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Thread: Li-ion to jump start a car?

  1. #91

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    I'm not aware of any jump starters that use LiFePO. Beware exaggerated marketing claims...(Antigravity XP-10) had 3x the capacity of the others, so almost surely it is not LiFePO...What units did you check out that had LiFePO cellsI'm not saying you're not right as I haven't cotact?
    I'm not saying you're not right as I haven't contacted AntiGravity https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...sp?RecID=12594 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KQSEOPI/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687702&pf_rd_s= lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00HE00OYG&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX 0DER&pf_rd_r=04RYFV2W0YKY75HKNZ06


    Last edited by IT_Architect; 08-20-2015 at 12:13 PM.

  2. #92
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    That reminds me that in an earlier thread someone posted what might be a Tenergy jump pack containing LiFePO cells. But until someone does a teardown I am a bit skeptical, since some Chinese "manufacturers" are known to go to great lengths to create Frankenbattery fakes, e.g. below are excerpts from a Youtube video teardown of a fake Sony NP-F970 videocam battery. What a piece of work, eh? I shudder to think what may be inside some of these jump packs, esp. now that competition is heating up and some are selling for less than $30 on eBay. Caveat emptor!

    Last edited by Gauss163; 08-20-2015 at 08:05 PM.

  3. #93
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    Default Beware the scammers

    Beware that some scammers have recently started listing these LiPo car jump starters at too-good-to-be-tre prices on eBay, e.g. here and here. If you see them listed for < $30 by a seller who previously sold only very cheap items then it is probably a scam.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 09-02-2015 at 10:18 PM.

  4. #94
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    Default Re: Beware the fires too!

    Beware also that some of these jump starters have recently been reported to catch on fire while charging.

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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters



    what's the starting current for something like a corolla/civic? i just built this 48V pack from Samsung 25R cells (rated 20A per cell)

  6. #96
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Hopefully you are charging that beast more intelligently than the "surefire" chargers linked in my prior message. I shudder to think about the fire that would produce.

  7. #97
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    haha of course. iCharger 106B+ it's a 250W charger. that's just a small pack.

    this samsung 26F pack has 96 cells:



    i'm also planning to build 200+ samsung 29E

  8. #98
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Old thread I know.

    Is 140 degrees the max these jump starters can take ?

    Pointless really as even in the UK summer temps in car get way higher.

  9. #99
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Well these are supercaps but it is still interesting.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM

    John.
    "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." - Terry Pratchett.

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Hello Clever boffins
    My 98 mercedes benz has a very long ( ie 2 m ) positive cable running to the starter.Battery is under the back seat
    There is a +ve pole under the bonnet for emergency jumpstarts.
    I have a new battery.
    I have checked all connections and seem good. Electric wiring appears original and in good order
    Problem.. car has a slow start crank. Diesels don't like slow crank starting especially in Winter.
    If I use the emergency +ve pole with jumper leads the starter cranks fast like a gem.
    My thought....permanently mount one of these mini jumpstart batteries on the +ve pole under the bonnet ?
    Thoughts ????
    Cheers from Australia

  11. #101

    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by farmerpete View Post
    Hello Clever boffins
    My 98 mercedes benz has a very long ( ie 2 m ) positive cable running to the starter.Battery is under the back seat
    There is a +ve pole under the bonnet for emergency jumpstarts.
    I have a new battery.
    I have checked all connections and seem good. Electric wiring appears original and in good order
    Problem.. car has a slow start crank. Diesels don't like slow crank starting especially in Winter.
    If I use the emergency +ve pole with jumper leads the starter cranks fast like a gem.
    My thought....permanently mount one of these mini jumpstart batteries on the +ve pole under the bonnet ?
    Thoughts ????
    Cheers from Australia
    Get someone to help you and measure voltage from the battery terminals when trying to start and then under the hood where the cables connect too and note how much the voltage drops. This should give you a clue where the problem is.
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  12. #102
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    I was hoping to find some new and useful information on the Lithium booster packs. Many sold appear No-name type (no name manufacturers behind them and warranty is useless if they either don't exist and across the ocean).

