Malkoff        
Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 128

Thread: Li-ion to jump start a car?

  1. #31
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    305

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    I don't think "jumper cables" are really meant for starting an engine, alone. My jumper cables look to be 8 gauge wires, about 4 feet long? There's no way they can supply the current needed to start an engine, without a huge drop in voltage across them. I think jumper cables are really for giving your car battery a bit of charge, and most of the current actually comes from your own car battery when you start the engine, with a bit of help from the boosting battery.

    I've never tried this, but I don't think you'd be able to start an engine if you disconnect your own battery, and try to just use the boosting battery connected to jumper cables. Not with typical cheap jumper cables, anyway.
    That is why if you want real jumper cables you will buy some heavier gauge cables, I made my own with 2/0 welding cable. They will indeed start a car even if that car has NO battery, I have done it more than a few times. I once jumped a diesel truck with my cables after the guy tried with his tiny "speaker wire" sized cables that would not even turn it over, needless to say he was impressed and was going to buy some more impressive cables.

    I Think these Li-ion jumper packs are a great idea for the just in case, plus you could use most of them to charge a phone or whatever which would be nice. I will probably be getting one at some point, just need to figure out what one is decent quality and good value.

    I have read at least a couple articles talking about auto makers possibly switching to Li-ion batteries for the primary starter battery, the main reason for them is weight savings (weight saved is mpg gained). It would not surprise me to see something like this happen in the next 5-10 years, but who knows.

  2. #32
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,604

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    I don't think "jumper cables" are really meant for starting an engine, alone. My jumper cables look to be 8 gauge wires, about 4 feet long? There's no way they can supply the current needed to start an engine, without a huge drop in voltage across them. I think jumper cables are really for giving your car battery a bit of charge, and most of the current actually comes from your own car battery when you start the engine, with a bit of help from the boosting battery.

    I've never tried this, but I don't think you'd be able to start an engine if you disconnect your own battery, and try to just use the boosting battery connected to jumper cables. Not with typical cheap jumper cables, anyway.
    But I've read many reviews that claim success starting a car with just the jumper pack (no car battery). In fact, some say that it is necessary to disconnect the car battery when the jumper pack is low (so that all of the jumper's juice goes to starting the car, and not also charging the car battery).

    The common jump cables in the photos I posted use about 1 foot of 10 AWG wire and EC5 connectors. Here's what one RC site claims for their 10 AWG

    This 10 AWG wire is rated for 8 min continuous 130 Amps with 10mph x 80degF air flow, and 200 Amp burst rating for 5 seconds provided the average current (including the bursts) is not more than 80 Amps.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 01-15-2015 at 08:47 AM.

  3. #33
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    305

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    But I've read many reviews that claim success starting a car with the jumper pack alone. In fact, some say that it is necessary to disconnect the car battery when the jumper pack is low (so that all of the jumper's juice goes to starting the car, and not also charging the car battery).

    The common jump cables in the photos I posted use about 1 foot of 10 AWG wire and EC5 connectors. Here's what one RC site claims for their 10 AWG
    I have personally done this as well, worked at an auto body shop for a few years, and often we would need to start and move a car with no battery in it. At that point the jump pack we used was a AGM (sealed lead acid) based and was probably 20+ lbs. I would be curious how well one of these smaller Li-ion units would hold up to actual use.

    The shorter the cable the more current it will carry vs a longer cable, so a jumper pack with fairly short cables will still handle decent current. Obviously if you are trying to start a big diesel tractor or some other equipment that normally has huge primary batteries you will need some different equipment to jump it, but most of what we are talking about is regular autos, cars etc.

  4. #34
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    1,035

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    NOCO has entered this market with their Genius Boost GB30 Ultra Safe 400A device. I could not find any specifics on the Li-ion cell they are using, other than it having a 24Wh capacity.

    http://www.geniuschargers.com/boost

  5. #35

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    24Wh is pretty small considering SLAs in even the cheap starters are most likely 12v 10Ah or 120wh. It sounds like it may start a car that starts easily but if one needs to crank a few times for a few minutes the battery may not have enough power to do that as many car batteries have in excess of 700 cranking amps for when it gets really cold outside
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  6. #36
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    South Wales UK
    Posts
    198

