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Thread: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

  1. #31
    *Flashaholic* wquiles's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Outstanding - thanks for the upodate Andrew

    How does it work with the MN20? What needs adjusted to switch from MN21 to MN20 and viceversa?

    Will
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  2. #32
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Funny you should ask.. it is absolutely automatic.. you can take the head off, change lamps and put the head back on.. turn on the light.. blamo.. done. It's one of the best parts of this design, and it's a really cool twist of the fate of physics and battery chemistry how it works.

    Explanation: Since the batteries are notorious for dropping voltage as the current goes up.. if you want to get more POWER out of the batteries, it necessitates that the voltage will be lower and the current will be higher.

    So.. the brilliance of the setup with the hotdriver is this:

    It has two settings.. independent of each other.. CURRENT and VOLTAGE.. whichever hits first wins.

    So.. the HDM6 will be set up for about 4.95A max and about 7.3V max..

    When you put in an MN20 lamp.. the voltage will go right up to 7.3V.. (and slowly decline as batteries die.. but it will stay at about 7.2V most of the battery life.. you will not see much dimming for the first 60-70 minutes.. estimated runtime is as much as 86 minutes with LOLA..

    When you put in an MN21 lamp.. the voltage will attempt to get to 7.3V.. but when it gets to about 6.7-6.8V.. it will find that it's at 4.95A and stay right there.

    the startup is much faster with the LOLA but i'm still fine-tuning the startup solution with the HDM6.

    I had to invent a different solution for shutdown and have the circuit board design done, just need to triple check all the traces and it's a done deal!

    here are a few images from my last night allnighter fixing startup issues with hotdrivers:


    Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs vLamp


    Here is the LOLA startup.. vFET vs current..


    Here is the HOLA startup curve.

    It's a bit tricky to read the current on the LOLA.. current starts very low and goes up and ends up being the top trace...it might seem like that's an excessive spike, but it's about 50% lower than w/o soft start, and probably about 1/4 to 1/6th the POWER spike.. because power is current x voltage.. and where the current spike is high, the voltage is very low... it's nearly ideal to start this way because it gives you a very rapid start while still bulb-saving.

    Since the driver didn't have enough voltage over head to run the HOLA properly (too many long wires on the bench.. i need to make some 14ga jumpers!).. I'm going to show you the osram 62138 startup curve:


    You can see that the current limit is 'fuzzy'.. you can actually hear it.. there is an oscillation that happens at startup, probably having to do with the way that voltage coming in changes from the current demand difference.. you can hear a bit of a 'squeak' during that phase if you listen very close.

    It's absolutely nothing to worry about.. every hotdriver ever made has done this.. there were a couple version (mark6 comes to mind) that had an instability issue like newbie mentioned... mark 7 introduced a capacitor on the gate of the transistor that eliminated the instability, and it's worked awesome ever since.

    Even with the model that had the instability.. it could only be found one way.. by turning off the light, and then before it was done cooling off.. try to press the light back on.. about 1 out of 10 times you could get it to try to regulate at about 1/2 voltage.. of course.. with a mag85, it could probably do that for a minute or two before heat became an issue.. and it was a very unstable equilibrium and would last 5 seconds usually and turn on fully.

    I tried to let the mag138 just work its way out of the stuck position and it never did.. the FET got so hot it desoldered itself! that was the motivating issue i needed to fix it and born was mark7.. and what became the vOne hotdriver.

    I've never seen a LOLA running before so i can't really compare. My understanding is that you'll get nearly 7.4V with fresh batteries and LOLA, so the hotdriver might be slightly dimmer, but the light was as white and brilliant as i could ever have expected of any light when running on the bench. (so far the LOLA tests were done from a driver that is outside the body).. but the lamp was inside the head, so i could aim the beam around and it was gorgeous!

    I hope i can sell a bunch of these, i think i just might buy an M6 now.. never in a million years would i have before a solution like Hotdriver M6. So much for profits on this project :-D

    Oh.. i have a decision to make.. I can either keep the temp-sensor and use a big of a 'hack' to make low-voltage cutout work.. i still have to run down a set of batteries to see how it really behaves.. turning a dial on the power supply doesn't really behave how a battery does.. or i can kill the temp sensor and replace it with the really kickbutt low-volt sensor from the BAM!

