85, 90 or 100 REAL watt H9 or H11

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Alaric Darconville

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But I use them as general purpose lights, including in fog. Sometimes need to sneak into a campground at 2:00am without unduly disturbing the other campers. Sometimes use the fogs by themselves as worklights for setting up camp, or for pulling other trucks out of the mud when I need to see stuff close to the ground.
How fast do you need to go when "sneaking into a camp" that you need that much more light? Won't making the fog lamps brighter be more likely to wake people up?

A separate work lamp might be better than the vehicle fog lamps. Maybe a "GoLight" or similar remote-controlled spotlight.

I am aware of the limitations of filament bulbs, but my preference is still mid-4000s when I have a choice for road lights.
Then filament headlamps aren't what you want, if you're that dead set on a higher CCT. The tinting on the bulbs that is necessary to bring it to that just steals useful light from the beam and leaves glaring, hard-to-process light instead. Your preference for that CCT is in direct opposition with your preference to actually SEE better.

My other "serious" truck is fitted with a set of 55W 4300K digital HID projector headlights

Sounds like one of those unsafe and illegal HID "kits" or similar "retrofit" -- there are no road-legal 55W HID headlamps, and headlamps are either HID or they're not. The "digital" designation is pure marketing nonsense that has no bearing on the performance of a lamp.

Have taken a lot of coursework in physiological psychology and have a pretty good understanding of how the eye and the brain work. But I'm not a lighting engineer or an auto electrician, that's where you guys come in.

Yet you seem dismissive of "us guys" rather than incorporating the advice you've been given with what you understand of how the eye and the brain work. The least of all this needing to be an electrician-- it's understanding how the human optical system works. It's understanding how our headlighting systems have been designed with how the human optical system works in mind. This is why we don't allow 55W HID headlamps. This is why turn signals and brake lamps have certain maximum and minimum output requirements at certain test points. More light does not immediately mean better lighting, whether you're sharing the road or the only person on the road.

I have found that yellow fogs are not very helpful when the vegetation surrounding the truck is mostly yellow and shades of brown at 3:00am, whether wet or dry. CRI does have some value when you are trying to pick a trail.
Blue light doesn't work very well on yellow surfaces, as not much is reflected back. I suppose that *could* help with contrasting objects being spotted.
Yellow light excites both the red and green receptors in our eyes. Blue targets the blue receptors. Your desire for a more blue light means that you're trying to see mostly by one receptor-- and with light that focuses in front of the retina. I realize that your bluer light is not *entirely* blue, but it has some of the same effects and is difficult for us to really see by.
 

-Virgil-

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My other "serious" truck is fitted with a set of 55W 4300K digital HID projector headlights, a pair of Hella fogs with 9011s

Fine if you never drive it on public roadways, but otherwise neither safe nor legal.

I have found that yellow fogs are not very helpful when the vegetation surrounding the truck is mostly yellow and shades of brown at 3:00am, whether wet or dry. CRI does have some value when you are trying to pick a trail.

Oh, no question about that -- but CRI and CCT aren't the same thing, and up until just now you've been talking in terms of CCT. Maximum CRI is from halogens. LEDs and HIDs are severely deficient in color rendering. However, LED and/or HID color rendering isn't inadequate, and it may be sufficient for your particular needs.

There's a very good thread about these matters here, and another (very densely scientific) here.
 

Ducky's Dad

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How fast do you need to go when "sneaking into a camp" that you need that much more light? Won't making the fog lamps brighter be more likely to wake people up?

A separate work lamp might be better than the vehicle fog lamps. Maybe a "GoLight" or similar remote-controlled spotlight.
Don't need to go fast, but need enough light to navigate and to be sure I don't run over some guy's dog. Need the brightness when I'm out in the field. Don't want to festoon this truck with add-ons. Everything is a compromise.

