Olympia Products
Page 17 of 25 FirstFirst ... 7101112131415161718192021222324 ... LastLast
Results 481 to 510 of 744

Thread: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

  1. #481
    Flashaholic bullinchinashop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    north west Indiana
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

    Quote Originally Posted by chevrofreak
    I wouldnt be so quick to blame the batteries for this. I've now seen atleast 3 blown Pelican M6's.

    I've owned 3 M6's over the years, and I'm curious as to whether or not the ultra stiff spring on the lamp module of the M6 is damaging the batteries in some way, causing a catastrophic failure. Perhaps it's the crappy switch somehow causing it. Perhaps it's a combination of those things.

    I was terribly disappointed by my M6's for build quality and design and vowed never to buy another. Now I have one more reason to add to my list.
    HEY I just remembered I had a M6 incan stolen out of my van when it was getting repaired a few couple of years ago. I know it's evil but it'd be funny if that thing exploded like that when it was sitting on his dresser of something.
    (Not that I want the guy to be hurt or anything I just want a big bang to scare the #!@$ out of him)

  2. #482

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by Presidio
    I had the same thing happen to my pm6 (minus the blood) but with new surefire batteries, and after repeated unanswered emails to pelican I said the hell with them and I'll never purchase anything made by pelican again.
    Do you have the time to describe in more detail? Or was it essentially the same as LM? I would summarise LM's experience as:

    (1) Unsure of the state of batteries (presumed to be matching, but not tested)
    (2) Placed in an OLD STYLE PM6 (focussing head, no lamp assembly)
    (3) Not held in the hand - i.e. left on a surface while running

    How similar was your experience?

    Thanks in advance.

    PS: Thanks for info on LM, Kevin. I guess he hasn't posted here for a while because he's gone off the whole flashlight thing! Temporarily, of course.

  3. #483
    Flashaholic* NoFair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,556

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by bullinchinashop
    O H M Y G O D....
    I've got about 15 of the Battery Station 123's sitting in a drawer right now. The reason this freaks me out is this : About a month ago I had these batteries in a sealed plastic container. I opened the container to take out a couple and there was a V E R Y strong metallic/acidic smell coming from the batteries! I left the top of after that and the smell is still there but much fainter. I'm VERY tempted to throw these batteries in the garbage after reading that. What if both of those batteries had exploded at once while that light was still in his hand ?!
    This is normal with all lithiums and the smell has been describe jokingly on these forums as flashohol or something similar....

  4. #484

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    The included card says the LEDs won't "run" if there's less than 1%, so if they run but don't light up the 10% (on the MBT-1), then the reading is somewhere between 1 and 10%.
    Quote Originally Posted by brightnorm
    As best I remember it didn't run the LEDS, but even if it did it ended up with all LEDs dark.
    The shadows are darkest during the day.

  5. #485
    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Washington State
    Posts
    5,044

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    You new guys to the thread need to read the whole thing.

    Pelican has responded to this incident, (don't know why they didn't to the one above) and they have a good reputation for backing their products, so please give them some slack while this is worked out.

    Bill
    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
    Benjamin Franklin

  6. #486

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Holy shit. I just realized that this is probably my old M6. I sold it to StoneDog last year sometime. It was the old style with focusing head and all.

    Damn. I'm sorry this happened to you, LM, and I'm glad you're recovering.

  7. #487

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Rereading the thread, I'm certain this is my old M6. I feel somehow responsible for what has happened, as it was originally my light! I definitely wouldn't have sold it if I knew this could happen.

    LunarModule and StoneDog, please PM me and let me know if there's anything I can do to assist or to make things right.

    Here's what I can tell you about the history of the light:

    I bought it NIB and put one, maybe two full sets of batteries through it. It spent the majority of its time with me in a drawer, was completely stock, with no modifications made by me.

    Stock original lamp assembly, nothing weird happened to the light when I had it. It was my first high performance incan and didn't get used as much as a G2 I ended up buying later, because I didn't want to scratch it up.

  8. #488

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    There have been quite a few posts that have expressed concern, to put it mildly, about BatteryStation batteries.