    I will be doing testing of both possibilities and i've already designed the vTwo hotdriver board to accommodate either possibility. The power drop on the FET is insignificant at HALF of that with the 1274 solutions, so i'm confident it wont be a problem, totally a non-issue... other than ONE possible example.. use in extreme heat, like desert conditions.. so.. I'm leaning heavily toward making them all with the precision low-voltage and no high temp cutout.. since they will all be used in the same device unlike the standard hotdrivers which have myriad possibilities including one with runtimes well over an hour.

    If somebody needs high-temp because of climate, i can easily make a variation.. there might be some 'training' involving paying attention to the light running out.. with the hack.. the lamp will dim DRAMATICALLY but it will try to run at like 1/2 power.. putting a LOT of heat on the FET.. i still need to test the hack out in a real world test, so it might be a moot point.. the hack might work just about as good as the precision LV chip and i can keep the high-temp on all of them.

    You won't have to decide when you order.. i will get a 'details' form after i make a batch of a few tester models that can be used for a good month while waiting for the machined parts and batteries and such to come in.. that way if there are any tweaks needed to be done, that can happen before the mass production, which will start about 3-4 weeks after the opening of the sale. (it should be about 5-6 weeks for the machined parts to get back).

    Thanks to wquiles for machining the tailcup prototype.. and lending me his cherished M6 for fitting the HDM6. I think that machining job might have been the first one he did 'for real' almost certainly. it came out amazing.. i needed to tweak a bit of it.. was too tight.. but that was perfect.. i got to be able to update my model for the full run!

    So.. 'game on'. .. get those paypal triggers ready.. i'm planning to get the pack back into the light by this weekend, and once the operation is confirmed, open up a sales thread on BST.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  3. #33
    *Flashaholic* wquiles's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Thanks Andrew - glad I was able to help a little

    Your project for the M6 is trully amazing

    Will
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  4. #34
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack


    Here's the latest computer model of the HDM6.


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  5. #35
    Flashaholic* petrev's Avatar
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    Popcorn Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Hi

    Great work - when do you get to sleep and eat . . . ?

    Pic shows HD-reversed ref prototype photos !

    Is that to do with interchangeability ?

    Cheers Pete

  6. #36
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    yes, the 'upside down' hotdriver has two purposes.. (1) protects the chips and (2) allows the swapping of the board.. notice there are TWO nuts.. one holding the battery pack together and one holding the driver board on...oops maybe the FET is hiding the lower nut, sorry.. very observant though.. there is a (3) i guess also.. makes for a very simple ground contact since there is a nice ground pad on the back of the hotdriver.

    sometimes don't sleep or eat.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  7. #37
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Really cool update!

    so i think i mentioned finding the magic chip that would let me set the shutdown voltage appropriate for the batteries independent of lamp voltage, and i even amazingly enough figured out how to use the same exact pads as the opamp for the high-temp ckt, but that of course would have meant trading the option.

    Well.. today i figured out how to jamp pack a second op-amp onto the board, and am almost done with the PCB layout.. it will open up some really nice options for the normal hotdriver, but more importantly for this thread.. means i can have the custom low-volt shutdown *and* high-temp protection, as unlikely as that would be needed with the M6 solution.. if used in a high ambient temp environment, it's not all that unlikely.. and with a light like the top of the line M6... I say.. go for the gold.

    So.. very good news.. looks like i'm just about done with the RND and only a couple days behind schedule, i should have a BST up by monday night.

    Based on how much work it took to re-work the board to make both the high-temp and the custom low-volt work, and the obvious fact it takes more parts and resources to make, i might add $5 to my original estimated prices, they will still literally pay for themselves in FOUR CHARGES folks, how crazy is that? FOUR charges! (1.1 if you buy your cells at wallmart). Four charges did i say four charges? I guess that still just blows my mind!

    -awr

    ps.. i'm leaning toward only selling fully protected packs initially using protected cells within.. mostly as a lower logistical nightmare issue.. but what i might do is that if testing goes well with the raw cells and the price difference is worth bothering.. i'd rebate the difference for people wishing to downgrade. I want to get the ball rolling as fast as possible with as much momentum as posible.. the latest calculations for the machining were an add'l week compared to the last time i did it.. so i want to get in the queue before they add on another week.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  8. #38
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    OK.. the sales thread has opened HERE. Please keep conversation on this thread.

