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Thread: Wicked ad pulled from website.

  1. #1

    Default Wicked ad pulled from website.

    I know this is a sensitive issue as I have read a few threads related to the topic of the legality of the type of lasers sold by Wicked and others. I was googling up some laser info and found this http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/n...ers-too-wicked on another forum that I though some of you might find interesting, and this, where the ad was brought into question: http://www.cruel.com/discuss/viewTopic.php/258560

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  2. #2
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    I wonder if canada has the same kind of regulation.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    This is getting old..all you seem to do is go around promoting this is every post.

    First of all, any lasers above 5mW would be illegal from any company to be used as a pointer, it doesn't matter what safety features they have or not. Why just keep posting about the same company over and over, unless you have some personal vendetta against them?

    Secondly those at Wicked are not advertised as laser pointers, and they specifically say not to be used as a pointer. They also say OEM use, but the not a pointer and not to be used as a pointer should be enough for people to get the message. This would be the case with any portable laser, those sold from Wicked, Atlasnova, Optiotronics, LAserglow, etc.

    Third when I had contacted CDRH they said there were no specific laws regarding the personal ownership of high powered lasers, only those used commercially or in public areas.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athoul
    This is getting old..all you seem to do is go around promoting this is every post.
    Who, me? I have nothing to say, nor have I had anything to say about lasers. I just found the stuff and thought it might be interesting. I spend my time over in the part of the site that has to do with illuminating things with very bright photon cannons, not carefully aligned tiny narrow little streams of dangerous illegal colorful FDA regulated photons designed to burn the retinas out of little babies and down enemy fighter pilots.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athoul
    This is getting old..all you seem to do is go around promoting this is every post.

    First of all, any lasers above 5mW would be illegal from any company to be used as a pointer, it doesn't matter what safety features they have or not. Why just keep posting about the same company over and over, unless you have some personal vendetta against them?

    Secondly those at Wicked are not advertised as laser pointers, and they specifically say not to be used as a pointer. They also say OEM use, but the not a pointer and not to be used as a pointer should be enough for people to get the message. This would be the case with any portable laser, those sold from Wicked, Atlasnova, Optiotronics, LAserglow, etc.

    Third when I had contacted CDRH they said there were no specific laws regarding the personal ownership of high powered lasers, only those used commercially or in public areas.
    Athoul, calling a laser a pointer or not a pointer or OEM should not even be brought up that is not the point it is merely an attempt by the manufacturer to obfuscate the issue for the average Joe and Jane. The point is any plug and play laser [without further modification by the end user or must be incorporated into a unit, one that only requires electrical energy to operate]that is sold commercially in the USA below 5mw output does not need any safety features what so ever, any plug and play laser over 5mw is required to have safety features among other requirements for it to meet FDA approval for commercial sale. Plug and play battery operated lasers over 5mw can be sold within the USA if they meet FDA requirements. Certain companies you mention do meet FDA requirements on some lasers above 5mw.
    Personal ownership also is not germaine.

    This debate is tiresome because persons like you post misleading information, you seem not entirely knowledgeable regarding these facts.
    This begs the question regarding the former post at WL by Nexus stating WL will cooperate to make their >5mw lasers compliant for retail sale in the USA.

    This is not my personal view on this topic I just like to get the facts out there
    for all to see.
    Don't take my word for it read the FDA documents.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    But Comozo, this whole legality/safety issue does ring a bit hollow when it's one specific company being singled out again and again, while others are actively supported. Why is it that Atlasnova's 'CPF Special' is promoted and recommended to new users time and time again, with everyone being ok about it, despite the fact that they're every bit as illegal as WL's lasers, if I'm not mistaken ? (Being 30-40mW and thus class IIIB, but still 'pointers' without FDA required safety features).

    I have no problem with people wanting to follow the rules and regulations, but shouldn't they apply to everyone ?

    In addition, with legality and FDA compliance being a major concern in this forum; shouldn't users then be discuraged from modding their legal class IIIA pointers into illegal class IIIB lasers ? In fact, since most of these will probably not recieve new stickers with the actual output after modding, you could argue that these are even more illegal - at least lasers manufactured to a specific output comes with the appropriate warning stickers. Yet, the safety and legality crusaders here apparantly have no problem with a large part of posts here being about how to do these modifications.