    A lot specify mAH and Peak current, yeah well peak is gone the instant the load is connected. It Cranking Amps we need to know and performance at Zero F or viable winter temperature. Thats when you really need a boost that works, not just summer time.

    Even Noco plays the numbers game. I contact them the other day on chat!! The rep had NO CLUE about cranking anps and got back with a list of engines it would start. Right, clueless IMO and why would I pay north of $100 and not get a wall charger. They don't provide one. Charge via USB is not smart. Many USB ports are 500mA max, USB 2.0 and with ratings of 12,000mAH to over 20,000mAH it would take a extremely long time to recharge. Re Charge time is not indicated by the OEM's so far in hours of looking, reading and checking so far neither on Amazon.ca or eBay which many have elevated mAH ratings which cannot be true as well. All the more reason to know the actual cranking amps. My auto battery says 690CCA, would I expect a 300-400 amp lithium pack to start it when I need it in the winter?

  13. #103
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Quote Originally Posted by tripplec View Post
    All the more reason to know the actual cranking amps. My auto battery says 690CCA, would I expect a 300-400 amp lithium pack to start it when I need it in the winter?
    I thought the purpose of booster batteries was to give your auto battery a partial recharge, which gets its own cranking voltage & amps back up to a level that can start your car. I've boosted cars from a 12v battery, but I've done it using fairly long 8 gauge wires. There's no way my booster battery could deliver all the CCA needed to start a car by itself. The car is starting from its own auto battery, with a bit of help from the booster battery. But the main purpose of the booster is to charge the auto battery.

    So, I don't think you need 690CCA from those booster packs. You just need enough energy in them to give your auto battery a decent charge, and to help out a bit when you start the engine.

  14. #104
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    The quality hand held boosters will start good size v-6 engines with the battery entirely removed from the car. Anti-Gravity units will. Especially the Heavy Duty unit. The purpose is not to partially recharge the low or dead car battery. They are made for immediate starting. Back in the Chevy V-8 days, starter motors required around 250 Amps to work. Todays starters in smaller engines require significantly less. The Lipo style battery in the small Anti-Gravity starter unit is only 3.6 Ah. The battery in the Heavy Duty unit is about 6.6 Ah. There's video of the HD unit providing 330 Amps to an electronic load. It maintains about 9.5 Volts or so for well over the time it requires an engine to start.

    I just got through making my own unit using a LiFeP04 pack which provides a slightly higher Voltage than do the Lipo based starters and much safer to keep in the vehicle. Not to mention virtually no self-discharge.



    Last edited by BVH; 01-05-2018 at 06:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Okay, those leads are way shorter than the booster cables you typically get in hardware stores. I think my booster cables would be struggling with 100 amps.

  16. #106
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Less cable, less resistance and less Voltage loss. With these small units, you get up and close to things.
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    Default Re: Li-ion to jump start a car?

    Yes, which is why I thought that boosts primarily worked by charging the car's battery, and not by trying to deliver all those starting amps over long, thin, booster cables.

  18. #108
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    I have one of the Anti-Gravity HD units and it's amazing. Friends V8 Ford PU wouldn't crank and I offered help. He said he'd gut out his cables, so I opened my coat and said "don't need them, get back in". Made the connection and it started right up. He was going to order one when he got home.

    It wasn't as cold as it is right now, but it was close to freezing.

    You do have to keep it charged of course, but it comes with both AC and car chargers.

  19. #109
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    I got one of these Supposedly High End Standard Lead acid AGM boosters by Stanely. Its not made by them it turns out someone license the name only.

    Rated at 1000 Amp Peak, 500 Amp boost !! But read the small sticker on the back and its laughable. 1000 Amp Peak 1 sec (which is gone the moment you make the clamped connection like a surge), 500 amp 3 sec, 300 Amp cranking !!!

    The same product is sold under Eliminator and I see a Dewalt version as well. I used in mostly for its attached air compressor for convenience and it burned out or wore out in 2 years. I have had to boost my sons vehicle a few times. I connect it and in never was able to start whatever vehicle he needed started. Useless, I went and connect his old Eliminator rated at 700 amp (not details on it but likely a lot less cranking but a bigger unit). It started every time.

