Twice the Run Time and Brighter… B90 Upgrade

[winny]

Got my new 9AN yesterday and noticed a couple of things:

1. It's heavy.
2. The battery pack rattles inside.
3. The low output beam sucks.

So, this made me think about the battery packs. As the battery pack is 130 mm long, two 18650 would fit, just.

SilverFox,

you mentioned that a fully depleted B90 pack would output over 3.5 V. How come? Don't you discharge both NiCd and NiMH to 1.0 V?
I was thinking about reducing weight and improving the battery capacity to 4.8 Ah using standard LG's.

If Li-Ion is a no-go, I still have questions.

1. What color will your new packs have? Anything but blue would be nice so you can distinguish original packs from the replacement packs easily.
2. What diameter are you aiming at? I understand that your replacement pack must it the 8A*, it wouldn't like it to rattle inside 9ANs either. Is there a good compromise?

[SilverFox]

Hello Winny,

You will have to refresh my memory on the 3.5 volt discussion... However, a B90 pack has 3 1.2 volt cells (3.6 volts nominal). If you run the lamp with 2 3.7 volt cells (7.4 volts nominal), you may overdrive things a little.

Shrink wrap (so far) has been yellow.

This replacement pack will minimize the rattle. As a matter of fact, we are trying to reduce the diameter a little to make sure it slides in and you don't have to slightly "press" it in and out. Topper is using a prototype pack in his 9AN and it was a "press" fit at first. Now he has worn the shrink wrap down to where it "slides" in and out.

Tom

[winny]

Here you go:

Hello Sgt,

It sounds like you have a bad cell in your pack. Are you able to measure the voltage of your pack? Fully charged it should be around 4.3 volts and fully discharged it should be around 3.5 volts or more.

Tom

Oh, and I did mean to run the Li-Ions in parallel, otherwise I wouldn't get 4.6 Ah.

[SilverFox]

Hello Winny,

I believe I was referring to resting open circuit voltage after draining the pack down to 1.0 volts per cell under load.

Tom

[EKinOR]

Any update on projected availability and price? I've extremely interested in this as I use a 9AN every day at work and my stock of B90's is getting worn out. I also use an L7, too.

If you need another tester, I'd be happy to do it.

[SilverFox]

Hello EK,

Welcome to CPF.

We are deciding which cells to use. I can not set a price until we know this.

I am hoping that we will be ready to go in the next few weeks. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that by Halloween the group buy will be in place... as long as we don't experience any set backs.

Tom

[SilverFox]

Well, I almost had a set back last night...

I have several prototype packs and several B90 packs and have been switching between them. I can tell you right now that it is easy to get used to the extended run time of the prototype packs.

Last night I was using my light when it suddenly died. I thought the lamp had died. I had only been using it for... well come to think of it I changed the battery last night and used it quite a lot last night as well. It still didn't seem right.

I tried the light again and it lit up for a couple of seconds, then dimmed right down. Ah ha, dead battery. However I was at a loss why the pack would die off so quickly.

I opened up the light and realized that I had put a stock B90 pack in... I replaced the battery and was back in business.

I recharged my prototype packs and am looking forward to extended run time again tonight.

The funny thing is that I had been using my light in a series of short bursts and did not notice any dimming at all. It died when I turned it on for what was supposed to be an extended period of time. I have gotten used to the extended run time of the prototype packs and felt that the run time I got from this pack was a lot less. Well, it was. About half of what I have been used to.

It is hard to go back to a normal B90 pack after "playing" with the prototype packs. Not only is the beam brighter and whiter, but the extended run time is addictive.

OK, I will chalk this up to operator error... It is not really a set back at all.

Tom

[iced_theater]

I'll be watching this thread for updates, would be a good battery for my 8nx and would be for an L7 when I buy one.

[Topper]

Hi folks, I have not posted on this in awhile well because I have nothing much to say that would be new. I am still getting 60-63 minutes when I leave it on the charger for at least 12 hours after it starts to blink. I am happy with it and after blowing the first lamp I am sure I have far surpassed the "25" hour lamp life on the lamp in my 9AN (if I am keeping up with it we are going on 37 hours use but who's counting? If I was really counting I would know its closer to 38 hours 26 minutes but that sounds to anal). (I hope I did not just Jinx it. I know... its bad luck to be superstitious. am I typing out loud again?) anyway all is good for the proto unit in my care.
Topper

[SilverFox]

Hello Topper,

Thanks for the update.

I believe the 9AN has an expected runtime of around 40 minutes on the B90 pack, so 63 minutes is a great improvement. If the larger capacity cells actually work out, I am sure we will be up to 80 minutes for a double runtime pack.

I am just getting the finishing touches done on the 4300 cells and we should be able to get twice the run time from them. Our battery pack builder hurt his back and has not been able to get the 4300 packs to me. I talked with him today and it was his first day back to work. He is going to build the packs tomorrow and I should have them by the end of the week. I will have a week of testing them in the field and will compare my notes from the single cell testing and make the decision as to which cells we will use for these packs.

Once the cells have been picked I can set a price and get the ball rolling for orders. I will start a thread in the Group Buy section when I am ready to go.

I am thinking that the first run will be for about 30 packs. If that sells out, I may have to do another run.

I can see that price will be involved in the final price selection. The GP cells are a premium cell and command a premium price. They will be good for lots of cycles and should hold on to their performance edge for quite some time.

On the other hand, there are some cells that are cheaper...

How do we define "Value?"

I am looking for a bullet proof pack that will out perform the B90 and not give us any problems. My definition of value involves performance first, then price.

Comments...?

Tom

[cnjl3]

Like the old saying goes "you get what you pay for".
So my vote is for performance first!

[js]

Hey Tom! How are you? Are you back from the wild lands yet? Or are you uplinked via turtle shell and tincan satellite link?

FWIW, I like your definition of value.

[SilverFox]

Hello Jim,

It's nice to be back...

Tom

[EKinOR]

I am looking for a bullet proof pack that will out perform the B90 and not give us any problems. My definition of value involves performance first, then price.

Comments...?

Tom

For me, the extra run time would be nice, but not a necessity. Price is important. I use my 9AN 4-5 days a week at work and I'll need multiple batteries, regardless of capacity (unless you can get 4 hours of runtime in a battery pack).

Do you have a rough estimate of price? Full retail on a B90 pack is $20. Is it going to be in the same price range? If they are, I'd be in for at least two and probably more.

[SilverFox]

Hello EKinOR,

Welcome to CPF.

The price will be more than the B90 packs.

The list price on just the GP cells is about $30. This is just for the cells and does not include building them into a pack, testing, forming, and marketing. I am working on a discount from list, but even with a 50% discount I still wouldn't be able to compete with B90 pack price.

Using the 9AN on the low power lamp you will probably be able to come quite close to 4 hours on one pack.

Tom

[SilverFox]

Update:

I have good news, and more news...

We have solved the fit issue. The change in ribbon and shrink wrap thickness has resulted in a battery pack that fits the lights. A "press fit" to insert the pack is no longer required, and gravity will allow the pack to drop out without having to tap it out. The pack is still larger than the stock B90 pack, so the rattle issue should be minimized.

We have also solved the nipple length issue. Our battery supplier has come up with a nipple that is shorter and works quite well. The old nipple was a little long and would hang up on the charger. The new nipple is short enough to avoid this, but still offers normal operation of the light.

The new nipple resembles the + terminal of a 9 volt battery... I think someone suggested this earlier. See, we are listening...

And now for the other news...

The 4300 cells are not working out well. There are reports of them being quite fragile and suffering from high self discharge rates. We had one cell die from spot welding.

I know I was shooting for twice the run time, but I think that we will have to settle for twice the capacity. We are going to go with the GP 3700 cells. They offer better voltage retention than the B90 cells, so we will end up with a brighter light and extended run time. It just won't quite be twice the run time. Oh well, 80+ minutes with an 8NX is a substantial improvement, and the beam is a lot less yellow.

I should tell you that we have had two lamps blow with this improved battery pack. In both cases, the lamps were quite old and probably ready for replacement. I don't think instaflashing will be a problem, but an older lamp may not welcome the improved voltage that this replacement pack offers.

Charging these packs on the old SureFire chargers will probably cause the cells to vent. If you have an old charger and want to try out this new pack, you will do so at your own risk. The new charger goes from red, to green, to blinking green.

I have a bunch of cycles on the new charger and have had no venting issues. I will be forming the packs before they are shipped, and plan to run a few charge/discharge cycles on them to make sure we have a good pack. Keep in mind that I will be going against my general advice of never charging NiMh batteries in a NiCd charger. In this case I think it will work out because the batteries are twice the capacity and the new SureFire charger seems to time out the rapid charge.