    I'm sorry to have to say this so bluntly, but this really seems like double standards to me.

    Regards,
    Erling

  7. #7

    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Ive been throught this debate so many times....and its starting to get boring. the FDA in all it's wisdom is still not perfect, and personally i think that lasers are over rated. how come, its perfectly legal for anyone to buy a nail gun which is just as dangerous (if not more so) as a laser, but it is against the law for anyone to buy a laser over 5mw without a special liscense?

    people who buys these high poweed lasers are usually quite mature as they are so expensive, i mean come on, a fifteen year old kids isnt going to be able to fork out three grand on a wicked laser.

    just my two cents

  8. #8

    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Quote Originally Posted by EGP
    But Comozo, this whole legality/safety issue does ring a bit hollow when it's one specific company being singled out again and again, while others are actively supported. Why is it that Atlasnova's 'CPF Special' is promoted and recommended to new users time and time again, with everyone being ok about it, despite the fact that they're every bit as illegal as WL's lasers, if I'm not mistaken ? (Being 30-40mW and thus class IIIB, but still 'pointers' without FDA required safety features).

    I have no problem with people wanting to follow the rules and regulations, but shouldn't they apply to everyone ? They do, but many people drive over the speed limit too.

    In addition, with legality and FDA compliance being a major concern in this forum; shouldn't users then be discuraged from modding their legal class IIIA pointers into illegal class IIIB lasers ? In fact, since most of these will probably not recieve new stickers with the actual output after modding, you could argue that these are even more illegal - at least lasers manufactured to a specific output comes with the appropriate warning stickers. Yet, the safety and legality crusaders here apparantly have no problem with a large part of posts here being about how to do these modifications.

    I'm sorry to have to say this so bluntly, but this really seems like double standards to me.
    WL has or did have a particular philosophy which was clearly put forth of their site, but has since been modifed it seems, towards laws that govern other countries which could be summed up as I don't care what your laws state, this is just for starters. All of the other companies keep a low profile that's why they are never trashed.

    Regards,
    Erling

    No federal agency over sees the construction of lasers made by the hobbyist or modified the short of it is you own the laser you can do anything with it. It can be equated with taking your car and customizing it.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    I am with Athoul.

    Anybody who uses a high-powered unit as a pointer in a darkened presentation room (even if it is shaped like a pointer) gotta be crazy man. The only thing you can point is probably buildings (eg construction) in broad daylight.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athoul
    First of all, any lasers above 5mW would be illegal from any company to be used as a pointer, it doesn't matter what safety features they have or not...

    Secondly those at Wicked are not advertised as laser pointers, and they specifically say not to be used as a pointer. They also say OEM use, but the not a pointer and not to be used as a pointer should be enough for people to get the message....
    So you admit that if Wicked advertised their lasers as pointers they'd be illegal? Please have a look at these quotes from WL's homepage:

    Wicked Lasers grants you the ability to shoot a red laser beam, green laser beam, or even blue laser beam from your laser pointer.
    Our 100mW red laser pointer will emit a laser beam that is visible in mid-air not just the laser beam dot.
    A 100mW green laser pointer will appear many times brighter than the 100mW red laser.
    There are many other uses for these laser pointers including Astronomy, Medical, Military & Law Enforcement and Physics Labs.
    Wicked Laserís green laser pointer and blue laser pointer uses Diode Pumped Solid State (DPSS) laser technology.
    In case you weren't counting, that's at least 6 times on the front page that WL touts their "laser pointers."

    Erling: I agree with your point that all should be held to the same standards. But the reason WL is so often singled out is because they lie so blatantly it's unlikely they believe their own crap. For instance, Athoul, WL's moderator who averages 15.5 posts per day over there, told 3 blatant lies in his post in this thread:

    1) WL's products are not advertised as pointers
    2) WL's products are OEM (really? Who can name a legit OEM aplication they've actually been used for by a consumer?)
    3) CDRH says owning a WL is legal. (really? Why all the import alerts, warning letters and why does WL need to send orders from china in 3 shipments, and declare them as $8 ballpoint pens?)

    Please Athoul, I'm begging you: enlighten us!