    If one reads through all the posts in this thread (and admittedly this is becoming rather difficult!) then I don't see how it is possible to come to the conclusion that there is an issue with BatteryStation batteries.

    Or rather, specifically BatteryStation batteries. There is clearly an issue with CR123 lithium batteries, in that when things do go wrong, it gets very nasty.

    I believe we need to focus on what factors can cause these batteries to go wrong.

    If we are talking about the odd manufacturing defect, then unfortunately, it is a case of #%!@ happens, and there is very little we can do about it. The odd manufacturing defect will always occur.

    However, I believe we are on to something more here. We may not be, but we certainly aren't going to get anywhere unless we assume we are.

    Topper's one and only attempt at replicating the problem, succeeded. As it happens, the only variable which we know was different in Toppers experiment, were the brand of batteries. They were not BatteryStation. The important factors that were the same, were the make, model and vintage of the flashlight, and the fact that the flashlight was not held in the hand, thereby allowing things to get hotter than normal. The thing that may or may not have been the same, was the fact that Topper deliberately used mis-matched cells. Enough is known about mis-matched cells to suspect that was a factor in LunarModules case, but we can't be sure.

    I also believe that the chances of Topper stumbling upon a rare, faulty battery, for his experiment, are very slim indeed. That is what makes me think we could be on to something more than a random defect.

    The areas of interest, for me, are:

    (1) The OLD STYLE PM6 (possible factors: spring so strong that it crushes batteries; excessive heating of one or more batteries... insert theory here...)
    (2) Mismatched Batteries
    (3) The extra heat build-up caused by not holding a flashlight

    I have suggested that Kevin experiments with heating, and he is going to be performing what sounds like a fairly comprehensive set of tests on Saturday. Hopefully after Saturday, we will all have a good feeling for whether the factor of heat is irrelevent, relevent, or important. Whatever the outcome, it will give us valuable data which will help guide further ideas.

    But we need to focus on ideas, rather than jumping to poorly-founded conclusions about brands.

    Even in the case of the old-style PM6, I wouldn't point the finger at it (we know plenty of other brands and models that have exploded). I would, however, suggest that it is wise to use it as a case study, certainly after Topper's experiment.

  9. #489
    *Flashaholic* flashlight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Republic of Singapore
    Posts
    3,557

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

    Quote Originally Posted by AW
    LM : Wish you well. Sorry to hear these kind of rare accident happening to one of us here.


    mdocod : Comparing voltage is not a foolproof way to match cells as shown from your test. Even batteries from the same batch will have different internal resistance due to production tolerance or various reasons. With different internal resistances, they will perform differently even when under the same discharge conditions. I match my cells by comparing voltage and internal resistance. They'll have to be within a certain range before I 'll use them in pairs/series. Cells match this way will behave with more consistency and more predictable.






    AW, that looks like a useful tool to have. What kind of range for matching internal resistance is acceptable?
    "For those who know, no explanation is needed. And for those whom do not, none is possible." They can take your money away, but they can't take your education. If a man's not worth his word then what's he worth?

  10. #490

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by OutdoorIdiot
    Do you have the time to describe in more detail? Or was it essentially the same as LM? I would summarise LM's experience as:

    (1) Unsure of the state of batteries (presumed to be matching, but not tested)
    (2) Placed in an OLD STYLE PM6 (focussing head, no lamp assembly)
    (3) Not held in the hand - i.e. left on a surface while running

    How similar was your experience?

    Thanks in advance.
    This was the older style m6, and was a brand new box of 12 surefire batteries that I had for about 14 months. I was on vacation and had left the light in my boat on the trailer at a hotel it was parked right outside the room and while we were going in the room I heard a loud bang after a WTF was that, I searched through the boat and found the light, still hot, lens in pieces, crud all in the top and bottom of the tube and could not remove the batteries, luckily it was in a small toolbox so no damage to anything or anyone but the light.

    This all happened about two years ago.
    Last edited by Presidio; 06-16-2006 at 10:17 PM.