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    I watched my local garage start a Mitsubishi L200 3 litre turbo diesel (higher compression than a petrol motor so harder to turn over) with just one of these (no regular battery connected) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-30000...item48778eddcc
    The engine had just had a top end re-build & this was the first start.
    Turned the motor over fast.
    He left the jump pack connected for several minutes with the engine running although I see from the advert that it states to remove after 30 seconds ?
    I must admit that I am tempted to get one as a "just in case" item as they are so easy to carry.
    In fact I am thinking of getting 2, one to leave in my car & one to leave on my boat.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by bella-headlight View Post
    I watched my local garage start a Mitsubishi L200 3 litre turbo diesel (higher compression than a petrol motor so harder to turn over) with just one of these (no regular battery connected) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-30000...item48778eddcc
    The engine had just had a top end re-build & this was the first start.
    Turned the motor over fast.
    He left the jump pack connected for several minutes with the engine running although I see from the advert that it states to remove after 30 seconds ?
    I must admit that I am tempted to get one as a "just in case" item as they are so easy to carry.
    In fact I am thinking of getting 2, one to leave in my car & one to leave on my boat.
    If that is truly 30,000mah or 30Ah then it is about 360 watts which has more available power than SLA packs. I think there is two things needed... high current capability and enough capacity to sustain cranking long enough to start an engine. Most engines these days start a lot easier than older engines but if you did get a car that has a hard time starting some of these packs may poop out after the pack depletes. a 30Ah pack that is turning an engine that takes 400-500 amps can theoretically maintain cranking for about 6 minutes or so but one thing to consider is that battery packs wear in time and capacity is reduced so half way through the life of the pack your 6 minutes of cranking time may drop to closer to 3 minutes which would have you needing to recharge it after every use. I have a feeling we will see more and more of these lion packs in stores as people will be more impressed by the small size and claims than realizing the actual use of them may not meet up with expectations a few years down the line.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  8. #38
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,604

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    If that is truly 30,000mah or 30Ah then it is about 360 watts which has more available power than SLA packs..
    30Ah is at the nominal 3.7V, so it would be 30Ah * 3.7V = 111Wh. But the capacity on these packs is usually exaggerated, as for most Chinese cells from nonreputable sources. It is probably 40-50Wh at best.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 01-17-2015 at 12:03 PM.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    No, 30Ah is at the nominal 3.7V, so it would be 30Ah * 3.7V = 111Wh. But the capacity on these packs is usually exaggerated, as for most Chinese cells from nonreputable sources. It is probably 40-50Ah at best.
    That would make some sense as I'm guessing the average 18650 sold in stuff worth anything is about 2000mah it would take 15 of them to equal 30Ah and they would be in 5 strings of 3 or 4 strings of 4 which would reduce the capacity at 12v down to 1/3 or 1/4 of the 30Ah figure lets say 7.5-10Ah.... which to me is not any better than a decent SLA pack and I certainly don't think 18650s can take nearly as much abuse as SLAs can.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  10. #40
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,604

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Yes, one can often refute bogus capacity claims just by doing simple arithmetic that shows the energy density would be higher than the current known limit for Li-ion cells.

    You managed to quote me during the two minutes before I fixed the typo: it should say 40-50Wh (not Ah).
    Last edited by Gauss163; 01-17-2015 at 02:29 PM.

  11. #41

    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    I was thinking of getting one of the Anker models as I've found them to be a pretty reliable company.



    Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums

  12. #42
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    South Wales UK
    Posts
    198

    Default Re: Battery Jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    If that is truly 30,000mah or 30Ah then it is about 360 watts which has more available power than SLA packs. I think there is two things needed... high current capability and enough capacity to sustain cranking long enough to start an engine. Most engines these days start a lot easier than older engines but if you did get a car that has a hard time starting some of these packs may poop out after the pack depletes. a 30Ah pack that is turning an engine that takes 400-500 amps can theoretically maintain cranking for about 6 minutes or so but one thing to consider is that battery packs wear in time and capacity is reduced so half way through the life of the pack your 6 minutes of cranking time may drop to closer to 3 minutes which would have you needing to recharge it after every use. I have a feeling we will see more and more of these lion packs in stores as people will be more impressed by the small size and claims than realizing the actual use of them may not meet up with expectations a few years down the line.
    What I have written is absolutely true witnessed with my own eyes a few weeks before xmas.
    The garage owner gave me the jump pack to look at before he used it & when he passed it to me saying "what do you think of this" I thought he was giving me his new mobile phone to look at.
    He then told me what it was & that it had been given to him by a rep to try out.
    He said that he had used it to start a few small cc petrol engined cars & was going to see if it would start a 3 litre diesel engined pick up that they had just done a top end re-build on.
    It started it easily & he said that he was very impressed with it.
    I am not 100% sure if it was the same pack as in the ebay link I posted just that that pack has the same lime green end as his.
    Capacity claims may well be over inflated as per a lot of chinese stuff but the one he has certainly works.
    Next time I see him I will ask how he is getting on with on it.
    Last edited by bella-headlight; 01-18-2015 at 03:54 AM.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    How well does it work in low temp environments?