    I don't see any 300 or 400 amp unit starting most engines in -20C or lower personally. But thats when I really need it to work!! < -20C for sure other wise a waste of money.

  20. #110
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by GaryM View Post
    .......................You do have to keep it charged of course, but it comes with both AC and car chargers.
    This is one of the reasons I love the LiFeP04 chemistry batteries. In order for the Lipo units to work, they need to be fully charged. But fully charging and keeping a Lipo fully charged is the worst thing you can do for it. This greatly shortens the life of the battery. They should be kept at storage charge (about 3.85 Volts Per Cell). It's a Catch-22.
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  21. #111
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    I picked up a NOCO GB150 last year. After a year of use I am totally impressed.

    In the vehicle charging takes a couple of hours but if you want to charge it in the house it takes overnight. If you use the unit as a power supply it runs for close to 8 hours, then shuts off. Running the light at maximum brightness for 8 hours uses about 25% of the capacity. I believe this unit has an 8 Ah battery pack.

    When I anticipate only having to start small engines I keep the unit at about 50% charge. When dealing with large engines I bump that up to 100%. The idea is to store the unit at less than full charge for longer life. If I need to help start a larger engine I can usually plug the charger in and bring it closer to a full charge. So far this has worked out very well.

    I have had several opportunities to start cars and vans with dead batteries (left interior lights on) and 3 cases of assisting weak batteries in temperatures in the -10F to -15F range.

    The most difficult start was a truck that had a battery disconnect that wasn't used. The engine was about a 9 liter diesel and the truck had dual 12V batteries hooked in parallel. When I attached the GB150 to the battery I had a voltage reading of 1.80 volts. Temperature was about +15F.

    I hooked up and the truck cranked but didn't start. I tried a couple of more times and eventually it did start. I was impressed.

    The next day I went to show off my jump pack and while I was showing about a 50% charge, the truck wouldn't start. I should have charged the jump pack back up overnight. Oh well, live and learn. I now know the limits and that counts for something.

    This unit won't fit in your pocket and is overkill if you only need to start cars, but it has worked out very well for my needs.

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  22. #112
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    If you do keep at lead acid jump starter make sure you top if off every few months, they will last much longer. I got 8 years out of my last one, and it had a generic Chinese battery in it. I replaced the battery for less than $40 (21ah).

  23. #113
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    The ones I have looked at have Only One Year Warranty which includes NOCO and that GB150 is a very high cranking spec'd lithium pack. They don't say what but from what they do indicate and the prices is many times the GB30 or 40. I rather have a digital display on voltage and & charge as many offshore units have. I don't care for the LED Noco use. I have two of the chargers and the G1100 works better than the higher rated G3500 which will not charge everything for some reason. Also the G3500 emits a lot of RFI and kills FM signal in my garage which is poor engineering IMO. How they could get them approved with that design is unclear.

    Its extremely difficult to communicate with anyone at NOCO as well. I'll be buying a solution from someone else anyway now. Just not sure who or when.

  24. #114
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    Hello Tripplec,

    The GB150 has a digital volt meter and on my unit it is accurate.

    I haven't looked at any of their chargers so can't comment on them.

    The performance and build seem sound and it will be interesting to see how long the unit lasts. I tend to use it a lot and expect it to last around 3 years.

    I called NOCO and found that if the question involves more than simple use, the person on the other end of the phone doesn't have a "deep" understanding of the unit. I actually had more questions answered by reviewing you tube videos of other users.

    I purchased my unit based upon the performance observed from others using it. After a year the only downside I am aware of is that if you drop it from the top of a truck fender, the case cracks. The battery pack is fastened to both sides of the case using sticky foam tape so the case doesn't fly off, but a crack in the case makes it less water resistant. Also, a drop hard enough to crack the case may damage the battery pack. I decided that if I ever drop mine and crack the case, I will just replace it.

    Tom
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  25. #115
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    I saw that in the lineup of their series and posted US prices as well. They certainly are up their!! The only one with a meter etc and yours would have come with a wall charger that you mentioned I am sure. The GB40 says its option but not listed nor is the part # mentioned. I tried contacting them and as you said the person is hopeless. I filled in an online questionaire for info wanting to speak to an engineer etc. LOL No call back from the. My money stays put and someone else will be in line.

