How to make a Real Surefire M6 competitor??

I've read most of the threads about the m6 and it's usually in a comparo pic with a modded maglite... now what I would like to do is make a similar light in a similar body with a lower cost...

I thought I would go the ROP route but I do not want to use rechargables... I think a distinct advantage the m6 has is it only needs 6 cr123a's... no charger or battery pack...

I'm not sure the exact runtime of the m6 but I would like something with similar output, slightly lower or higher [600 Real lumen], in a flashlight that can last at least one hour... I already have a 4D maglite so using that would be a plus but if another Mag size is better or another host is better let me hear it.

I would prefer to run it on plane old alkalines as they are readily available, the lithium AA's are really expensive so let's keep them out of this one...

What I have come to believe is if I modded the switch to lower the resistance, got an aluminum reflector, a boroflat lense, 4 x D--> 3AA adapters and a voltage regulation circuit I could probably run a ROP bulb or similar for an hour at least (12 x AA batteries), with similar output to a Surefire albeit slightly larger... would 12 AA's be too much for a regulation circuit to bring down to 7.2v?

Advice appreciated!

Alkalines cannot handle the High ampeage draw these high output bulb demand. You need to run High output battery's like the sanyo 2500Mah cells. so Alkalines wont cut it


Mac

Well the distinct disadvantage the Surefire M6 has is that after about an hour you need to drop another $36 plus tax retail on batteries. Even at $6 wholesale + shipping per hour, you're spending a lot of 'cabbage' on batteries if you use your light more than a few times per month. The M6 is the Cadillac Escalade of the flashlight world - an excessively glutonous name brand status symbol for flashoholics with deep pockets. It's truely American and I wish I had one.

That said, you'll never get that level of performance out of alkalines without a significant technological investment or running lots of cells in parallel. Running cells in parallel will lower the amperage draw on each series of cells, but will probably require a large or custom bodied flashlight and custom battery holders. And again you will have created a glutonous pig of a flashlight that eats 18-24 AAs per hour just so you can have the larges... umm, brightest peni... umm, flashlight on the block.

The only practical solution is to go with rechargeables, or, if you drive an Escalade, just go buy the M6 for yourself and one for me too.

The SF M6 does have its advantages and disadvantages.

First the advantages,

The size issue. A Mag-lite 'was' good but have failed to embrace newer technologies and advance in times. They follow the business ethic, if it works, don't fix it. Mag-lite is by far the most recognized flashlight to most people. Its the high-end flashlight to the non-flashaholic population. $20-$30 is expensive to most people for a flashlight. It lights up, uses common batteries, and reasonably constructed. C'mon, how many people mount a Mag onto a rifle? The SF M6 is small for its output and shock isolation. I listened while another CPF member explained to me the light can be a lot smaller if all the isolation was removed and all was left was a shell, the reflector and lens, bulb, battery carrier, and tailcap.

Construction quality. The M6 is built like a tank; a whole seperate level over the Mags. The battery carrier itself is a fine piece of equipment.

Brightness. REALLY bright. Near perfect beam with no dark spots but slight oval to hotspot.


Disadvantages.

COST - with a MSRP of $392.......vs. Mag's ~$20 but with mods and everything, prices can climb high. Example, USL. CR 123 battery costs also add up. At 6 per change and 20 minutes with HOLA or 60 with LOLA its not practical for everyday tasks (unless you sprung for a M6R pack.)

Plus, how many M6 owners actually have it mounted onto a rifle; kicking in doors at night and clearing rooms? Not many...


The neutral.
I actually prefer the CR123 primary usage because I can swap them out in the field where I don't have access to an outlet to recharge batteries.


I doubt there will be a real SF M6 competitor real soon. I am sure there will be lights that want to compete, but I 'think' its such a niche market, its not worth all the effort in R&D and engineering to make a knock off or competitor.

Also EDC'ing a SF M6 with a SC2 with 6 cells and a spare lamp IMHO is easier than a 3D/4D Mag with 9X/12X AA's with another set of spares.