  14. #44
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    1,035

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    NOCO has a video showing their GB30 starting a V8 Ford F150 after both the truck and booster were at -30C for 2 hours.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSKU0nKY4I

  15. #45

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    NOCO has a video showing their GB30 starting a V8 Ford F150 after both the truck and booster were at -30C for 2 hours.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlSKU0nKY4I
    I watched the video and to be honest I noticed two things going on here the first is it seems like the truck wasn't -20C to begin with and was put in I guess a freezer for 2 hours along with the battery pack and there is no way an engine at even 10C can drop to -20C in 2 hours unless you have colder temps than that blowing at the block itself. The second thing I noticed was the sound of it starting sounded like it wasn't cranking anywhere near as fast as normal and it was sounding like just before it started it was starting to slow down cranking speed and that was with less than 15 seconds of use. Now this may be fine if your car starts easily in cold weather the first time. Sometimes my truck won't start the first time I crank it I have to pause for a few seconds and try again and then it starts. I may be a skeptic but if you go on over to amazon.com and start reading the negative reviews you start to get a picture that this pack may be woefully underpowered. These days it is quite easy to flood the internet with fake reviews and to be honest it sort of looks that way on youtube with most of the reviews coming from the company itself (sponsored).
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    I just noticed that some reviewers were claiming to be skeptical of this products high ratings because a lot of the 5 star ratings were from people who got the product free (Vine program) and may not even have sincerely tried it out enough to give it an honest rating. I would be certainly willing for a CF expert to chime in that has this product and can give us a less biased opinion.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  17. #47

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Interesting thread! I'm joining in to be up2date!

    Got this one yesterday: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00Q...=A373V12SXOG77
    20000mAh and 300A (600peak) starting Amps.
    Did a discharge test at the EC5 plugs (which are, i assume direct battery poles...?) and got from the 3s battery ~3000mAh!!
    I then did a start test at my Octavia 2l Diesel engine without the main battery connected.
    The first time i cranked it didn't start, a few seconds later at the second attemt it started!

    So i think with the main battery connected, even when it is broken down, it should be possible to start the engine with this jump starter!

  18. #48
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Great Lakes
    Posts
    2,302

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    +

    You can make your own car starter by buying a 3S Lipo battery for about $50 (example: 11.1V 5200mAh 50C )
    and making some cables w/alligator clips that will adapt to the 3S connector in place

    ..just need a Lipo charger

    >> Lipo batteries have much greater C ratings than Li-Ion
    Lipo = big Amp currents



    3S are listed as 11.1V,, fully charged they are 12.6V & that's the important number
    Last edited by orbital; 02-09-2015 at 09:17 AM. Reason: wording

  19. #49

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    I also tested this one recently: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00P...A3JWKAKR8XB7XF

    I got 4600mAh out from the 3s lipo battery!
    It is rated for 300A cont. and 600A Peak!
    I did a start test with disconnected main battery on my 2L diesel engiene and it started at the first attemt! (the car was sitting over night at 5°C!)
    So for me this is the best jupm starter in this class! I can recommend to anyone with a diesel engine!

    All the others rated as 200/400A are not suitable for diesel engines!
    Also be Aware of the weight of the jump starter - it should be around 450g to have enough lipo power inside to start a diesel engine! (just my findings after testing some different models!)

    @orbital:
    you are right, but you didn't get the decent housing with the other Features! Maybe useful sometime....

  20. #50

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedog1 View Post
    I also tested this one recently: http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B00P...A3JWKAKR8XB7XF

    I got 4600mAh out from the 3s lipo battery!
    It is rated for 300A cont. and 600A Peak!
    I did a start test with disconnected main battery on my 2L diesel engiene and it started at the first attemt! (the car was sitting over night at 5°C!)
    So for me this is the best jupm starter in this class! I can recommend to anyone with a diesel engine!

    All the others rated as 200/400A are not suitable for diesel engines!
    Also be Aware of the weight of the jump starter - it should be around 450g to have enough lipo power inside to start a diesel engine! (just my findings after testing some different models!)