    Time to take the 'real' poll.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  9. #39
    *Flashaholic* wquiles's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwynn
    OK.. the sales thread has opened
    Way to go Andrew

    Will
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  10. #40
    Enlightened
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Since the MN20 is so hard to come by these days, I am using the MN16 instead in my M6 when I don't need to use the HOLA. Would HDM6 work with the MN16?

  11. #41
    *Flashaholic* wquiles's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by cnee
    Since the MN20 is so hard to come by these days, I am using the MN16 instead in my M6 when I don't need to use the HOLA. Would HDM6 work with the MN16?
    I just did a search and came up with a voltage of about 6.8-6.9 volts for the MN16 (while the MN20 runs at 7.2-7.3 volts). Since the HDM6 is setup to run the MN21 at 6.8 volts or so, it "should" work fine since the soft start would prevent any spikes from killing the MN16 at startup.

    Andrew, what do you think?

    Will
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  12. #42
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Oh i replied to this but the 'bit bucket' apparently ate the reply.

    if the MN16 runs about 6.8V the HDM6 would have to be configured differently.. actually.. it would be much easier to set up to pair MN16 and MN21 since then it can be straight voltage regulation. If the MN16s are available and output similar light to the MN20 i would set up anybody that wanted that setup instead of the standard setup for M6.

    If you tried to use the standard HDM6 setup with the MN16, it would likely blow the bulb, the voltage has to be turned down.

    The HDM6 is actually not set to run a particular voltage for the MN21.. it's set for amps for the MN21 and volts for the MN20... a magical little combination since the MN21 takes more current but runs at lower voltage.. an interesting anomaly from the norm.. since normally higher power lamps are higher current and higher voltage.. however when using the same battery source, the physics work out really nicely to have current limiting for the high power and voltage limiting for the low power.. badda bing.


    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  13. #43
    Enlightened
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Thanks for the explanations. I think I would still prefer to keep the standard MN20/MN21 setup, as using the MN16 is really temporary to me...

  14. #44
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    HDM6 will certainly be set up for MN20/MN21, the no-fuss swap is incredible.


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  15. #45
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Will just emailed me that the new tailcup required for the protected cells (prototype) is done.. three cheers for wquiles.. he has been very instrumental to bring this project to be.. making both the first and second generation tailcup, and also lending his M6 to the cause.. it really is his baby.. you should have seen how it was wrapped.

    I managed to blow the MN21.. not sure if i mentioned that.. be very careful if you decide to tweak the output of your HDM6.. (just like all hotdrivers.. there are pots to adjust the output)... when i was hooking up the test leads, i shorted vBat to vBulb.. the lamp lasted less than 1/20th of a second.. i guess it goes to prove you really can't run the MN21 from such a power plant w/o regulation.

    replacements were shipped friday, i should be able to get some beamshots online this week to show how the HOLA and LOLA compare to other lights like the Mag11, Mag85, M66, and just to be mean, the Mag100s.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  16. #46
    *Flashaholic* wquiles's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Thanks much Andrew

    Here is a link to the version two prototype

    Will
    Please no PM/Visitor Msg's. Email for questions/Paypal: wquiles [at] gmail {dot} com. Please visit my new website.

  17. #47

    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Great job guys.. This is going to be revolutionary!!
    Surefire E2L, E1L, M6, C2, G2, L5, Pelican M6-2390, Inova XO, T1, T3, LaserDevices OV-1 ...

  18. #48

    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    2 quick questions: 1) will this battery pack work with the KL6 head, and 2) how exactly is the tail cup removed, i'd hate to mess up the stock tailcap? btw, i have the JS battery pack and love it, except i tend to forget to recharge after letting it sit for a month.

    chuck

  19. #49
    *Flashaholic* wquiles's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by ronson5
    2 quick questions: 1) will this battery pack work with the KL6 head, and 2) how exactly is the tail cup removed, i'd hate to mess up the stock tailcap? btw, i have the JS battery pack and love it, except i tend to forget to recharge after letting it sit for a month.

    chuck
    That is a tough one. The KL6 was designed for 3 primary cells (9 volt nominal), but this regulated pack will be set to 7.2/7.3v, so even though I am sure that you will get the KL6 to light up, I don't know if the KL6 will still work in regulation at that low of a voltage

    I no longer have a KL6 head, so I can't find out for you for sure, although if you have an adjustable power supply you can set it up to 7.2V and try it out