Then filament headlamps aren't what you want, if you're that dead set on a higher CCT. The tinting on the bulbs that is necessary to bring it to that just steals useful light from the beam and leaves glaring, hard-to-process light instead. Your preference for that CCT is in direct opposition with your preference to actually SEE better.
I'm not dead set on any particular CCT, but I know what works for me (and for most other humans). Mid-4000s is about the color of mid-day sunlight as you approach the equator, and the color of sunlight seems to work pretty well. Again, I don't use tinted bulbs. CCT can be somewhat elective with LEDs and HIDs and fluorescents, but I never want anything over 4600K on my vehicles, and survived for years with much lower. I don't want anything on the truck that reduces the amount of USABLE light. I want to SEE in a variety of conditions, so my lighting setup will necessarily be a compromise.

Sounds like one of those unsafe and illegal HID "kits" or similar "retrofit" -- there are no road-legal 55W HID headlamps, and headlamps are either HID or they're not.
The headlights are very definitely illegal, not even close to being DOT-approved ON MY TRUCK. But they work, I don't get tickets, and other drivers do not flash me. The factory headlights were dangerously deficient and I tried a bunch of less drastic fixes before I finally and reluctantly went to HIDs. If I get busted, I'll have to re-install the original crappy headlights. But that's not the issue here, because the Tundra is getting 9011s and those should be just fine in the high beams.

Yet you seem dismissive of "us guys"...It's understanding how our headlighting systems have been designed with how the human optical system works in mind...More light does not immediately mean better lighting, whether you're sharing the road or the only person on the road.
Not being dismissive of you guys, but I don't have to agree with you on everything, do I? Most would acknowledge that lighting systems on U.S.-spec vehicles have been marginally inadequate until very recently, and I'm trying to upgrade a 2008 vehicle. If I had a 2014 Tundra to play with, the factory lighting would be a whole lot better than what I'm dealing with. Ever notice that the lights on a new 911 are generally better than the lights on an old Kia? Everything is also designed to a price point. I want higher price point lights on a 2008 vehicle, and I want 2014 or better lighting performance at reasonable cost.


Blue light doesn't work very well on yellow surfaces, as not much is reflected back. I suppose that *could* help with contrasting objects being spotted.

Yellow light excites both the red and green receptors in our eyes. Blue targets the blue receptors. Your desire for a more blue light means that you're trying to see mostly by one receptor-- and with light that focuses in front of the retina. I realize that your bluer light is not *entirely* blue, but it has some of the same effects and is difficult for us to really see by.

When did I say I wanted blue light? 4300K is not blue in any real sense of the word, but it's not red either. The Tundra will have all halogen lighting on the front, unless I decide to add an LED light bar later, so color temps will be in the 3's. I'm just trying to find the right combination of cost and functionality.

Fine if you never drive it on public roadways, but otherwise neither safe nor legal.
Not legal but completely safe because I am careful with headlight adjustment. These are no worse than the projectors in newer Audis or Mercedes.

...but CRI and CCT aren't the same thing, and up until just now you've been talking in terms of CCT. Maximum CRI is from halogens. LEDs and HIDs are severely deficient in color rendering. However, LED and/or HID color rendering isn't inadequate, and it may be sufficient for your particular needs.

There's a very good thread about these matters here, and another (very densely scientific) here.
I am aware that they are not the same thing, but also aware that they are interrelated. With improvements in LED technology, the CRI crown does not necessarily go to halogens. I have seen spec sheets on architectural LEDs and high efficiency fluorescents wth CRI into the mid 90s. I just don't want to be shining yellow lights onto yellow weeds when I'm trying to get somewhere. I gave a quick read to one of your citations above, and will hit the other one later.

BTW, I'm still looking for the most bang for the buck on my Tundra lights. 9011's in the highs seems settled. H11+? or maybe H9 in the lows, and if I don't like one of those I'll try the other one. Will probably try 9155 in the fogs, but still hoping for something better. Could be that the Tundra just has crummy optics in the factory fogs, but will reevaluate when I get better bulbs in them. I can change out the fog lamp assemblies for something better, but it looks like I'm stuck with the factory headlight optics.