    @orbital:
    you are right, but you didn't get the decent housing with the other Features! Maybe useful sometime....
    Most cars around here are larger than 2L my truck has a 4.0L V6 in it. Get an older car with a 5.7L motor in it and these jump start packs would have their hands full.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  21. #51
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    1,035

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitedog1 View Post
    …………………...I did a start test with disconnected main battery on my 2L diesel engiene and it started at the first attemt! (the car was sitting over night at 5°C!)………………..
    Was the booster battery also at 5C?

  22. #52

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    Was the booster battery also at 5C?
    no, at room temperature!

    @Lynx_Arc
    Yea, i'm from Europe...
    yours is a Petrol engine right? (4.0L V6) Because these need not as high amps during cranking as diesel engines! So your V6 can probably started also with this device!

  23. #53
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Great Lakes
    Posts
    2,302

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    +

    if an alternator keeps a cars electrical system running at 14V..

    Wonder if a 4S Lipo pack charged up to 14V, would be a stronger option for a starter setup??
    200amps @ 14V is clearly stronger than 12ish

    Although the cells aren't up to full charge, so this may effect amp current,, hmmm


    watts = amps x volts
    Last edited by orbital; 02-09-2015 at 04:25 PM.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by orbital View Post
    +
    if an alternator keeps a cars electrical system running at 14V..

    Wonder if a 4S Lipo pack charged up to 14V, would be a stronger option for a starter setup??
    200amps @ 14V is clearly stronger than 12ish

    Although the cells aren't up to full charge, so this may effect amp current,, hmmm
    Yes, personally .... if I would use just a blank battery to start i would use a 4s life battery which is at full Charge at 4*3,6V=14,4V !!

  25. #55

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    I think one problem with a 14v starting battery able to put out over 200amps would be the impact on the vehicles battery as you essentially try to "charge" it at a 200A rate the results may not be optimal (could be dangerous).
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  26. #56
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    South Wales UK
    Posts
    198

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    My friend bought one of these recently from Costco UK & showed it to me today.
    It was just off the charger (5 minutes) & showing fully charged.
    According to my DMM it showed 12.27v ?

  27. #57
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Saskatoon, Canada
    Posts
    785

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by realdreams View Post
    How well does it work in low temp environments?
    I didn't read this whole thread but most of it. I live in Canada and it is safe to say that for at least 8 months of the year, none of these products would ever work. The only way they would ever work is if they charged the lead acid battery for long enough that it was able to provide enough power to crank the vehicle. Due to the extreme cold where I live, batteries that start to preform poorly get weeded out on an annual basis. The most common reason people need a boost where I live is because the vehicle is almost always kept in a garage and the vehicle got parked outside too long the block got WAY colder than usual.

    Unless the battery is nearly new, you almost always need decent synthetic oil to start an engine with a block and battery core temperature of -20C. It also doesn't help that a significantly larger portion of the vehicles in this county are trucks/SUVs, or at the very least vans, and have higher displacement engines than nearly all cars.

    Another thing working against these chargers is that they are most likely kept in the vehicle and have the same temperature as the engine. All battery performance is degraded at low - and exponentially so at extreme low - temperatures. For those who have never seen below even 10F (-12C) this may be unfathomable to you.

    In summary, the starter would have to be VERY premium, have a very heavy (relative) and short cable, be kept at roomish temperature, and have excellent batteries in it to even stand a chance where I live.

  28. #58
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,899

    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    Lead acid batteries charge at over 14 volts and for short term high current I am not worried.

    LiPo IS lithium ion. It is a construction method not a chemistry for the nth time :-)

    Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.

  29. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    3,899

    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    AGM batteries still do quite well at -20C, much better than flooded and much better than lithium chemistries. With the low weight of the boosters I wonder how much self heating comes into play after the first couple quick boost attempts?

    On average cars in Canada are smaller than the US.

    Posted by really crappy Tapatalk app that is questionable wrt respect of personal data.

  30. #60
    Flashaholic* orbital's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Great Lakes
    Posts
    2,302

    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    +

    Couple reasons why I was banging-on about just getting a 3~4S rc pack & making your own

    > while back my battery was just not enough to start, really not in a spot to get a jump,,, could have used a Lipo boost
    ..second about making you own,, Lipo batteries don't like to be stored in fully charged state, so it's a bit of a conundrum for those nice units with USB ect.*

    I'd rather ruin a $50 battery over time than a $90~140 complete setup.

    *which are using Lipo batteries anyway

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •