Does Surefire make the best of everything?

Bluehinder

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Yo,

I know this is a little bit of a teaser question, but at every level, total output, regulation, dual modes, LED, hotwire, toughness factor, smallness factor, reliability, inovation, doesn't it seem like they lead the pack?

There are certainly some pioneers like Mr. Bulk, and McGizmo who are showing us the way, but for most people like you and I, and the US military and most LEO, and people who want a package and warranty, that Surefire has the market to themselves?

Streamlight and UK seem to have carved out a tiny slice of the pie.

What lights do you think beat SF at their respective entry points? E2E seems tops to me, M6 rules, L4 is outstanding, A2 is great, etc.

What do you think? Have I had too much wine? :)

What a great hobby. I got a new Jil today and love it as much as any SF.

Blue
 

270winchester

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Pretty much, yeah. There may be off shore imitations and extravegant claims from competitors, but the combination of quality, design, function, and HONEST MARKETING makes Surefire the top in my book. Not counting the smaller custom makers that is....
 

Dogliness

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Bluehinder said:
I know this is a little bit of a teaser question, but at every level, total output, regulation, dual modes, LED, hotwire, toughness factor, smallness factor, reliability, inovation, doesn't it seem like they lead the pack?

. . . .

What do you think? Have I had too much wine? :)

What a great hobby. I got a new Jil today and love it as much as any SF.

Blue

You can never have too much wine.

I love Surefire lights. However, when it comes to very small LED flashlights with high output, it seems to me that Surefire is nowhere to be found. Did you get the Jil 1.3? Does Surefire have anything that small?
 

Lightedge

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Laser Devices makes some VERY nice stuff but doesn't have the breadth of product line. Similarly pricey as well. Pila rates very high on the list as well, especially the GL's with LED's in the tailcap. Well built, innovative products powered by lithium or Li-Ion. Both are terrific makers.

All other manufacturers have carved out lower end markets in my opinion although Streamlight tends to offer about 80%-85% the product for less than half the price. Not a bad combo.
 

Bluehinder

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Hi,

Jil scores on this one. SF doesn't have a dog in this fight, but you get the feeling that if they wanted to play in this arena, they could put up a good fight. I hope they don't because this is the area where there is so much inovation going on, ie, McLux IIIPD, HDS and LionCub. I sense HDS is the SF equivelant here.

I got the DD (up) and liked so much I ordered the 1.3 today. The DD is a fantastic light, I got it over the 1.3 so that I could use RCR2, plus it's smaller. It displaced a number of Peak lights and the Arc AAAP.

I'm going to play with the 1.3 and give the loser to my brother.

Blue
 

Somy Nex

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SF makes good stuff, and they are the leaders of their pack, but their pack doesn't really cover everything :)

there're of course the custom makers, but also HDS which has a great small light package, pelican & streamlight which have a stronger foothold in rescue operations lights, underwater kinetics which make dive lights, etc.

then there're also different markets for the cheaper lights, such as the fenix et al. for uses where a SF may be overkill. just like me.. i don't *really* need a SF for anything. i have a few, but when am i going to make *full* use of them? there are others who will and do, but to be brutally honest with myself, my fenix and microlight serves 99% of my everyday purposes well enough =P
 

Dogliness

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Blue:

I know this is a little off topic, but I would be interested to hear which you light you like better, the Jill DD or 1.3. I debated between the two, and then ordered the 1.3. I do not particularly like rechargeable batteries in flashlights, and thought I would prefer a regulated light. But the smaller size of the DD was VERY tempting.

Dog
 

BlackDecker

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Bluehinder said:
Yo,

I know this is a little bit of a teaser question, but at every level, total output, regulation, dual modes, LED, hotwire, toughness factor, smallness factor, reliability, inovation, doesn't it seem like they lead the pack?


Blue

You forgot one key word in that sentence.... PRICE. Sure they make great lights, but I go for quantity in lights, even at the sacrifice of some quality.
 

carrot

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I would much rather have a few quality lights than a stack of inferior ones. And what is this Jil I keep hearing about? I tried Googling and couldn't find anything that seemed relevant.
 