Thanks.
 

-Virgil-

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The headlights are very definitely illegal, not even close to being DOT-approved ON MY TRUCK.

Not sure why the all-caps "ON MY TRUCK" -- what point are you trying to make there? Note there is no such thing as "DOT approval". The "DOT" marking on a headlamp does not mean it's "approved". This might seem like a finicky point of semantics, but it's a useful quick tool for evaluating a vendor's bona fides. If you see someone hawking "DOT approved" lighting equipment, the vendor is either lying or deliberately ignorant and in either case is best avoided.

But they work

Contrary to what you would like to think, no -- they don't. They really are unsafe in very real ways you're obviously not considering.

I don't get tickets, and other drivers do not flash me

Both of those are nice, but they do not indicate that your lamps are safe.

Not legal but completely safe because I am careful with headlight adjustment. These are no worse than the projectors in newer Audis or Mercedes.

I can see why you would like to believe that, but neither of these statements are objectively true or correct

I don't have to agree with you on everything, do I?

Certainly not. There is room for a good range of preferences, your preferences aren't necessarily going to be the same as mine or his or hers, and that doesn't necessarily make any of us right or wrong. But there are opinions/preferences and then there are facts, and you know what they say: you're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. Sometimes there's more than one right answer, or a range of "rightness", but far more often than is commonly understood, there really is only one correct answer to a question related to lighting and human visual performance. Where opinions aren't aligned with that answer, there's going to be friction when someone wants to argue that the opinion's correct despite the facts.

Most would acknowledge that lighting systems on U.S.-spec vehicles have been marginally inadequate until very recently

I'm not sure if it's what you mean, but this treads very close to the common "wisdom" that US lighting standards are uniquely or especially bad (which often goes along with the idea, equally wrong, that European lighting standards are uniquely or especially good).

If I had a 2014 Tundra to play with, the factory lighting would be a whole lot better

That's actually not the case. The 2014 Tundra's headlamps have a single-pocket reflector with an HB2 (H4) bulb. This is early-1970s light source technology and early-1990s reflector technology. That's a big step down in technology and performance from the H11/HB3 headlamps on your 2008 model.


9011's in the highs seems settled. H11+? or maybe H9 in the lows

You've already been given clear info in this thread on why H9 bulbs do not belong in the low beams of that truck.
 
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Ducky's Dad

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Not sure why the all-caps "ON MY TRUCK" -- what point are you trying to make there?
The point I was trying to make is that there are legal HIDs being sold on new cars, and they have been on new cars since at least 2004 (Cadillac Escalade low beams). There may have been others prior to that. Vendor did not claim any approval or legality for my truck lights, and that was not a factor in my buying decision. Since there are compliant HIDs being sold on new cars, one could reasonably reach the conclusion that not all HIDs are ineffective or unsafe simply because they are HIDs. There are bad HIDs and there are better HIDs, and some actually work and are legal.

Contrary to what you would like to think, no -- they don't. They really are unsafe in very real ways you're obviously not considering.
Well, actually, mine work for my purposes. The truck in this case is a 2005 Dodge 2500 that came with the worst factory headlights I have ever owned, other than those on a 1939 Chevy. Best factory headlights I have ever owned were on a 1988 Jaguar XJ6 with quad sealed beams. Don't know why those were so good, but if the Dodge and the Tundra had those lights, we would not be having this discussion. Would like to hear your take on how the HIDs in the Dodge are unsafe in very real ways that I am not considering. I have considered the glare factor and I believe I have dealt with that. Would also appreciate your suggestions for other ways to improve the headlight performance in that truck (the Dodge).

you're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. Far more often than is commonly understood, there really is only one correct answer to a question related to lighting and human visual performance. Where opinions aren't aligned with that answer, there's going to be friction when someone wants to argue that the opinion's correct despite the facts.
My opinion is that the HIDs on the Dodge are better than anything else I had tried. The fact is that I like them better than anything else I had tried, and I am not aware of anything better for that vehicle at this point in time. Both my opinion and that fact are pretty much irrelevant to my original post because I am not considering HIDs for the Tundra.