  11. #491
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    822

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by Presidio
    This was the older style m6, and was a brand new box of 12 surefire batteries that I had for about 14 months. I was on vacation and had left the light in my boat on the trailer at a hotel it was parked right outside the room and while we were going in the room I heard a loud bang after a WTF was that, I searched through the boat and found the light, still hot, lens in pieces, crud all in the top and bottom of the tube and could not remove the batteries, luckily it was in a small toolbox so no damage to anything or anyone but the light.

    This all happened about two years ago.
    Looks like that is 3 X M6 2 of them with SF batts...

  12. #492
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox
    Hello Lunarmodule,

    The most likely cause is that one battery was drained more than the other one. As things warm up, the fuller charged cell tries to reverse charge the under charged cell and things heat up fast. Hydrogen gas is vented and when ignited, blows up. Once one cell is burning, it doesn't take much to ignite the other cell.

    Tom

    Tom-

    LunarModule said his light was actually operating when this happened, it was on when it went boom.

    If it had been a reverse charge scenario, the light would have been rather dim, as the bulb in the PM6 would have been down to a dull red/orange glow.

    So it seems rather safe to assume it was NOT a reverse charge scenario.


    To all the flashlight makers, that have not heard some of my recommendations before, imho, it would be wise to start incorporating safety vents in their flashlights. Especially sealed flashlights. One guy nearly lost his eye due to a SureFire 9P.

    It would be interesting to look in these cells and see if the cell's safety vent actually punctured at the typical 40 psi.

    From what I see here, it appears the venting happened so rapidly, that at least one of them just vented right round the whole button top assembly. (I don't see charred exit paths comming out the vent holes.

    Even so, a cell's vent could still burst (to produce a controlled release), but the pressure would build up in a sealed flashlight anyhow...until the flashlight physically explodes, unless the flashlight incorporated safety vents.

    LunarModule, I hope things are well on their way to being fully healed now, and you are doing good.


    Lithium cell chemistries are something that should be respected by all.

    Definitely not something to dork around with...


    One of the several other threads, where folks have had their Lithium cell flashlights explode:
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78843

    SureFire has also had Lithium cells explode in their flashlights, this one was a 9P, and the guy nearly lost his eye (and it is most definitely not the only one):
    http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/ind...owtopic=132932

    There have been plenty of other lithium cell based lights that have exploded...


    Also, a thought to consider, since the light was shipped with cells, was the light shipped with the cells installed in the light? A stiff spring, plus vibration in transit, might cause a decent amount of case deformation that could possibly contribute to an internal failure mode.

    For cell anatomy, for those not familiar, please see this thread:
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/show....php?p=1389277
    Last edited by NewBie; 06-17-2006 at 01:30 AM.

  13. #493
    Flashaholic* Lunal_Tic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    The Wilds of Tokyo
    Posts
    2,876

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

    Can someone please give a definitive answer to this question. Do lithium CR123s vent hydrogen gas?

    I have seen both yes and no answers so which is it? I was under the impression that CR123s don't have any hydrogen in them and that it was Alkalines that usually out gas hydrogen but with so many contradictory statements . . .

    TIA,
    -LT
    lunal tic (n)
    a distinctive behavioral trait or quirk directly related to or caused by light [15th cent. Latin lunaris. Ultimately from an IE word meaning “light,”] and [Early 19th cent. Italian ticchio.] see also: moon quirk

  14. #494
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    822

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

    I forgot that RY3's experience was also with a M6. Maybe this older model is less tolerant of mismatched cells than other lights?

    4 M6s, 1 BS batteries, 2 SF batteries, and I *think* RY3's experience was with mismatched cells, one was SF the other DP? that was awhile ago...

  15. #495
    *Flashaholic* Icebreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    by the river
    Posts
    5,001

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    Tom-
    If it had been a reverse charge scenario, the light would have been rather dim, as the bulb in the PM6 would have been down to a dull red/orange glow.
    Hello, Jar.

    I don't know enough about all the dynamics involved in that scenario i.e. what 's happening with the V and A levels to the cell that is reverse charging the other so I can't speak directly to the concept. I did confirm that a single cell can drive the PM6 lamp well enough that is doesn't go orange. To the eye it's still similar in color to a properly driven lamp just half the output or density of the beam.

