The Titan: all looks lost

[alpg88]

There are scuba tanks made of CF that hold up to 4500psi, but they are made as a pressure tanks from the start, This guy loved using off the shelf components, maybe his CF hull was really repurposed something else. not made as a sub hull to hold up to 10k psi. There is a reason vacuum tanks have those heavy rings around them.

 

[hsa]

That was a great video.

 

[Stress_Test]

Man, the more I read about that CEO, the worse it gets. This is from a CBS article interview ( https://www.cbsnews.com/news/titani...-transcript-with-oceangate-ceo-stockton-rush/ )

And I don't know if it was MacArthur, but somebody said, "You're remembered for the rules you break." And that's the fact. And there were a lot of rules out there that didn't make engineering sense to me.

They made sense at the time in the '60s and '70s, and yet there was a whole industry of people who are just gonna, "Hey, this is how you do it, nobody's been hurt in a commercial sub in 35 years—they're the safest vehicles on the planet."

But you know, there's a limit. You know, at some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed, don't get in your car, don't do anything. At some point you're gonna take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I said, "I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules."

POGUE: Wow.

RUSH: And a lot of people didn't like that. (LAUGH)

Bold sections highlighted by me. This first one regarding rules: those traditional rules that "don't make sense" are often written in blood after an incident (or multiple incidents). I've read some ASME pressure vessel code before and some history involved, and there were some horrendous accidents with many fatalities that resulted from failed vessels. Which is why the things require such high safety factors, and have such stringent design standards and regulations.

The second part is even worse. I've heard that "safety" argument before (from engineers even!) and it makes me want to beat my head on the table each time. All I can advise is this, if someone starts making that argument, then you need to walk away from whatever endeavor they are trying to convince you to do; undersea voyage, experimental aircraft ride, mountain expedition, whatever.

It's a vast, vast oversimplification of risk, and no engineer worth his salt is gonna give a glib sound-bite answer like that when someone is questioning the safety of his project.

 

[SYZYGY]

But you know, there's a limit. You know, at some point, safety just is pure waste. I mean, if you just want to be safe, don't get out of bed, don't get in your car, don't do anything. At some point you're gonna take some risk, and it really is a risk/reward question. I said, "I think I can do this just as safely by breaking the rules."

the part in bold is clearly a bad assumption. obviously it's not "just as safe" lol.

however, there is some merit to what he said.

because of the endeavor, he got to see the titanic a bunch of times. other people did, too. there was basically no other practical way for most people to go down there and see it in person without heavy investment (way more than $250k). for all the previous passengers, the risk/reward paid off.

depends how much value you place on adventure.

 

[Stress_Test]

Granted yes, but he was acting too much like a carnival barker and downplaying the risks to clients who didn't know any better. He also liked to mention Boeing and Nasa involvement, but at the end of the article there is this:

Editor's Note:

Boeing provided "CBS News Sunday Morning" with the following statement: "Boeing was not a partner on the Titan and did not design or build it."

NASA also told AL.com this week that it "did not conduct testing and manufacturing (of the submersible) via its workforce or facilities."

The University of Washington's Applied Physics Laboratory stated this week that its prior work with OceanGate resulted in a different vessel that could travel to a depth of just 500 meters (or one-third of a mile), named the Cyclops 1.

"The Laboratory was not involved in the design, engineering or testing of the Titan submersible used in the RMS Titanic expedition," UW told the Daily Herald of Everett, Wash.

Hell of a disclaimer, eh? Not the first time I've seen unscrupulous small companies pull this kind of crap. They exchange a few emails with Nasa then their web page says "Designed in partnership with Nasa!!"

NO

 

[idleprocess]

There are scuba tanks made of CF that hold up to 4500psi, but they are made as a pressure tanks from the start

There are innumerous carbon fiber positive pressure vessels out there in the world; ~10K PSI/~700 bar-rated carbon fiber hydrogen tanks are a staple of hydrogen fuel cell vehicle design and they've proven to be reliable and safe. The issue with the likes of the Titan seems to be the use of CF for a negative pressure vessel; perhaps had the design / operational procedures been amenable to thorough scanning of the hull between dives it would prove sufficiently reliable ... but in the end it seemed like an irredeemably flawed cost-saving measure.

 

[SYZYGY]

i have what i believe is basically a CF SCBA tank to recharge my air rifles
i get it refilled at a dive shop.

this whole story immediately reminded me of it. unlike the submersible, it's multi-axially wound.

 

[alpg88]

There are innumerous carbon fiber positive pressure vessels out there in the world; ~10K PSI/~700 bar-rated carbon fiber hydrogen tanks are a staple of hydrogen fuel cell vehicle design and they've proven to be reliable and safe. The issue with the likes of the Titan seems to be the use of CF for a negative pressure vessel; perhaps had the design / operational procedures been amenable to thorough scanning of the hull between dives it would prove sufficiently reliable ... but in the end it seemed like an irredeemably flawed cost-saving measure.

