How many lumens does it take to REALLY mess up an attacker?

Ligament

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Of course I would not rely on a flashlight for defense, but just how many lumens does it take to really, painfully knock out somebody's night vision? I'm thinking of a 500lumen weapon light..got a 120lumen surefire that is not bright enough.
 

Lee1959

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If its relatively dark, any semi-bright light, even the lowly much maligned Minimag, if shined directly into the eyes of an attacker unexpectedly will effectively destroy their night vision long enough for you to cut and run, or use your primary line of self defense I think. One thing ot remember however, is to close your eyes prior to flashing, or it could also wreck your night vision also and you loose whatever tactical edge it gave. Of course the brighter the light the larger purple ballons they will see for a longer time period. If your 120 lumen surefire is not enough to do the job, something is wrong I say personally. Time to change batteries as that should be enough to disable any intruders night vision.

All you should ever rely upon a light for is an edge, to make an escape or bring another more effective method of self defense into play.
 
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beezaur

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If you are looking for wincing-pain-can't-even-look type reactions, you need more than the 225 lumens that my SureFire M3-CB puts out. It is starting to get there though. Maybe an M3T as a minimum (more intense spot).

Scott
 

Ice

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You all are overlooking the most decisive thing:
My understanding is that lumen is a measure of the overall light output. It should be clear that for your purpose only the light shining in one's eyes is what counts, so you will need -above all- a light with a good, tight focus. I have a SureFire E1L (KL1 head, new generation) which outputs only about 30 lumens but has a very narrow focus. I'm sure that at night it will make someone blind for quite some seconds! I also have an U2, which outputs about 4 times the lumens the E1L does, but since it has a wider focus I guess it would be "only" about as good as the E1L at blinding someone.
 
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NeonLights

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It's all relative. Different people will react differently, and different amounts of ambient light will require different levels of lumens. A stock Minimag might be enough in total darkness. You also have to make sure to hit the guy on the first blast of light. If you're using a tight beam (like a SF M4 or M6) and the person you're trying to disorient is very far away, you might not hit him in the eyes right off, and he may have time to look away and/or shield his eyes. Never depend on any light as a reliable means of self-defense. Sometimes it might work like you intend, sometimes you might end up on the ground bleeding. Think of a flashlight as a tool, not a weapon.

The real answer to the question "How many lumens does it take to REALLY mess up an attacker?" would be something along the lines of "how many lumens does the muzzle blast of a .45 handgun put out at night?"

-Keith
 
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Ice

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@ NeonLights:
Well, of course with a narrow beam it is more difficult to hit the eyes at first try (and also at close distances, since there the beam is still very small), that's true... :)
Therefore I have been "target practicing" a little with my E1L, something I'm sure every flashaholic would enjoy doing as well! :naughty:
 

beezaur

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Sorry if this is a little off topic:

When HIDs are described as "instant strike," how instant is "instant?" Can you get one up to power fast enough to use in a tactical setting?

Think of 3500 lumens in 1/2 second or less. That would mess someone up good at close range (however many cp or lux that works out to).

Scott
 

Ice

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One more time: It's not enough to talk only about how much lumens the light emits in general! That's just half of the story!
(Well, at least as long as you don't really press the light directly on someones eyes! :))

@beezaur:
That depends. But you should know, that one needs only some hundredth of a second to close the eyelids, so half a second is a very long time compared to that...

Edit:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a LED light generally better for blinding someone, since bulbs allways have to heat up the filament first (which takes a little time naturally)?!
 
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UVvis

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The blue tinted color of LED's is harsher.

The effects vary greatly person to person. For example, don't ever try to predict how someone drunk will respond. From playing with lights and the pitiful level of low light hand to hand and shooting I've had, I just accept that I have lost my night vision, so I'm going to squint and try my best to follow the light and keep my self oriented in the best direction I can. On the other hand, I strobed a coworker with my Gladius and he kinda fell over and whined.