    - Jeff
    The oldtimers are forever bound to the universe of flashlights. They reside just above the torch lit stratosphere where the good photons pass by. As these oldtimers locomote on their appointed ways, occasionally an unusual glimmer from below catches their attention.

    They may give a nod or a word.

  16. #496
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, underwear change required)

    Quote Originally Posted by Icebreak
    Hello, Jar.

    I don't know enough about all the dynamics involved in that scenario i.e. what 's happening with the V and A levels to the cell that is reverse charging the other so I can't speak directly to the concept. I did confirm that a single cell can drive the PM6 lamp well enough that is doesn't go orange. To the eye it's still similar in color to a properly driven lamp just half the output or density of the beam.

    - Jeff

    With my light meter, I get +2,000 lux at a given distance and two good cells, and with just one cell I get 186 lux.

    But there is more to what I said, than I said. Just to check, I took a cell that reads 2.608V that I have, and put it in with a fresh cell. I get NO light out of my PM6. And it isn't reverse charged. Even after leaving it in the PM6 for a bit, and then measuring it, it still has 2.564V on it. Before the cell can be reverse charged, it's internal resistance goes way up, greatly reducing the current flow, to the point of no light output. It may be possible to create an alternate scenario through a set of conditions, but this is what I just checked.

    I just tested three more used cells with voltages from 2.6V to 2.8V (flash amp tested between 30mA to 100mA- so yes, drained) and none of them will even light the lamp in the PM6, even with a fresh cell present.

    Given enough time, maybe you could reverse charge these cells, if you also left the light on, while it had no light out the front of the flashlight.

    P.S. My PM6 is an older one with the adjustable focus beam.
    Last edited by NewBie; 06-17-2006 at 01:56 AM.

  17. #497
    *Flashaholic* Icebreak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    by the river
    Posts
    5,001

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Completely different behavior than 1 real cell + 1 dummy cell. I see. Thanks.
    The oldtimers are forever bound to the universe of flashlights. They reside just above the torch lit stratosphere where the good photons pass by. As these oldtimers locomote on their appointed ways, occasionally an unusual glimmer from below catches their attention.

    They may give a nod or a word.

  18. #498
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunarmodule


    I'm still reeling with shock as I type this, bandages in place. They say there's a first time for everything, and my first lithium battery explosion happened moments ago to a flashlight in my hand while operating.
    From this thread:
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...5&page=2&pp=40

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    IMHO, there are quite a few rather ignorant folks who like to pretend to be experts. If you really don't know what you are talking about, you shouldn't say something is safe when it truely is not. I'm not an expert either, but I do have the skills to read...

    Duracell 123A nasties:
    Thermal degradation may produce hazardous fumes
    of manganese and lithium;
    hydrofluoric acid;
    oxides of carbon and sulfur
    and other toxic by-products.

    Notes to Physician
    1) Potential leakage of dimethoxyethane, propylene carbonate and lithium trifluoromethane sulfonate.
    http://www.duracell.com/oem/safety/pdf/2003_9.pdf

    (Hydrofluoric Acid is definitely not something one should even think about messing around with.)

    (Alot of these byproducts are just as nasty as what comes out of a Li-Ion rechargable cell.)



    Energizer's take on things:
    Under normal conditions of use, the battery is hermetically sealed.

    Ingestion: Swallowing a battery can be harmful.
    Contents of an open battery can cause serious chemical burns of mouth, esophagus, and gastrointestinal tract.
    If battery or open battery is ingested, do not induce vomiting or give food or drink. Seek medical attention immediately.
    CALL NATIONAL BATTERY INGESTION HOTLINE for advice and follow-up (202-625-3333) collect, day or night.

    Inhalation: Contents of an open battery can cause respiratory irritation. Provide fresh air and seek medical attention.

    Skin Absorption: Dimethoxyethane, dioxolane, and lithium trifluoromethanesulfonate may be absorbed through the skin, causing
    localized inflammation.