I just dont like having to depend on a charger... sigh... I understand what the m6 was designed for...

maybe a rephrase - surefire competitor without all the military specialties? lol...

ok non rechargable lithium AA's, whats available?

ptirmal,

Not going to happen. To get to M6 HOLA levels, you must use high discharge capable batteries. The only options are running 123's in series and parallel, as the M6 does, or using some type of rechargeable. No commonly available primary cells have the ability to discharge like that.

The closest competitor is the ROP, a Mag11/74 or a Tiger11/74 version using either unprotected LiIon cells or NiMH cells.

Asking what you are from Primary cells just isn't going to happen right now.

To get that kind of kick from AA Lithiums, you could do what Surefire has done, run them parallel and Series, (the M6 runs 2 stacks of 3 batteries in parallel, and does it in an ingenious holder that no one has duplicated). BUT...if you are going to do that, might as well buy an M6, it will cost you less than the machining and parts!!


Bill

I think you are pretty much out of luck if you don't want to use rechargeables... Might as well just get the M6 since that means budget isn't a concern at all.

If you want to stick with alkaline cells, just use your 4D light, pop in a 3D bulb and sputter the reflector. Should be about 100 ore more lumens and while I've never done a runtime test, I think it is quite impressive.

Or... if you'd consider going the LED route, you could probably build or buy a light that uses 3 or 4 U-bin emitters that runs on D cells but I just don't think that any of the 'good' hotwires are going to get you any kind of runtime with alkaline cells... you are basically just asking for the impossible.

Honestly though, it sounds like you should just maybe look into getting a Magcharger with upgraded bulb and possibly an upgraded battery pack. That way, you can charge it in either your home or in the car and you don't have to take the cells out. And of course you know that whatever light you get, you can always buy additional packs.

Alkalines, even the best and fresher Duracell or Energizer can not cope with even a regular Maglite 3 D for more than a few minutes, a set of fresh alaklines in the 3 D will produce 39 lumens for 7 minutes before dropping to 75 %.
After one hour it will be outputting 50 % or 20 lumens and decreasing rapidily.

Nimhs are the only batteries that can provide high current and flat delivery safely (Lithium Ion unprotected can do that but are very unsafe)

So what is wrong with using Nimhs? They are rechargeable, inexpensive and safe.
They deliver flat output and the high currents ones can cope with the 3150 mah. that an 1185 produce. Heck it can even move the 100 watts bulbs from the USL (cbp1650 mah).

Juan C.

Yes. Distinct advantages of CR123s. Storage being one.
Now they are $1.00 to $1.50 per pc on line.

You won't get an hour but the following combinations work:

2X3 CR123 parallel @ WA1274 in a Mag2D.

2X5 CR123 parallel @ WA1166 in a Mag3D.

Ask AndrewWynn about his new holder. Li-Ion cells, longer run time on HOLA than stock. Constant voltage or standard resistor. Take your pick. The cells have better capacity than that SF123 plastic holder. Much better color temp even with straight cells /resistor only. The M6R battery pack is another option. Throw away 123 cells a great in a pinch but cost to much and crap out from heat if you leave the light on. I seen it my self and am far from impressed with a $392 light that dies in 11 minites from over heated cells. Or get a 10X. IT never died or let me down. Quote me on it if you want. :scowl:

THAT bright for THAT long is something of a pipe dream without dragging a generator or something like that around behind you.

I don't use 123 powered lights much anymore. I use NimH AAs in most stuff these days.

I can get around 20 minutes from an 1185, maybe a bit more from a 1274, maybe even more from a MC bulb on 6AA.

But those are not the lights I'd grab in an emergency!!! Something with a 1w or 3w and 3C or 3D would be my choice.

My Superbright lights are more for WOW factor!

NikolaTesla said:

Throw away 123 cells a great in a pinch but cost to much and crap out from heat if you leave the light on. I seen it my self and am far from impressed with a $392 light that dies in 11 minites from over heated cells. :scowl:

Click to expand...