    I am sure they use to list a phone number but no more. I don't do social media to contact companies. Phone or email, most chat support have dummies behind the keyboard and copy and paste answers not relevant in many cases.

  26. #116
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    This clearly shows that the NOCO is over rated, misleading and not up to scratch against a even lower rated unit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW0f-cH0eDc

  27. #117
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    Quote Originally Posted by tripplec View Post
    This clearly shows that the NOCO is over rated, misleading and not up to scratch against a even lower rated unit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW0f-cH0eDc
    Not surprising. Most likely the numbers on all the jump-starter packs are as exaggerated (up to 10x) just like "10000mAh" Ultrafire 18650 cells. It's a never ending spiral of marketing hype.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 01-11-2018 at 02:43 PM.

  28. #118
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    Hello Tripplec,

    Interesting video but...

    Let's take a critical look at it.

    The NOCO units have a battery pack made up of 3 cells. That means that a fully charged pack would have a voltage of 3 X 4.2 = 12.6 volts. The guy in the video measured the pack at 12.11 volts. Taking 12.11 divided by 3 = 4.036 volts per cell. That is only about 80% charged or a little over.

    A better test would have involved a fully charged pack. Since the NOCO uses lights to indicate state of charge and since the state of charge was over 75% it showed 100% which is an error.

    Withdrawing the ram showed around 990 watts. Going to my handy Joules to watts conversion calculator I find that 7000 Joules for 3 seconds should give me 2333 watts. When the ram was dead headed the jump pack died as it was not able to keep up with the load.

    Looking at the lead acid battery test it would appear that the GB40 should perform similar to the lead acid battery if it is fully charged but at 80% it falls flat on its face.

    For what it is worth... Those that use these jump packs tell me that the GB40 works great for snow machines, 4 wheelers, garden tractors, motorcycles, and small car engines. Larger vehicles are hit and miss and the GB40 is not reliable for them.

    I have to agree with Gauss163. The advertising claims seem to be inflated...

    Tom
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  29. #119
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    Yes, smaller engines will work for sure. The competitive comparison used performed far better even though rated much less crank amps. He did a sub zero test as well with 3 different packs, these two plus and Audiovox, since people wanted to know how well it works (its winter when you have to be certain it can perform!!!). It was around -23C if I recall anyway. The Noco failed miserably and that extremely important. As he says and I have to others the Peak is meaningless. Its the steady current that's important to power the load device. Noco does not publish CA or CCA at all and just talk about what size/type of engines it can boost. LOL Yeah right.... overstated IMO as well.

    If you like I can see if I can find the colds test video off the same area this was found.

    OK found it for you. PS I am sure he's charged them more than once. The chargers likely don't finish off where they should as you pointed out and that's what you're dealing with. I know my auto G3500 need to be set a COLD mode to charge my auto battery to 14.5VDC, normal doesn't. It their design and not a great charger either. Anyway, have a look and believe even shocked at the results in the cold where performance is so critical!!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aJXvvKk2SQ&t=2s
    Last edited by tripplec; 01-12-2018 at 08:14 AM.

  30. #120
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    Default Re: The new lithium-ion jumpstarters

    Hello Tripplec,

    Another interesting video...

    A question.

    If you hook up your 12.6 volt battery pack and it shows 4.5 volts will it be capable of starting a car?

    I was recently at a motel. The temperature overnight was -26 C or -15 F. I walked out to start my car and warm it up when someone approached me about getting a jump. I started my car and pulled out my jump pack that had been in the car all night. Hooked things up and started his 6 cylinder engine without problems. His car had been sitting for two days and had a weak battery. When he initially tried to start the car it turned over a few times and then quit with the starter solenoid clicking.

    I did notice the voltage while cranking was down to about 9.0 volts instead of the "usual" 10.5 volts indicating that the cold was effecting the jump pack battery. On top of that my jump pack was only at around 75% charged.

    I was impressed. The NOCO algorithm seems to apply pulses to the dead battery. This seems to allow the jump pack to provide more useful power without generating lots of heat. Although it extreme cold a little heat may actually help.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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