    Skin Contact: Contents of an open battery can cause skin irritation and/or chemical burns. Remove contaminated clothing and
    wash skin with soap and water. If a chemical burn occurs or if irritation persists, seek medical attention.

    Eye Contact: Contents of an open battery can cause severe irritation and chemical burns. Immediately flush eyes thoroughly with
    water for at least 15 minutes, lifting upper and lower lids, until no evidence of the chemical remains. Seek medical attention.

    Note: Carbon black is listed as a possible carcinogen by International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC).

    http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithi...oxide_psds.pdf


    Please don't pretend to be an expert when you are not, and pass supposedly "informed" opinions.

    (P.S.- I'm not an expert on batteries either, but I can read...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunarmodule
    Good guess. In the exploding Pelican M6 thread, the prime suspect for the detonating cell(s) were indeed Surefire 123s, with the distinctive red wrapper. Another CPF thread reported rupturing primary Cr123s in a Surefire M6 while stored in a vehicle in extreme cold. Brand? Surefire. In each thread were several mentions of other Surefire batteries involved in little disasters. Kind puts a new twist on the company's play on words name. Surefire: you can be sure of one thing, this babys gonna FIRE* (*=we didnt say one kind or another)

    Its kind of irritating to hear reports of folks regarding their lithium batteries as "little bombs" and nonsense like that. Automobiles are killing machines like no other, with incomprehesibly terrible murderous potential cleverly concealed with mile after trouble free mile of normal driving. If everybody contemplated nothing BUT how head on collisions are supposed to be like at 75mph, how many folks could still keep their wits about them in a parking lot at those parking lot speeds? Simple: folks would scare themselves into NOT driving? Why risk it? Life's too precious. It certainly is. To waste time cowering in fear over flashlight batteries, it is indeed. Now, for the schmoe with his 15 Amp Magmod 3D with magnets between his CPB1650 cells, be afraid, be very afraid. Your express ticket to Short CIrcuit CIty is waiting for you, sir. But especially single cell applications, 123s of ANY manufacture. I worry much more about being spontaneously mawled by escaped Persian Tigers from the local zoo.

    I distinctly remember someone wisecracking about my portable hand grenade, referring to my home grown rechargeable LiIon battery pack I made for my Surefire M6. I used unprotected cells in a pack configuration, and it was likened by one to be akin to said grenade. Be sure to update your progress if you still have both hands in a few weeks..... I shake my head and remember that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    You know, it is *quite* ignorant for folks to be discounting the dangers of Lithium cells...in the extreme.

    We see examples quite often, of them causing things to project, that could easily put out a child's eye, or get hot and disfigure/leave scares. That Lithium 123 cell M6 flashlight tailcap launched so hard, that it nearly went through a solid oak cabinet door!

    The thread is found here, make sure to follow the thread to the end, you will see additional pictures later in the thread:
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78843

    Here is another example of these Primary Lithium 123 cells (Battery Station) misbehaving, luckily this one didn't fail so badly:
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=91245

    And it is not always when you abuse the cells, occassionally they just blow up.

    We are constantly getting new members, and it is important for them to understand the dangers and risks.

    It is really stupid to the extreme, to think there are no dangers. We have seen multiple examples of 123 cells causing dangerous failures right here on cpf, and we are a very small cross-section of only ~20,000 users.

    Once one is aware of the dangers of Lithium batteries, and how to treat them properly, not to mix brands, or *NOT* putting in a fresh 123 for one of the two that was dead- to save money, *NOT* running them down until the filament doesn't glow at all, *NOT* letting them bake in the sun in a flat black finish flashlight on a dashboard, *NOT* trying to recharge them, *NOT* trying to recharge them, *NOT* using cells that have a dent, and many other situations, then a person can make a *WISE* informed choice, and also be aware of the dangers and how to treat Lithium cells accordingly.

    I am very surprised that the majority flashlight manufacturers have not added circuitry to shut down a 123 cell flashlight when the cells drop below a given voltage. This would help eliminate one of the possible failure modes that can lead to venting, venting with flame, expulsion of internals, projectile launching of internals, or explosion. A safety venting mechanism in sealed flashlights might also be very useful in these situations, allowing a Lithium 123 cell flashlight to contain some of the failure modes, resulting in less danger/risk to the end user.

    To give you just one example of the many safety bulletin/recalls dealing with 123 cells:

    Name of product: Fuji Power and A&T Fuji Power

    CR123A 3-volt lithium batteries originally provided with Galls® H.A.L.O. Tactical Flashlight.
    Hazard: The batteries originally provided with the flashlight may overheat or explode presenting a potential for fire or personal injury.

    Incidents/Injuries: Five reports of batteries overheating or exploding have been received, causing minor injuries such as burns and minor
    property damage from fire.
    http://list.uvm.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=in...ety&D=1&P=9889

    And there are *PLENTY* of these type of safety/recall notices out there.

    Just knowing that 123 Primary Lithium cells are in fact a risk, and understanding how to treat them properly to minimize that risk is very important.

    Remember folks, lithium cells really can be truely dangerous, and they really need to be treated with respect.

    This guy nearly lost his eye from his SureFire 9P exploding:
    http://forums.groundspeak.com/GC/ind...owtopic=132932
    Last edited by NewBie; 06-17-2006 at 10:23 AM.

  19. #499
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    503

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Thanks NewBie


  20. #500
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    288

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lunarmodule
    Its kind of irritating to hear reports of folks regarding their lithium batteries as "little bombs" and nonsense like that. Automobiles are killing machines like no other, with incomprehesibly terrible murderous potential cleverly concealed with mile after trouble free mile of normal driving. If everybody contemplated nothing BUT how head on collisions are supposed to be like at 75mph, how many folks could still keep their wits about them in a parking lot at those parking lot speeds?
    This comparison is flawed because in a modern world, you can't (practically) get around in many places without some sort of motorized transportation. The difference is that one can operate a flashlight, and many other electronic devices, with batteries that are less dangerous to use than lithium ions.

    With all the non-battery saavy people in the world, would you give your wife and kids alkalines, or li-ions to use in their devices? When even experienced, battery conscious users can become injured by li-ions, would you trust people who's collective idea of properly maintaining and handling batteries involves keeping loose spares in a drawer, and nonchalantly tossing flat-drained cells into the garbage?
    Last edited by amanichen; 06-17-2006 at 10:57 AM.


  21. #501
    *Flashaholic* PlayboyJoeShmoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Shepherd, TX (where dat?)
    Posts
    11,043

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)


  22. #502
    Administrator Size15's's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Kettering, England
    Posts
    18,408

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    We need to keep this thread focused so that it remains useful.

  23. #503

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    Remember folks, lithium cells really can be truely dangerous, and they really need to be treated with respect.
    Thanks for that post and your many other posts about lithium cell safety. I really appreciate these posts.

    One suggestion: There's so much information around now that it would be nice to have it all in one place. I'm wondering whether someone would be prepared to write a post outlining in simple, non-technical language which precautions users should take, both with primaries and with rechargeables. There are so many people reading this forum, quite a few of them new to lithium cells, that such a post might save people from serious injury. I know there's a sticky on the topic of rechargeables, but even in that thread the really important information is spread over a number of posts.

    Hans

  24. #504
    Flashaholic* milkyspit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    4,905

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Bill PM'd me to mention the links in the below were broken... I just updated them so they should work... if not, someone please let me know via PM!

    First, the MC2 thread itself... post #30 is the one with all the battery discussion...

    Milkyspit's MC2 Thread (Also Milky Tester) [first page of the thread]

    Milkyspit's MC2 Thread (Also Milky Tester) [post #30 specifically]

    That post references two other threads...

    My 123 Test! Tekcell vs. Surefire

    Then there's one other thread which might offer some supplemental info, although it doesn't necessarily address explosion risk...

    What IS that smell from 123 cells?

    Hope this helps!

