Questions for LEOs

There have been various discussions here about use of flashlights for self-defense, and various opinions and stories offered. A couple of issues come to mind.

First, given the general feeling here that flashlights themselves are not adequate for self-defense, is there any value at all in their use in potentially unsafe public areas under poor lighting, for example:

-Upon becoming aware of a potential threat, lighting up your surroundings so you're not in the dark but instead are conspicuous and therefore a less-attractive target. This assumes that other people can see you, e.g. you're not in a dark alley helping the criminal to see you better. This also assumes that your priority is still to move quickly away from any suspicious individuals and to keep moving away from them, not relying on the light for more than a brief period to create hesitation on the part of a potential attacker.
-Shining the light in the direction of a suspicious person, but perhaps without any effort to "temporarily blind" them. This has been suggested to help you see who they are and presumably whether they look dangerous, though I wonder what value this really would have.
-Upon being approached in a seemingly threatening manner, rather than running first, shining the light in the suspect's eyes to briefly impair their vision, then running. This obviously runs the risk of getting a person angry at you who had no designs on you in the first place. This also does not address the criminal who approaches you in a relatively friendly manner to size you up, then attacks with no warning from close range.

Second, several people here have told stories of shining powerful flashlights in the eyes of LEOs to intimidate them and getting away with it. I'm rather skeptical. What do you think?

Thanks,
Bill D.

Here's some interesting reading regarding the use of illumination amongst LEOs. Enjoy!

http://www.borelliconsulting.com/articles/hitpf.htm

http://www.borelliconsulting.com/articles/lightvalue.htm

I think in many situations, excess = power. for example If someone sees a single cop, he might not be that afraid, if he sees an army regiment, he isnt goin to mess around with them. I know that there are leo's on this forum who carry M6's and such, i think a Mag100 or usl would be a great light. The brigher the better. At night a light that bright is impossible to look into, not only would the thugs be stunned periodically but they would have no idea what the Leo was doing. Shock and awe effect. The Flashbang works because of the way it is used, ie ::BANG:: "POLICE WE HAVE A SERCH WARRANT, FREEZE!" I have no doubt that the power of a good flashlight is unmeasureable when used correctly, in the right hands. A M1 abrams is a devistating thing on a battlefeild, however if you put a couple of guys in one that have never seen a tank before and its a 70 ton paperweight. from personal experience I know that a strong enough light will make medling teens scatter like mice =)

.02

I think prevention is the best medicine. Most non-law enforcement people who work at night who use flashlights for safety usually don't use them for the 6D bash their head in approach. At least I don't think that's why most folks who carry flashlights at night carry them. Most people just don't think of them as weapons. Not even larger capacity Maglites. But of course anything can be a weapon. Especially a long aluminum wand.

If I need to use deadly force, it likely won't be with my flashlight, though I think a good jab from my 2C or 2D Mag could ruin somebody's day, I wouldn't like to depend on it for frontline defense. It's all about seeing a threat before it materializes. I use my flashlight(s) most nights to see into dark areas where shady folks could be hiding to do me harm. If I think something is not right, I'll probably still do my job like always, unless something is really fishy, but at least now I know they're there.

There's nothing like walking into a totally dark apartment complex and not being able to see a thing. How do you know when you close the door there isn't somebody there behind it waiting to knock you over the head with a drain pipe and take your money? Or a mean dog that someone let out who's hiding in the corner can always be fun too..

Don't get me started on farmhouses. Luckily, most large dogs are friendly.

99.99% of the time it's just people who don't know any better than to turn on lights so that you can see where their apartment is, or so you can see their house address, but I always er on the side of caution.

Your questions are excellent.

In my handgun carry classes (one on one), I teach situational awareness, and stress avoiding areas/situations where you are LIKELY to be accosted.

If you do find yourself in a less than desireable situation, i.e., a mall parking lot at night, etc., lighting up the area to, and around your car at least lets the bad guys know that you are AWARE of what is going on, and they may look for a less vigilant target.

Another factor, cops, and security guards frequently use flashlights, so there tends to be an association there.

The scum generally look for weak, targets that look like FOOD. You want to try hard to look like something else.

Lighting up cops, on the other hand, is a very bad idea.

Be safe.

For A LEO...a decent flashlight..can be a lifesaver....at any time of the day...