  11. #11
    Flashaholic nero_design's Avatar
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    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Woo hoo! I bet I could come back to this forum a year from now and still see Jellyfish414 posting the same anti-WL posts again and again... just like the last ones he posted here and even elsewhere online (no *cough* names). You really have it in for WL, don't you Jellyfish? Well....

    Though this may sound convenient, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt since under Australian Law (and WL is based in China, not in OZ and not in the US), a laser-pointer is defined by lawful description as "any hand held laser device that is powered via batteries and is thus portable and independant of a mains power supply regardless of output". Feel free to look it all up online via Google. That's how I found it last year.

    So, at least under Australian law, they're entirely accurate (and not lying, as you claim) by describing such lasers as pointers though I note that for all you US readers, a pointer (by FDA description) is <5mW or less. Anything over this output is usually defined as a "Device" or "Unit" or "Module" or "Diode" so as not to confuse with lower powered lasers in the 'pointer' classification.

    You wanted definition clarification, right? No? My Bad. But there it is in Black & White. I know that on the ENTRY page to their site, web surfers have to click on an "agreement/acknowledgement" button to say they have read the terms and conditions and that the lasers on the site are "not to be used as pointers". Perhaps you should write to them and explain how easily confused you are with all the jargon used. Possibly offer to re-word it for them...

    It's 3:40am here so I'm off to bed.

    Party On Laserholics!
    Last edited by nero_design; 05-21-2006 at 11:14 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Quote Originally Posted by comozo

    This debate is tiresome because persons like you post misleading information, you seem not entirely knowledgeable regarding these facts.
    This begs the question regarding the former post at WL by Nexus stating WL will cooperate to make their >5mw lasers compliant for retail sale in the USA.

    This is not my personal view on this topic I just like to get the facts out there
    for all to see.
    Don't take my word for it read the FDA documents.
    There is nothing misleading there at all and I'm extremely versed in laser laws having worked in the field for over 13 years. So I don't mean this in an insulting way at all(as I do not know your experience level with lasers), but I could possibly have more knowledge then you in this area. I feel no need to go into further detail because this topic has been discussed in great detail in other threads. I'd suggest calling up CDRH and FDA and asking them about laws applying to hobbiests who use lasers for their own personal and non commercial use. This is what I had done in the past and at the time there were no laws specifically applying to personal non-commercial ownership/use of lasers of "any" power level with or without safety features, unless used in public areas. If the laws have changed since then and you can post this I will certainly retract my position.

    As for OEM, I'm just posting what they claim it is. I do not consider them OEM though I guess they can be incorporated into a system. I agree they should take laser pointer out of their text, however they do say "not" to be used as a pointer and "not" a laser pointer.
    Last edited by Athoul; 05-21-2006 at 09:46 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Wicked ad pulled from website.

    Quote Originally Posted by EGP
    In addition, with legality and FDA compliance being a major concern in this forum; shouldn't users then be discuraged from modding their legal class IIIA pointers into illegal class IIIB lasers ? In fact, since most of these will probably not recieve new stickers with the actual output after modding, you could argue that these are even more illegal - at least lasers manufactured to a specific output comes with the appropriate warning stickers. Yet, the safety and legality crusaders here apparantly have no problem with a large part of posts here being about how to do these modifications.

    I'm sorry to have to say this so bluntly, but this really seems like double standards to me.

    EGP, a double standard would mean that we (CPF in this case) would take a stand and actually have a position in all this. Well, we don't. We simply try to comply with existing laws and protect the "innocent" from idiots, which includes obviously the outside use of high powered lasers and the promotion of such stupid and forbidden activity.
    We are no legal experts and do not claim to be, and we act upon the words in the sticky thread placed at the top of this forum. You might want to read it to understand our position.

    Unfortunately things seem to get out of hand lately, and I tend to think that this forum won't continue in this manner for much longer.



    Quote Originally Posted by jellyfish414
    For instance, Athoul, WL's moderator who averages 15.5 posts per day over there, told 3 blatant lies in his post in this thread ... snip

    Calling another member a lier is a no-no on CPF. Attack the post and not the poster.


    I am getting tired of all this, to be honest. The laser forum is infested with intrigue and manufacturer-wars and threads that are just beating a dead horse from the beginning, always resulting in a trainwreck.
    If this place can't be integrated into the CPF community in a useful and pleasant way it will have to be shut down.

    Closed.

    bernhard
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