What does this mean? You do not get an hour runtime?

Thanks,
rob

i think what he means is that you can't get a continuas hour of runtime, the cells overheat, but in segments, like say, 12 5 minut segments, you could get your hour of runtime.

FLEEGS, MDOCOD....

You guys are mixing up the LOLA and the HOLA. The LOLA is approx 250 lumens for 60 min, the HOLA is approx 500 lumens for 20 min. BUT, the HOLA will overheat the batteries and cause the thermal protection to kick in around 11-12 min, so you do not get a CONTINIOUS 20 min of runtime.

StainlessSteel said:

FLEEGS, MDOCOD....

You guys are mixing up the LOLA and the HOLA. The LOLA is approx 250 lumens for 60 min, the HOLA is approx 500 lumens for 20 min. BUT, the HOLA will overheat the batteries and cause the thermal protection to kick in around 11-12 min, so you do not get a CONTINIOUS 20 min of runtime.

Click to expand...

Thanks. That is what I was looking for.

fleegs

hey- if you are really concerned about having to "charge in the field" just buy 2 sets of nimh batteries and charge them all at once. EVEN BETTER! you could just keep buying new Nimh batteries and use em once and then throw em on the ground when your done! and slam in some new ones! hehehe IMO using non rechargeable batteries is ... wastefull and expensive to boot! you keep tossing yours in the trash. ill recharge mine 500 times before my nimh's see a trash can. OH and another good thing about having rechargeables, you will never feel like you have to "conserve ammo". when i got my surefire c3 i kept saying to myself. "turn the light off blake your wasting the 123's!" and that just sucks if it is nighttime i want to be able to use my light carefree and with rechargeables you can do that. as a side note i cant wait for my pilas! c3 will never be turned off! lol

And actually the thermal protection issue is not consistent from one batch of cells to another. Sometimes it doesn't happen at all, other times it will happen in less than 10 minutes.

I've never seen it happen, though I tended to run the LOLA more than the HOLA until I got my M6R pack.

But js has seen it, and I know that it does happen. The truth is, the M6 was never intended as a flashaholic light, it was intended as a special operations light, and leaving the HOLA on for prolonged periods was not its design.

Rechargeable cells are not a good option for SpecOps because you might need to drop the cells and go, replacing them on the run. Primary cells serve that purpose well.

Bill

NikolaTesla said:

Ask AndrewWynn about his new holder. Li-Ion cells, longer run time on HOLA than stock. Constant voltage or standard resistor. Take your pick. The cells have better capacity than that SF123 plastic holder. Much better color temp even with straight cells /resistor only. The M6R battery pack is another option. Throw away 123 cells a great in a pinch but cost to much and crap out from heat if you leave the light on. I seen it my self and am far from impressed with a $392 light that dies in 11 minites from over heated cells. Or get a 10X. IT never died or let me down. Quote me on it if you want. :scowl:

Click to expand...

Tom,

Now WHADDA YA DOIN ?!?!?!

Letting the feline out of the containment vessel, cat out of the bag, disclosing everything...

Just when I thought it was fun to keep direct drive rechargeable LiIon a best kept secret for the M6 and let everybody keep thinking about the bizillions per hour in battery costs an M6 owner has to endure.

The M6 isnt a bunch of hype. Its a benchmark. That can be RADICALLY improved with a different power solution for "recreational" users. Ask any M6-R owner about how they used their light before and after. Yeah, its way expensive, but for its size it still produces an incomparably beautiful and POWERFUL beam for a production light.

AWR's MM66 light. It takes AWR's creativity to put together a rocket like the MM66 with a stippled reflector, now THATS a worthy M6 beater right there! The recent comparo gives favor to the challenger by a significant margin, no argument at all. Rather nice job, Andrew. WHERES MY NANO?!? Just kidding....

Here's a reminder of what makes the M6-R so special

The *M6-R* Fully regulated rechargeable M6 makes an Auspucious Debut
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-65989.html

Brightnorm