I'm not sure if it's what you mean, but this treads very close to the common "wisdom" that US lighting standards are uniquely or especially bad (which often goes along with the idea, equally wrong, that European lighting standards are uniquely or especially good).
You may note that I said the U.S. specs were "marginally inadequate," not that they are or were uniquely or especially bad. U.S and European specs have differed over time, and I would give the edge in lighting performance to the Europeans, especially in the realm of high performance cars. U.S. specs seem to be catching up.

If I had a 2014 Tundra to play with, the factory lighting would be a whole lot better


That's actually not the case. The 2014 Tundra's headlamps have a single-pocket reflector with an HB2 (H4) bulb. This is early-1970s light source technology and early-1990s reflector technology. That's a big step down in technology and performance from the H11/HB3 headlamps on your 2008 model.
You may be right about the actual performance of the new lights, but I don't have any seat time in a 2014 at night, so need to do that at some point. I have had H4s in the past and was not a fan.

9011's in the highs seems settled. H11+? or maybe H9 in the lows


You've already been given clear info in this thread on why H9 bulbs do not belong in the low beams of that truck.
True, but that shouldn't preclude a bit of experimentation. The H11+? may be just fine but I won't know until I get a set in there.

Would still appreciate your recommendations on replacement fog lamps for the Tundra, re your earlier comment that the Vision-X are not that good. If I change the lamps, I want something that is plug-and-play, and I don't want to fabricate my own mounts. Tired of that stuff, just want to keep it simple on this truck. I may even have a buyer for the factory fogs.

I did read the tech threads you referenced earlier, and a lot of it seemed intuitively correct, but the most significant conclusion for me was that there is not a lot of consensus, even among those who seem to have some expertise.

Thanks.
 

-Virgil-

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The point I was trying to make is that there are legal HIDs being sold on new cars and they have been on new cars since at least 2004 (Cadillac Escalade low beams).

Since the early-mid 1990s, actually.

Vendor did not claim any approval or legality for my truck lights, and that was not a factor in my buying decision.

It should have been. It matters.

Since there are compliant HIDs being sold on new cars, one could reasonably reach the conclusion that not all HIDs are ineffective or unsafe simply because they are HIDs.

Er...no, not at all. There are compliant/safe and noncompliant/unsafe lamps of any/every type you might want to name, including HIDs. The existence of compliant/safe HIDs doesn't mean all HIDs are compliant/safe. The ones on your truck, as you've described them, are neither compliant nor safe. You say they "work for you", but what that attitude leaves out of the equation is that vehicle lights are interactive/public life safety equipment. The way they work affects the safety of not only yourself, but everyone else in proximity on the roads you drive. That's why whether a headlamp's design, construction, and performance is OK or not is a matter of public regulation rather than private opinion.

Best factory headlights I have ever owned were on a 1988 Jaguar XJ6 with quad sealed beams. Don't know why those were so good

They were adequate, and you liked them, but they weren't objectively very good. This is an excellent illustration of the problem with declaring headlamps good or bad based on how well you feel you can see with them when you drive at night. That might seem like a no-BS, common-sense, real-world metric, but it's actually the furthest thing from that. Our visual system is a very unreliable judge of its own performance. Human beings are not equipped to assess how well we can/can't see. Our subjective impressions on the matter are most often completely out of line with the objective, measurable reality of how well we can (or can't) see. It's not that we're deluded or fooling ourselves or telling ourselves lies or anything like that, it's that how well we feel we can see just doesn't match up with how well we really can see.