Well, of course, vast majority of pressure tanks are positive pressure, so they are designed that way, if someone was to design a negative pressure CF tank, it would be designed and built differently, no different than steel pressure and vacuum tanks.

 

[kerneldrop]

I have no desire to go below the surface or up in space. I'm just as amazed with people wanting to colonize Mars.

 

[idleprocess]

Well, of course, vast majority of pressure tanks are positive pressure, so they are designed that way, if someone was to design a negative pressure CF tank, it would be designed and built differently, no different than steel pressure and vacuum tanks.

A quick glance at some of the articles I've read previously suggests that carbon fiber's performance under extreme tension is exceptional; it's compressive strength less so as resin strength problems can lead to delamination.

Composites World has an article on an OceanGate vessel named Cyclops 2 whose description is awfully similar to the ill-fated Titan.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

Titanic - Titan. Who was the genius that came up with that name?

 

[vadimax]

Titanic - Titan. Who was the genius that came up with that name?

As far as I know sailors consider this a terribly bad sign -- naming a vessel by the name of a dead one.

P.S.: When you charge a quarter of a million for one dive, but skip on a regular and proper technical inspection.

 

[alpg88]

A quick glance at some of the articles I've read previously suggests that carbon fiber's performance under extreme tension is exceptional; it's compressive strength less so as resin strength problems can lead to delamination.

Composites World has an article on an OceanGate vessel named Cyclops 2 whose description is awfully similar to the ill-fated Titan.

Lol, articles only suggest, they do not prove it is impossible. if we found a way to build a huge plane ,H4, out of pine and poplar i have no doubt it is possible to design a sub hull from CF, maybe the resin needs to be different, maybe the way they wrap the fibers,, different curing process....... etc. whether it worth it, is a different story,

 

[LRJ88]

Titanic - Titan. Who was the genius that came up with that name?

The Wreck of the Titan: Or, Futility - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This'll crack you up.

 

[vadimax]

The Wreck of the Titan: Or, Futility - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This'll crack you up.

OK, it was inevitable. I wonder how many millions have died because of crystal clear ignorance? But to step on the same rake twice...

 

[ironhorse]

Is it too soon to call the radio station and request Yellow Submarine?
And you're welcome for putting that song in your head.

 

[pnwoutdoors]

I just read today that a former employee was raising concern about a window port of some kind that wasn't certified to the full depth, only about half as much. Guy ended up getting fired.

All of which will get dragged out into the open during the nearly-inevitable civil lawsuits against the firm and it's controlling few. Of course, the company's already spoken of begging the courts to limit its financial exposure. As though erasure of disincentives will help anybody except the "oops" class who crafted the thing. But I digress ...

Condolences to the families of those who perished. But, life gets pretty "real" when heading into the nose-bleeds in a beta vehicle. Is what it is.

Triton might be getting a few calls from tour operators, in the near future.

Triton 36000/2 - Full Ocean Depth | Triton Submarines

The world's only submersible certified to repeatedly dive to the deepest part of the ocean, in the Mariana Trench, at 11,000 meters.

tritonsubs.com

 

[idleprocess]

Is it too soon to call the radio station and request Yellow Submarine?
And you're welcome for putting that song in your head.

Views of Titanic have reportedly spiked on streaming services. One wonders if those receiving residuals will remit to the families of the deceased.

Of course, the company's already spoken of begging the courts to limit its financial exposure. As though erasure of disincentives will help anybody except the "oops" class who crafted the thing.

Firm might as well go through Chapter 7 bankruptcy - liabilities exceed assets, the viability of the enterprise is nil (thus future funding/revenue is all but impossible), and the accident claimed the life of its CEO. Lawsuits will go after anyone and everyone at the firm with any connection to the Titan; I expect nearly all will be able to point to communications on record where the CEO overrode duty of care concerns and avoid liability.

Triton might be getting a few calls from tour operators, in the near future.

Triton 36000/2 - Full Ocean Depth | Triton Submarines

The world's only submersible certified to repeatedly dive to the deepest part of the ocean, in the Mariana Trench, at 11,000 meters.

tritonsubs.com

Ah so they can produce another Limiting Factor should they choose.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

Views of Titanic have reportedly spiked on streaming services.

I sat through the movie once. Hated it! So sad. I couldn't fathom how people were able to watch it time and again.

 

[Monocrom]

Standard carbon fiber is made to replace components that can still function properly at a much lighter weight. Thing is, standard carbon fiber is relatively fragile. Somehow this fact seems to be ignored nowadays.