Battery explosion with Fenix P1D

Well, it looks to me like there is a puncture in the battery:


And with respect to single cell problems, this is what I would look for:

MorePower said:

...

Draining a single cell down to "nothing" in a light should be perfectly safe. We did this all the time, although we didn't use lights for the discharge, to prevent them from shorting and starting fires when disposed of.

Single cells will be more prone to venting if they have been abused (dropped, dented, etc), if they get too hot, or if they were of poor quality to begin with....

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Hence, always inspect a battery before using it....

Eu

Morepower, really great to hear your input and experience! Thanks!

Also, wanted to note in this thread that the newer AW Li-Ions have most if not more than the extra protective features shown with Pila images.

Art Vandelay said:

Would it be possible to create a safety feature that would prevent the charging of non-rechargeable batteries.

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I really wonder why cant they simply throw a Schottky diode somewhere between the contacts...I mean gee, how expensive can an diode be compared to say, ruining ones health on the long run:sick2:

Illum_the_nation said:

simply throw a Schottky diode somewhere between the contacts...

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Like your thinking.

A schottky, however, would drop 0.5-0.6V at the sort of current (>1A) drawn by the brighter lights. And the heat dissipated would be inside the cell, so I'm not convinced a Schottky is the answer.

But that said, maybe some sort of biassed MosFet to do the same thing...

I've posted this link before and will gladly post it again. Everybody should read this great info from Duracell on Lithium Primaries safety features.

http://www.duracell.com/oem/primary/Lithium/safety.asp#design

Remember that any voltage drop, even if it's only 100mV, would change the charging behaviour. I guess the "best" that could happen would be a slight undercharge of 100mV.

Someone mentioned Panasonic cells from HK.....a friend of mine ordered a few. They seemed perfectly normal, but upon closer examination I noticed that the label said "Matsushita Elestric".

Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion

cliff said:

I can understand how a light with two batteries might explode, but how does this happen with a single battery light?

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my GUESS is that there are multiple failure modes for a Li cell (primary or secondary Li-ion cells).

the simplistic panacea one cell charging another does fit the description of even some multi-cell explosions, IMO and non-explosion experience with a weakened pole-reversed cell in a pair.

obviously, the weak cell failure mode couldn't be the case here with just one cell.

according to some reading i've done, a Li cell (and Li-ion cell too) can develop an internal short if it is discharged too deeply under use.

my GUESS is that what happened here is that the cell shorted or produced a very, very low resistance path internal to the battery. either that or it just heated up too much due to 1) the P1D being on PRIMARY OR MAX output for a long period of time, and/or 2) something insulating the P1D so that heat could NOT be more effectively dissipated.

it is well known that Li and Li-ion cells can experience "thermal runaway" - the thermal equivalent of regenerative feedback. so, all the cell needs to do is heat itself up to a certain point and the outcome is a foregone conclusion, removing the load from the cell and even dumping the cell out of the hot flashlight will NOT stop the inevitable outcome once the thermal runaway boundary is crossed - the cell is now in thermal runaway an the outcome is perhaps inevitable - at least that's how i read the numerous articles and posts on the subject.

doc_felixander said:

Remember that any voltage drop, even if it's only 100mV, would change the charging behaviour. I guess the "best" that could happen would be a slight undercharge of 100mV.

Someone mentioned Panasonic cells from HK.....a friend of mine ordered a few. They seemed perfectly normal, but upon closer examination I noticed that the label said "Matsushita Elestric".

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Yep that is exactly what mine say and they are now in the bin.
Just proves you get what you pays for :sigh:

EDIT:



It is also mentioned in this thread, post #40.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2069115

Doc_felixander, fluke:

Err, okay, a bit paranoid are we?

Panasonic is a brand name that Matsushita uses. Panasonic is also the only name brand that they use in the USA I am aware of. If you have any Panasonic electronics, then you have been happily using Matsushita products. Japanese cells are perfectly fine, and indeed Surefire has been known to have rebranded Panasonic cells at some point. I think, however, Surefire is rebranding Energizers now. But if you don't want 'em, I'd be happy to take them off your hands for free; I'll even pay shipping.

Sure.
But 'ELESTRIC'?

carrot said:

Doc_felixander, fluke:

Err, okay, a bit paranoid are we?

Panasonic is a brand name that Matsushita uses. Panasonic is also the only name brand that they use in the USA I am aware of. If you have any Panasonic electronics, then you have been happily using Matsushita products. Japanese cells are perfectly fine, and indeed Surefire has been known to have rebranded Panasonic cells at some point. I think, however, Surefire is rebranding Energizers now. But if you don't want 'em, I'd be happy to take them off your hands for free; I'll even pay shipping.

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Paranoid ???
Yes...
I am happy with anything Panasonic, but, misspelling electric ???
I would rather not take the chance to be honest.
Bit late for the cells, sorry I would have shipped them out but they are past saving now :mecry:

Anyone got any US Panasonics to check spelling ???

I have contacted Panasonic UK to get an answer they are going to get back to me.

Personally I would write it off as a typo. Have you seen Engrish.com? There are much worse English mistakes I am aware of. :shrug:

Fluke's "Panasonic" cells came from China, via eBay, and he was quite right to decide not to use them. They had been nowhere near Japan at any stage - they were cheapo knock-offs, pure and simple.

I write it off as a typo on knock-off cells.
This one simple difference doesn't make them a legitimate brand and most probably wouldn't prevent Matsushita from kicking their ***.

I will post results once Panasonic get back to me, but the lady in the Battery department said it more than likely a fake.

carrot, chevrofreak has some real Panasonic cells and there is no typo in "Electric" on those. For the others, Matsushita is indeed the company behind Panasonic.

Sorry to hijack this thread... a while!

carrot said:

Personally I would write it off as a typo. Have you seen Engrish.com? There are much worse English mistakes I am aware of. :shrug:

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You really point me to have some real break...





I bet there will be more on that site after the 2008 Old-Lamp-Pic

ELESTRIC? This is just like my friends knock-off panasonics. They have that spelling, and came from china really cheaply...

Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion

cliff said:

I'm still trying to figure out how this type of thing can happen with a single cell. If it is even remotely possible, it could logically happen with any brand of battery.

Also, how do you exercise caution with a single-cell light? Other than holding the light with welding gloves I'm stumped.

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The seal was damaged on this cell. It sucked in a "breath" of water vapor and Air which reacted with a boom. Simple stuff.

Thurmond

Re: Fenix P1D after battery explosion

Tritium said:

The seal was damaged on this cell. It sucked in a "breath" of water vapor and Air which reacted with a boom. Simple stuff.

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What makes you think that is what happened in this case?