It is going to depend on the ambient light conditions. Play around, get a big mirror and a dark room, or a buddy that doesn't think you are completely insane and play around. In bright sunlight, you are going to need a huge powerful light. On an overcast new moon night in the middle of a forest, you don't need much.
 

greenLED

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Although the amount of light plays a role, keep in mind that certain strobe frequencies can be effective at disorienting people (take the Gladius for example). At least one person I know of claims to get dizzy just by watching a regular PMW-powered LED waved before them :p

Ice, filament warm up occurs so fast (fractions of a second), that for all practical purposes it's instantaneous.

The only "instant" strike HID I've seen (SF mini-Beast) powers up "instantaneously".
 

beezaur

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Ice said:
@beezaur:
That depends. But you should know, that one needs only some hundredth of a second to close the eyelids, so half a second is a very long time compared to that...

Closing eyelids doesn't matter. If you are forcing someone to close their eyes, turn their head, shield their eyes, etc., you have totally overwhelmed their visual abilities. At that stage you have "really messed up an attacker" and have gained a tremendous advantage.

Scott
 

Ice

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Closing eyelids doesn't matter. If you are forcing someone to close their eyes, turn their head, shield their eyes, etc., you have totally overwhelmed their visual abilities. At that stage you have "really messed up an attacker" and have gained a tremendous advantage.
Very true if you want to attack him. If you however should decide to better run away it can come very handy if he doesn't see you for a few more seconds even though the light is not shining at him anymore...
 

tron3

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A simple spot light of 1,3, or 5 Million CP should do the trick.

Now the Striker-VG has that annoying strobe and is roughly 200 lumens. But even on extremely weakened batteries, that strobe was annoying.

It's not just lumens, it' strobe too.
 

CLHC

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:huh: Here we go with another thread on BRIGHT lights to disorient dark adapted eyes—

I've read on one of SureFire's catalog, that an "effective" Lumen output to temporarily disorient a person's dark/night adapted eyes starts around 65 Lumens then goes up from there. The 120 Lumens you have should be effective enough—temporarily—in TOTAL darkness. Otherwise, like what Lee1959 said.

Of course Your Modus May Vary accordingly. Enjoy! :wave:
 

TonkinWarrior

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For the sake of genuine reality, this question should be restated as follows:

-->> "How many GRAINS does it take to really mess up an attacker?"

-->> Answer: 230 grains of .45 ACP hollow-point... preferably placed in the center-mass boiler-room.

Anything else is just a naive appeaser's fairy tale.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Criminals must be taught to fear their victims."
-- Col. Jeff Cooper, pistol-craft guru, author: "Principles of Personal Defense"
 

bascodog

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I am a LEO and I use my Dominator 10X on the high setting to temporary blind are cause an adversery to look away. This has worked on numerous ocassions it's actually kinda funny to watch. When you hit them with 500+ lumens inside 20 feet they kinda make that Jagermeister going down the hatch face "so smooth". :crazy: However I was at a call last week with several intoxicated good'ol boys outside there house. Long story short I hit both of the intoxicated males w/ 500+ lumens at point blank range and it didn't phase either of the drunks. :buddies:Well the one Dumb*ss pushed a fellow a officer on scene who was attempting to stop him from attacking his drunk son. That resulted in instant OC to the face and a good old fashion pig pile beat down. :dedhorse:I did chip my dominators pyrex lense on this drunks head however ..Oops.
 

colubrid

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I will agree to a test. I will put my boxing gloves on in complete darkness and someone shine there light into my eyes and see if I still knock you out.:naughty: :rock:
 

Lee1959

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Ok, do I get to shoot you with my .45 ACP I draw or beat on you with my Irish Blackthorn walking stick while you are blinking and swinging at the spot I was in when I shined the light but have moved from? :naughty:
 
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Navck

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I've myself stared into my HDS U60XR at night, the only thing it did was to irritate me. (Not blind, but I did get flashing spots fora bit)
 

jwl

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Shine a 6D Rop-Hi in their eyes and then :twak: . That should buy you some time.
 
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