I've had people run into disused warehouses during the day...that are pitch black inside...

For members of the public...they can also be a lifesaver...

Something like Surefire 6P can be carried in a coat pocket daily. It has many uses from simply lighting up an alleyway prior to walking down...to shining in an attackers eyes, to being used as a 'kubotan'..

Also, because you need to have the 'flashlight mentality', as I call it; It's also a weapon that can't really be used against you.
ie: if you drop it..it's unilikely that an attacker will pick it up and start shining it in your eyes or using it in your pressure points..

A lot of useful info here for people...a few things I would add.

A good light can never replace training for situations that require a physical response, but can help prevent them from happening. Because I work predominantly third shift I am a big proponant of using light as a means of defense, and offense. There have been several instances when I have given people a couple of quick bursts of light from my L4 or M3 to just let them know that they will not have an advantage...trust me it works. A good way to understand this is to have a friend or family member use your brightest light and have them blip you a couple of times, or even use a steady burn to the eyes. You will understand how well it can be effective.

For the general public, as was mentioned, a good light and knowledge of when to use it could help prevent you from being that prey. Here is something that has not been mentioned. Carrying yourself in a confident, aware manner in conjunction with a good hand torch will be a big factor in keeping you from being a victim. Walking with your head down, being consumed with with something else really leaves you with your guard down. Hope this helps from a LEO

RemingtonBPD said:

Carrying yourself in a confident, aware manner in conjunction with a good hand torch will be a big factor in keeping you from being a victim. Walking with your head down, being consumed with with something else really leaves you with your guard down. Hope this helps from a LEO

Click to expand...

Great point Remington...:rock:

If I may post the following, which I first wrote on FF a month ago..
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

As a follow on from some of my previous postings on security and personal safety, please allow me to share some more..;

We are most safe, in our homes and our vehicles...

However, once out of those 'shells' we become vulnerable...to different shades and degrees..

To protect oneself you have to assume the mental identity of an attacker/mugger...and thing...."If I were a bad guy...would I mug me?"....If the answer is 'YES'...then you have to do something about it...

For example;

EASY TO MUG:
When you have stopped walking and stationary.
Looking around, lost or tourist like,
Holding your wallet or purse...(ie: in a queue for an ATM)
Looking at a map (tourist like again)..also distracted and unaware...
Deep in conversation..(especially on cell phone/mobile phone)

HARD TO MUG:
Jogging/exercising
Fast and Powerful walking..(like you are late)
Aggressive demeanor, or alert and watchful.
Erect and self assured... (my favourite of the defence mechanisms).

Most street crime is opportunistic and rarely is it a planned and co-ordinated affair. The mugger looks for a 'victim' and tries to find the victim unaware or vulnerable. The geography also has a lot to do with it. Rarely are people mugged in busy and crowded places..regardless of what HollyWood would have you believe. So avoid dark alleyways, deserted places....and if you have to park in an underground or open-air car park/lot, try to park nearest the door or entrance....So that if you are late returning to your car...yours is not left on it's own right at the back.

Such occasions are brilliant times to have your trusty flashlight with you...and things like a SureFire E2D defender are ideal. Not only for their brightness and ability to cause physical pain to an attacker, but for the self confidence that carrying such an item can sometimes bring. Thus making you look self assured and confident....(like in my HARD TO MUG suggestions earlier)...

Having one's car keys already in you hand can have two useful purposes. Firstly they make an ideal weapon if used correctly, and secondly it means that you don't have to fumble about to find them when you have arrived at your vehicle, thus making you vulnerable and unaware....

By the same token, if you see some character(s) near your vehicle, in a deserted car park, discretion is the better part of honour and all that....ie: you DONT HAVE to return to your vehicle. Instead, return to a populated area and re-assess your intentions. Your life and health are worth more than ANY automobile..REMEMBER THAT.

I will go into more stuff later if members find it interesting/useful..

Stay Safe..

Gary..

Safety1st by all means go into more..Thanks

besafe2 said:

Safety1st by all means go into more..Thanks

Click to expand...

I'm glad you found it of use and interest....

Rather than just preach at people....

If people have any specific questions or scenarios...i'm happy to advise and give my 'angle' on it...

As i'm sure other LEOs on here are...

Besides, this is your business...besafe2....by all means chip in and give your side..