Would like to hear your take on how the HIDs in the Dodge are unsafe in very real ways that I am not considering. I have considered the glare factor and I believe I have dealt with that.

But you haven't. It can't be dealt with short of removing the 55w ballasts (and probable non-legitimate bulbs) and installing 35w ballasts and legitimate bulbs. For the moment let's ignore the substantial, real, and frequent problems with projector retrofits even if the projectors, bulbs, and ballasts are 100% legitimate parts (which they often are not). A D2S (or "D2S-like") bulb connected to a 55w ballast produces around 5,000 lumens. That's 56% more light than an automotive headlamp projector was designed to distribute, which means all intensity values are correspondingly 56% higher. Let's assume the projector has a sharp-cutoff low beam pattern with very low glare light levels above the cutoff, low enough that even if we increase them 56% we're still below the legal and technical acceptable maximum values. Fine, but we've also got 56% higher intensity below the cutoff, and other drivers are going to get zapped with dangerously high-intensity glare whenever their eye or mirror height happens to be below the cutoff. With the headlamp height on a truck such as you describe, that's going to happen very frequently. Common internet "wisdom" has you aiming the lamps downward to reduce this effect. That will indeed reduce the number of drivers exposed to your unsafe levels of glare (though God help the guy stuck in front of you in traffic) but it's also going to shorten your seeing distance to a level incompatible with ordinary road speeds. The seeing distance given by any particular aim angle can easily be determined with trigonometry. Small increases in the downward angle take very large bites out of your seeing distance.

But wait! There's more! The foreground illumination is also 56% brighter, and that has a triple-whammy effect on safety. The intensely-lit foreground causes your eyes' irises to constrict the same as they do in response to any bright light, which causes your distance visual ability to absolutely nosedive. The brighter the foreground, the less you can see beyond the foreground -- literally "blinded by the light". This is aggravated (the second whammy) by the unfortunate response of the human visual system to a brightly-lit foreground: our gaze is drawn to it, no matter how we might consciously strive to look down the road. So not only are we not looking where we need to be looking for safety, but the gravitation of our gaze toward the brightly-lit foreground further reduces our dark-adaptation (constricts our pupils), exacerbating the first whammy.

At the same time (third whammy), the brighter the foreground, the "better" the headlamps' performance seems/feels to us. This is really insidious; it means simultaneously we think we have superior seeing and we actually have inferior seeing. It's because by a very large margin, the top determinant of a driver's subjective ratings of how good their headlamps are is foreground light, but foreground light is an almost vanishingly minor factor in a headlamp's actual safety performance. Of course you need some foreground light for lane maintenance and comfort/confidence, but only very little is needed. Many HID headlamps, even with standard 35w bulbs and ballasts, already produce much more foreground light than is needed or optimal; increasing it with a 55w bulb means the safety performance of the headlamp is objectively quite a lot worse.

These are some(!) of the reasons why our own subjective impressions (and internet "reviews") of a headlamp setup really are useless (or worse than useless), and they'd still be useless-at-best even if we disregard the bogus criteria often used in such "reviews" (shape and/or sharpness of cutoff, European vs US specs, etc.)

Would also appreciate your suggestions for other ways to improve the headlight performance in that truck (the Dodge).

I'd probably start with legitimate-maker 35w ballasts and these bulbs, but what else really depends how much of a bill of goods you were sold. Many/most projector retrofits aren't safe for reasons most retrofitters and buyers don't consider, but there are projector retrofits that are reasonably safe and effective despite not being legally compliant because they haven't been tested or certified. Aside from the issues in the "reasons" link in this paragraph, the projectors themselves are a frequent problem area. The aftermarket ones -- Morimoto, for example, and the ones designed as knockoffs of various OE projectors -- are all (yes, all) unsafe trash.