    Now, in terms of removing the tailcup, it is VERY easy to do. Pull the spring out, and with some pliers brab the inner part of the tailcup and simply pull out - it is just pressed-in and it comes out if you pull out hard enough

    Will
    Last edited by wquiles; 04-24-2006 at 02:35 PM. Reason: typo
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  20. #50
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    I'd have to know more about the lamp used with the KL6 head. the M6 also uses 9v nominal pack.. 3s2p.. some fancy wiring since it's in a 2s3p 'look'.

    the JS pack is voltage regulated to 6.8V i believe.. does that light use MN16 lamps at 6.8V? the HD would have to be re-tuned for that lamp if you'd want to use that lamp as mentioned earlier... it's doable, not as efficient at getting the energy from the battery to lamp as the JS pack, but with twice the energy, it's a bit of a moot point, you will still have well over an hour of runtime if the lamp is the output i think it is.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  21. #51

    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    the reason i asked about the kl6 head was that JS had said in his mr6 thread not to use his battery pack with the KL6. i think he said it could destroy the KL6. awr, the KL6 is just the lux5 led for the m6.

    thx for the info guys.
    chuck

  22. #52
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    aah i see.. yes, we'd hvae to make a speical setting to work with that head.. but holy cow it'd run forever.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  23. #53

    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    well, i placed my order. it would cool if the kl6 would work, but the 40min runtime on the hola why i'm placing my order. do let us know, tho, if u figure out whether your battery pack will work w/ the kl6.

  24. #54
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    i just need to know the voltage and we can makr the right tweak


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  25. #55
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    good news.. i found a power jack that looks like it'll fit.. means i can incorporate a power jack on the side that is on the tailcap side.. you can charge just by taking off the tailcap.. and if you don't need to use the alligator clips for another purpose.. you can have your charger purpose-built with the power plug.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  26. #56
    Flashaholic* dizzy's Avatar
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    Buttrock Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Great news Andrew. This just keeps on getting better and better.You and petrev are really on a roll with all these innovations.

    Keep it going and SF won't be able to build the M6's fast enough.I'm sure it will, and has, helped their M6 sales, even though they would not like to admit it.

    What ever it takes to keep sales going will only benefit us all with more new products in the future.
    The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!!

  27. #57
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    people occasionally ask if i will 'get in trouble'.. making surefire and maglite mods.. i say.. as long as they require the purchase of a maglite or a surefire light.. i am only helping their business, that is a win-win situation for them.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

  28. #58
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    Popcorn Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwynn
    people occasionally ask if i will 'get in trouble'.. making surefire and maglite mods.. i say.. as long as they require the purchase of a maglite or a surefire light.. i am only helping their business, that is a win-win situation for them.

    -awr
    I couldn't agree more!!

    I'm sure they love not having to R&D all the accessories that help to sell their lights.

    Did I see a 250w Mag Mod somewhere?? LOL!!
    The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!!

  29. #59
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    Quote Originally Posted by andrewwynn

    ps.. i'm leaning toward only selling fully protected packs initially using protected cells within.. mostly as a lower logistical nightmare issue.. but what i might do is that if testing goes well with the raw cells and the price difference is worth bothering.. i'd rebate the difference for people wishing to downgrade. I want to get the ball rolling as fast as possible with as much momentum as posible.. the latest calculations for the machining were an add'l week compared to the last time i did it.. so i want to get in the queue before they add on another week.

    -awr

    If you do go the raw/unprotected route, have you came up with a good way to monitor individual cell voltage and individual cell temperature?

  30. #60
    *Flashaholic* andrewwynn's Avatar
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    Default Re: AWR Hotdriver Regulated M6 Battery Pack

    no, i personally would use RAW cells because of the size of the cell is not dangerously big, and the hotdriver will monitor vBat to the point that if any series cell is weak it just won't turn on.. the charger does the dealing with voltage going in and if you don't use an automatic cell-count charger it's pretty difficult to over charge. Unless i picked up a goverment or LEO contract i wouldn't put more effort into the SFM6 as the 'market' seems to have saturated near about 25-30 units. I might look into including a separate board into the design to include per-cell protection for raw cells but the price is low enough for protected cells it wasn't worth my time and effort.

    -awr


    Regulated hotwire 'the hotdriver' also for Surefire M6 • 3-level high-power LED drop-in for mag. the 'BAM!' click here
    I have disabled PMs.. use the 'email' link instead! • Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light...

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