I have to place the order for the cells and other parts, and firm up the price with the battery builder before opening up the actual order thread. However, it looks like we will be able to come pretty close to the $38/pack price. This price will NOT include shipping. Those who want 3 or more packs can expect the price to be around $34.50/pack.

Once I have firm pricing, I will open the order thread in the group buy section with a link supplied here.

I am quite excited that this is finally coming together.

Tom

[Kevski]

Tom:

Also, have you had a chance to test these out in an L7? Provided they work in that application I'm in for three.

[SilverFox]

Hello Kevski,

Welcome to CPF.

I have not tried them in an L7, but so far the 8NX has the tightest fit and they fit fine in it. This pack will be a direct replacement for the B90 packs.

Tom

[SilverFox]

A surprising update:

I went to order the cells today and was told that there is a new 3700 on the block. It seems there are some classes of RC race car racing that limit the batteries to 3700 mAh. GP has just introduced their "special" 3700 cell for this class of racing. It is rumored that these cells may have been labeled for their minimum capacity.

Price was the same, so I ordered them. The race results on these cells has been quite good. I am anxious to check them out. List price on the cells is $7.49 each.

I ordered enough cells to do 30+ packs. When we have all the pieces together and ready to assemble, I will open up the order thread.

I am hoping these new 3700 cells may come closer to giving us twice the run time of the B90 pack. This would allow me to meet the final goal that I set out to achieve.

Keep in mind that if your definition of value only includes price, these packs are not for you. The SureFire B90 packs are around $20, and you can find other packs on eBay that go 2 packs for around $20 + shipping. I picked up a pair of these from "We Know Batteries," and was totally unimpressed. In my 8NX, I was getting about 10 minutes less run time than the SureFire B90 pack. After 22 cycles a cell died in each pack. I tried contacting the seller and they were unresponsive. However, they were cheap... I believe BatterySpace sell some packs for around $16. If you are looking for a cheap pack, I would suggest checking these other sources.

On the other hand, these packs that I will be offering will be of a very high quality. You can expect a long lifetime from them, in addition to the additional run time and brighter beam. These are fresh cells and have been standing up to some real abuse in the RC world.

This is getting very exciting...

In a few days I will be opening the order thread in the Group Buy section. I prefer that all discussion of the packs be conducted here and the order thread be just for orders. I will be ignoring questions in the order thread (other than order questions), but will be happy to discuss them here.

I guess it is time to talk about payment options. I think I have most of the bases covered, but will welcome any discussion of how you intend to pay.

Tom

[sandworm]

Excellent work on all the R&D. I can attest to the crappiness of those ebay b90 packs. I bought 2 sticks a year or so ago and I've got 1 that charges up to 1100mah and another that goes up to 1400mah. I'll probably wind up disassembling a 7.2V batt pack that uses those GP cells to rebuild these sticks and reuse the hardware, but if I hadn't bought those crap cells I'd definitely jump on this. The overall cost would have been cheaper and I'd be assured to get quality. Either way, kudos on a great job.

A surprising update:

I went to order the cells today and was told that there is a new 3700 on the block. It seems there are some classes of RC race car racing that limit the batteries to 3700 mAh. GP has just introduced their "special" 3700 cell for this class of racing. It is rumored that these cells may have been labeled for their minimum capacity.

Price was the same, so I ordered them. The race results on these cells has been quite good. I am anxious to check them out. List price on the cells is $7.49 each.

I ordered enough cells to do 30+ packs. When we have all the pieces together and ready to assemble, I will open up the order thread.

I am hoping these new 3700 cells may come closer to giving us twice the run time of the B90 pack. This would allow me to meet the final goal that I set out to achieve.

Keep in mind that if your definition of value only includes price, these packs are not for you. The SureFire B90 packs are around $20, and you can find other packs on eBay that go 2 packs for around $20 + shipping. I picked up a pair of these from "We Know Batteries," and was totally unimpressed. In my 8NX, I was getting about 10 minutes less run time than the SureFire B90 pack. After 22 cycles a cell died in each pack. I tried contacting the seller and they were unresponsive. However, they were cheap... I believe BatterySpace sell some packs for around $16. If you are looking for a cheap pack, I would suggest checking these other sources.