You may note that I said the U.S. specs were "marginally inadequate," not that they are or were uniquely or especially bad. U.S and European specs have differed over time, and I would give the edge in lighting performance to the Europeans

Depends on exactly what we mean to criticize or appreciate. The European lighting standards don't (and never have) required better performance than the US standards or vice versa, it's just that the aspects of superiority and inferiority differ between the two regs, which means the ways in which a European-spec light tends to be better or worse than its US-spec counterpart differ accordingly. In some cases (but by no means all cases), European makers have tended to put higher-performing lights on their European-spec vehicles than on their US-spec vehicles, and it's definitely true that until recently there was almost exclusive European-brand (and then European/Asian-brand leadership in lighting technology in the US market -- availability of Xenon headlamps, adaptive/steering headlamps, etc.

True, but that shouldn't preclude a bit of experimentation

H9 bulbs in the low beams of your Tundra: an unsafe modification for solid reasons that have already been explained. No experiment needed or valuable.

Would still appreciate your recommendations on replacement fog lamps for the Tundra

There is no direct-fit, plug/play fog lamp, other than an OE Toyota item, that is worth going with. Any upgrade from the factory fogs would be an external/custom-mount job, which you say you don't want, so...it's going to be factory fogs!

I did read the tech threads you referenced earlier, and a lot of it seemed intuitively correct, but the most significant conclusion for me was that there is not a lot of consensus, even among those who seem to have some expertise.

But there is, on some of the important basic facts you don't seem to want to accept.

(By the way, ref. the title of this thread: wattage is not a measure of light.)
 
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Ducky's Dad

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I ordered bulbs today for the Tundra: 9011/HIR1 for the highs; 9155 for the fogs; H9 for the lows. The factory low-beam bucket has a built-in glare cap, so it seems the the H9 is the way to go. I can always go back to H11+ if the H9 doesn't work out. Thanks for the advice and opinions.
 

-Virgil-

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The factory low-beam bucket has a built-in glare cap, so it seems the the H9 is the way to go.

You were told why not to use an H9. You've ignored that and substituted an incorrect (but convenient) assumption about what that bulb shield does. You're about to do something dangerous and ill-advised, and you don't seem to care.

I can always go back to H11+ if the H9 doesn't work out.

Which you're planning on judging...how?

Thanks for the advice and opinions.

It's always cool and refreshing to see someone who does not know what he's doing ask for advice from those who do...and then build a spurious case for ignoring the advice they've received.
 

Ducky's Dad

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From one of your previous posts, 12-23-2009, 04:36 PM

[h=2]
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Re: Difference between H9 and H11 bulbs?[/h]
It's basically a matter of different filament with different characteristics. The H9 has a 65w (nominal) filament optimized for maximum luminance and flux at the expense of shorter lifespan. The H11 has a 55w (nominal) filament optimized for long life at the expense of lower luminance and flux. Both bulbs have equal filament precision, etc.

I'm not building any spurious case, but I am trying to improve the lighting performance of the vehicle, to suit my purposes. I am going to judge the performance of the H9s by how well I can see when the lights are on, and by how they look to oncoming drivers. Very subjective, no bench test data involved, kind of like listening to audiophile equipment and trying to pick a set of speakers you like. You think it's dangerous and ill-advised. Obviously ill-advised, based on your advice. Dangerous? I don't think so, but I may change my opinion once I get them installed. I'll figure out what works for me, and then I'll quit looking for improvements until something better comes along. Thanks.
 

-Virgil-

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OK, first you picked the presence of a bulb shield to hang your "H9 is fine" case on. That got pointed out as wrong, now you're picking filament precision. Neither is a solid basis for your position.

Keep in mind that your vehicle's exterior lights are life-safety equipment that must work correctly not just for you, but for everyone else you share the road with. The danger comes from unsafe levels of glare (real and objective, not convenient subjective). Tip the lamp aim down to ameliorate the glare, and you've got inadequate seeing distance. It's really just that simple (again). But given that you are bound and determined not to hear it, Rule 11 comes into effect and this thread's closed.
 
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