There may be things that i've wrote that you've disagreed with....i'm happy to debate...for the greater good....

I can only go off 10 years as a cop and 6 years mil.intel previously...and i'm still learning...so i'm by now way an expert...

Gary

As far as the last question, I have been hearing occasional reports about our people being spotlighted for criminal harassment purposes. We also have to deal with lasers, slingshots (wrist rockets) and paintball guns. I'm not talking about kids, but organized criminal enterprises, who work against us. Unfortunately, they do get away with it. It makes me quite angry.

Good post Gary, words to live by.....literally. Also good one by Remington.

Cliff

Safety1st said:

Most street crime is opportunistic and rarely is it a planned and co-ordinated affair.

Click to expand...

Where I come from there are small groups of (mostly) young people who are highly organized and have recognizable MO's for their muggings (to the point you can learn to identify these groups out on the street - if you know what to look for and remain alert).

Good points.

From an Officer Safety point of view it is extremely important to be on the "front foot" rather than be caught on the "back foot" in any situation. I carry a 6P with P61. This puts me at an advantage, especially doing traffiic stops at night with minimal street lighting. This lights up the entire inside of the vehicle and totally blows any of the occupants night vision. Putting me at an advantage.

Further to this having a highout put flashlight has made numerous offenders think twice before doing something. I guess they are not expecting the light to come from nowhere which it appears to as you can easily conceal a flashlight of this size in your hand and blind an unsuspecting offender before they have the chance to do otherwise.

I have a lot more force options available to me other than a "simple flashlight" however if it works........:buddies:

Flashing someone on the face is a hell of a lot better option than spraying someone with OC spray if it will have the same effect ie ensure that they comply.

It should also be noted that many departments list the use of both a baton and/or OC spray under the lethal force guidelines and requires documentation (report) anytime they are used.

As far as I know, there aren't any documented cases of injury or death directly connected to the use of a flashlight (as a light, not as an impact weapon.) Of course, the moment I post this, some idiot (hey they come in all occupations!) will blind someone and cause them to walk into the path of an oncoming traffic or something :-(.

Justice Inc. said:

Flashing someone on the face is a hell of a lot better option than spraying someone with OC spray if it will have the same effect ie ensure that they comply.

Click to expand...

Brighteyez said:

It should also be noted that many departments list the use of both a baton and/or OC spray under the lethal force guidelines and requires documentation (report) anytime they are used.

Click to expand...

That is correct..Dept's will list any type of weapon as "force". And as far as I know some Dept's even forbid the use of a flashlight as an impact tool, unless there is no other choice and your safety is at risk. Would I use it if I had to, you bet your ar$e! But like I have stated, it would not be the first tool I used.

Not just force, but specifically under the classification of "Lethal Force" since a baton can be used to cause mortal injury and OC can result in fatal results.

It can boil down purely to a matter of economics too.

OC/Baton
Costs less
Personnel trained to use under state and DOJ guidelines.
Established course of instruction.
Classified for use as "non-lethal" weapon.

Flashlight
Costs more if its a rechargeable
Personnel are not trained to use it as an impact weapon.
May result in unintended fatalities when used as an impact weapon.
Civil liabilities (including wrongful death) may be incurred when a flashlight is used as an impact weapon by personnel who are not trained to use it as such.
No known sanctioned course of instruction to use a flashlight as an impact weapon.
Not classified for use as a weapon or restraint device of any kind.
Use of a flashlight as an impact weapon may cause damage to the aluminum or its internals, and may cause the device to require repairs


As someone who was around when the first aluminum lights, Kel-Lite, were introduced, the whole thing about a flashlight serving as a baton or impact weapon to substitute for a billy tended to come more from the marketing folks for the manufacturers than from law enforcement per se. I think any of the experienced law enforcement personnel of the day (mostly WWII veterans) were clearly aware of the damage that could occur should a flashlight be used in that manner. Besides, most of them had worked with 2D flashlights for most of their lives.

RemingtonBPD said:

That is correct..Dept's will list any type of weapon as "force". And as far as I know some Dept's even forbid the use of a flashlight as an impact tool, unless there is no other choice and your safety is at risk. Would I use it if I had to, you bet your ar$e! But like I have stated, it would not be the first tool I used.

Click to expand...