On the other hand, these packs that I will be offering will be of a very high quality. You can expect a long lifetime from them, in addition to the additional run time and brighter beam. These are fresh cells and have been standing up to some real abuse in the RC world.

This is getting very exciting...

In a few days I will be opening the order thread in the Group Buy section. I prefer that all discussion of the packs be conducted here and the order thread be just for orders. I will be ignoring questions in the order thread (other than order questions), but will be happy to discuss them here.

I guess it is time to talk about payment options. I think I have most of the bases covered, but will welcome any discussion of how you intend to pay.

Tom

[js]

Tom,

SWEET! I love it. That will elimate the only small concern we had with using GP3700's, which was that the cells could potentially be a bit on the old side. And, on top of that, these sound as if they will be incrementally better than the regular GP3700's. Lovely! Delightful!

This is really great. And it's great to see it finally come near to fruition. How long ago was it now that we had that phone conversation where I offered to rebuild a B90 pack or two with Sanyos and/or GP3700's? Over a year ago, wasn't it? Or pretty close, anyway.

It's funny. I don't even own a SF rechargeable, but I just knew we had to do this. And I'm so glad it's turning out this well this soon. And all without ANY hand labor from me! (except for the proto-types, of course) Now that's what I call real fun! Be part of the design and problem solving team, but then let some other schmuck do all the manual labor. Excellent plan.

Anyway, next time we talk, you'll have to tell me all about the RC 3700 cells. I had no idea they existed--(not that I keep close tabs on these sorts of things, though).

[bobbo]

SilverFox,

In Post No.169 you stated you ordered enough batteries to build 30+ battery packs.My question is,are you going to build more packs if the packs sell out in a short time period? I ask this because I want to order at least four of your B90 batteries (I have six SF lights that use the B90 battery) and I'm sure the batteries will sell out fast,so I don't want to be a "Hog".

Thanks

[SilverFox]

Hello Bobbo,

The reason for the low amount of packs is that there is not a lot of demand for the B90 pack. I have two lights that use this pack, and I just did not want to end up with a bunch of packs for it. Judging from the response I have received, I think this limited run will work out just about right. There should be no problem with your order.

This effort came about because I wanted better performance from my lights. I love my 8NX, but when comparing the beam color to my A2, I see that it is a lot lower in color temperature. The prototype packs have indicated that there is a vast improvement, and I am quite pleased. The beam is whiter and, of course, the run time has been vastly improved.

Tom

[NotRegulated]

Tom,
Sounds like they are almost ready! I am post #33 in this thread and would still like to commit to two of these battery packs for my 8NX.

[SilverFox]

Hello NotRegulated,

In the next few days we should have all the parts together to get going on this. Once I am certain that we have everything together, I will have the battery pack assembler make some packs. He will then send them to me for forming and a few cycles. Once I am satisfied that everything is good to go, I will open up a thread in the group buy section and you can sign up for the packs you are interested in.

I have checked with our battery supplier and he believes that these special cells will be available at least through the end of the year. If there is a increased interest in these packs beyond this initial offering, we should have cells to build more with.

Stay tuned, we are getting real close to having the final product...

Tom

[PGP]

Glad to see you where able to work things out, and it looks like these will be a very nice upgrade for my 9an. As I stated in post #3, 13, 18 and who knows how many more, I am still interested in 1, but will probably end up getting 2 if they are not to horribly expensive.

Thanks for all the hard work & R&D.

Patrick

[dl744tga]

When you are ready to sell, count this LEO in for at least 1 and maybe two. My 8NX is older, and I have gone thru several B90's that have had poor run times. With the new batteries, can anyone suggest a better bulb for the 8NX? Thanks guys for your hard work, experiments and knowledge. You build it and they WILL come!!

[SilverFox]

Hello Dl744tga,

You may find that with the new battery pack you will find the stock lamp "acceptable."

Tom

[SilverFox]

Update:

I was hoping to be ready to open up the order thread today, however we have had a couple of minor set backs. Some of the parts used to build the packs were not the right ones. The new (correct) parts have been ordered and should arrive shortly.

If I was pressed for a new date, I would say perhaps by this weekend...

Tom

[Topper]

Hi Tom, have you decided upon payment options and price? I prefer CC funded paypal as it seems safe (safe from wife) and easy (lazy man can do that without moving out of chair)
I owe you for the proto pack and depending on a few things I may want a second pack.
Topper