Bluehinder

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Dog,

I didn't want to leave you hanging, but I just ordered the Jil 1.3 last night, don't have it yet.

I got the DD because I have been looking for the ultimate keychain light. It number one, has to be small, and bright. Plus, this is the light I screw around with everyday. After work I walk to my car through a parking lot that is admitedly well lite and safe, but in the dark I just like to play around, flashing friends, looking at cars, looking at reflections, wasting time, burning lumens, etc, basically wasting volts and time. The CR2's are expensive little critters, and I wouldn't do what I do if I had to pay for it. With a simple $6 Nano and one RCR2 I can play without guilt and with impunity. The tiny bit of brightness the 1.3 has is meaningless to me in the above, plus it's much smaller. The Arc's and Peaks just seem puny now, and I have most of them with the HO heads.

I am sure that you will love the 1.3. The DD just lets you use it more. Hell, if I want output I will bring out the SF E2E I keep in my coat.

Blue
 

CLHC

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Interesting question. I'm a bit partial when it comes to SureFire's products and have always been satisified with them.

In my opinion, I believe that Streamlight dominates the "rechargeable" flashlights realm. Other's are carving out a niche for themselves with their seemingly "one liners" such as ARC, HDS Systems, Laser Devices, Peak Solutions among others.

If I remember correctly, SureFire said that they build to obsoletion—meaning they keep up with the times and move on to improving. . . (?)
 

270winchester

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CHC said:
Interesting question. I'm a bit partial when it comes to SureFire's products and have always been satisified with them.

In my opinion, I believe that Streamlight dominates the "rechargeable" flashlights realm. Other's are carving out a niche for themselves with their seemingly "one liners" such as ARC, HDS Systems, Laser Devices, Peak Solutions among others.

If I remember correctly, SureFire said that they build to obsoletion—meaning they keep up with the times and move on to improving. . . (?)

Remember CHC that Surefire is the only major manufacturer that also sells a huge amount of Lithium batteries. (they already have a full line of rechargable lights that are very nice and compact). Going full steam into the rechargable market wouldserious damage the sale of the 123 which over the years can amount to expense that mase the lights look like free. Just imagine a printer, they can practically give them away but the manufactruers make most of the money by selling replacement cartridges....
 

dougmccoy

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Perhaps the question here is which market does Surefire dominate in? IMO they are now THE market leader in tactical lights. The performance, quality and the excellent guarantee they offer makes it a no brainer for the military and LEO marketplace. However, like madecov said, I think that Nite-Ops will be trying to close that gap with equally good products.

Remember that Surefire have dominated the tactical market for years and any pretender to the throne will have to be well established and with serious financial clout to even think of competing. In this respect I think Nite-Ops is well placed to try.

Streamlights products are without doubt an exceptional compromise between performance and price and offer a range of lights which are affordable as well as functional. After all who amongst us hasn't wanted the best light out there only to have to accept the reality of our own purse? In this case many would want Surefire but buy Streamlight?

I believe that other manufacturers of flashlights will continually turn out well made products and some will be exceptional either on price or performance. However, I personally don't think at this moment in time that Surefire has anything to worry about. In the next few years things could change and you can be sure that we will all be watching as events unfold.

Doug
 

jclarksnakes

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For many years Surefire has dominated the relatively small high end and tactical sectors of the entire flashlight market. While they had the high end covered Maglite thoroughly dominated the much larger general flashlight industry. However, in the last few years there have been BIG advances by other companies most notably Streamlight but also MANY smaller companies coming in with amazingly good products. These products run the gamut from the very lowest of the low end at miniscule prices to in some cases the very top of flashlight quality and technology. I love my Surefires and they look and have the feel like they are extremely durable and reliable but they are not the flashlights that I carry and use all the time. IMO Surefire and Maglite both need to be working very hard in research and development if they want to continue with their dominance of the flashlight market.

123 batteries? Perception is reality. The general public has the very real perception that these batteries ARE expensive. Unless you are a serious flashlight guy or gal you are not going to be looking very far on the internet to find them at reasonable prices. Until 123s are displayed prominently in major brick and mortar stores for less than a buck fifty the public will continue with their perception that 123s are expensive. No flashlight maker will be able to take a big share of the general flashlight market with lights burning "expensive" 123s. I think the big voltage in a small package from a 123 is the way to go with flashlight technology but for now I mostly pick up and use my flashlights that are loaded with rechargeable AAs and the general public is going to buy flashlights that use the inexpensive batteries they see in the stores.
jclarksnakes
 
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Cornkid

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I go for quality.. That's why I love Surefire.

The people working for them do seem quite ignorant though.. Its too bad that such a good company doesnt employ some CPFers. We could drastically increase their revenue.

-tom
 

Kiessling

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When quality and perfection are concerned, SF is the top player for sure. You'll have to pay for owning the best though.

BUT ... their range of lights isn't complete ... I am missing a nice multi-level reflectores LuxIII light in the E2e size-class ... or a reflectored LuxIII light at all. I am not a big fan of those TIR optics although I admire the performance they offer and I can see the use for them.

bernie
 

Size15's

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jclarksnakes said:
However, in the last few years there have been BIG advances by other companies most notably Streamlight...

:wtf: Such as?!
Are you serious?


jclarksnakes said:
IMO Surefire and Maglite both need to be working very hard in research and development if they want to continue with their dominance of the flashlight market.

I didn't think I'd ever see a comment like that!

SureFire likely spend more on R&D then the rest of the flashlight industry combined.
Working with SAIC and LumiLeds, SureFire is part of a DARPA research project that is already pushing technology forward and production models based on this research and development are likely to be released next year. I expect them to be showcased at the SHOT Show in February.

There is no sign of R&D slowing at SureFire - the opposite in fact. Certainly we want to see them continue to push further. SureFire is an R&D driven company - always has been.

Maglite on the otherhand is the complete opposite from SureFire in that it maintains it's market-share through legal domination and mass-marketing with no visible R&D for what could be almost a decade. If they spent half of what they do on lawyers on R&D instead they wouldn't need the lawyers because they'd be keeping ahead of the pack rather than fighting them off.

Al
 

jclarksnakes

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Al,
....In your first question I think you are asking for examples where Streamlight and other companies have made advances. The most notable examples are Luxeons in highly reliable and often small packages and some of them at amazingly low prices. The SL Propoly Luxeons and Luxeon Tasklights come to mind first on the low price end. And you are probably gonna say that they are not competitive with Surefires and you would be right. They are not as bulletproof as Surefires but many people who would have been buying a SF for serious uses are buying these lights instead. Surefire had the high end market covered and these lights are a lower cost alternative and are selling well and taking away market share. Follow those lights with the Peaks and new Fenixes and Amilites and many others in the mid price ranges. At the higher end of the price range are McLuxes, Night Ops and others. Many of these are good lights and they are selling well in niches that Surefire is not competing in or if it is competing these other lights are beating Surefire on price and/or perceived value. Some of these lights are selling for Surefire price levels even. You are right that Surefire spends a lot on R&D. That R&D is of great interest to the military users and also to we flashaholics, but the general public is not aware of that R&D and does not care too much about it. They want good flashlights at reasonable prices. They see good flashlights that SEEM to them as good as Surefires or at least almost as good for lots less money and they are buying those light in big numbers. Granted Surefire still has a firm advantage with the military and law enforcement customers but even LEOs are looking increasingly at and buying Streamlight and others. The Stingers and Strions are increasingly taking LEO market share away from Surefire. Hopefully you are right and Surefire will come out with products in 2006 that give it better coverage of the entire high end market. BTW, it sounds like you and I totally agree on Mag and their short sided view of the market and product development. Where we are probably both wrong is that Mag will probably continue to do well. The general public still has the perception that Maglights are good lights because for so many years maglights were so much better than everything else they could buy cheap in the local store. It will take a long time for better low cost alternatives to change that perception.
Jeff
 
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