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    WOW,

    milkyspit was all over this a long time ago!! I found this particularly enlightening in reference to the current thread:

    "Anyway, I ALWAYS measure flash amps of the partially used cells that I pull from my lights, then use a Sharpie permanent black magic marker to mark the reading directly on the side of the cell. I store them all upright in a Tupperware container with no lid (so it's more like a tray), with non-conductive spacers (foam, paper, plastic...) filling the empty space so there's no possibility of the cells falling over and perhaps shorting against one another. I keep the cells organized in order of their flash amps readings. Then, when I want to feed the MC2, I select a pair of cells with the same flash amps readings... plus I RETEST the cells just before popping them into the light, because sometimes the readings will have changed while the cells sit in storage. I believe strongly in this, and it's applicable to new cells and other 123 cell lights: NEVER PUT CELLS HAVING SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FLASH AMPS READINGS INTO THE SAME LIGHT!"

    I will see if Scott still has those posts, (he seems to keep everything he ever wrote backed up!) and I can maybe post them in a new thread about cells in the battery section.

    Bill
    --Scott

  25. #505
    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Central Washington State
    Posts
    5,044

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Hans, I think that your request is what everyone here is trying to get to.

    As yet, though, we're not there, because we REALLY still don't know the cause of these explosions. We do know that the VAST majority, (literally millions) of cells have no problems, then BANG!!!

    Whoops, Milkyspit posted while I was posting and beat me to it!


    Bill
    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
    Benjamin Franklin

  26. #506
    Flashaholic* milkyspit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    4,905

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod
    As I understand it- flash amps may actually be a BETTER representation of cell capacity than amps into a reasonable load.. 2 cells of significantly different life remaining- could generate very similar current accross a reasonable load and be difficult to distinguish- whereas into a dead short- a parcially depleted cell is more likally to show a comparable and significant variation in results...

    In the experimentations I have done with lithium primary cells, sets of cells that all deliver a solid 10-12 flash amps, will generally result in LONG runtimes with even discharge in my lights.. I have also found many "new" cells that will only deliver a reading of around 2-4 flashamps... if I use one of those cells in conjunction with "good" cells in a light- that cell dies quickly, leaving me with many parcially drained cells, and one fully drained cell.. When I use sets of those poor performing cells (the ones that deliver less than ideal flash amps) together in a light- they tend to discharge somewhat equally- but the flashlight does not last as long as it would have with "good" cells...

    my "gut" tells me that "flash amps" produce a result that has greater resolution than a test with a normal load... The proof of this concept is the ZTS tester... while it may give some indication that something about a particular cell may be "different" it is very obvious from the testing I have read that the numbers it generates for capacity should be taken with a grain of salt... Kevin was just saying a little while ago that a battery that tested low, and a bettery that tested 100%, both run through a single cell light, generated a runtimes that were nearly equal to the minut.. The ZTS tester- aparantly uses "normal" loads to determin it's results... I think there is too much acceptable variation in "full" lithium cells into normal loads to determin capacity....

    I think it would be very interesting to compare what the ZTS tester says- to flashamp comparisons..
    I'll second what mdocod says here... and note that he explained it far better than I've tried to, even though over the years I've tried... and tried... and tried! Thanks mdocod.

    Incidentally, measuring flash amps on a 123 cell is very similar to measuring internal resistance of the cell... this because a 123 cell's voltage stays in a fairly narrow range during its service life... typically 3-3.2V brand new, and 2.4-2.6V when totally spent... and since Ohm's Law says V=IR, and flash amps (I in this case) change dramatically during the 123 cell's life, from as high as 12.00A all the way to 0.00A, you're pretty much approximating R, which would be the internal cell resistance.

    BTW, use your DMM's highest range (10A? 20A?) when testing flash amps, and hold the probes on the cell ONLY until the current starts dropping... this should happen within one second or so. The highest value you saw is the flash amps reading... I find the fractional portion isn't all that significant, so "8.36" would get binned from a flash amps perspective as "8." A good DMM also helps... there are probably many that will work... for what it's worth, I do my flash amps using a Fluke 77-III that I'd picked up off ebay a few years ago.
    --Scott

  27. #507
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    COLORado spRINGs
    Posts
    7,350

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    I think it would be really nice to see a battery tester designed for lithiums- that basically did a very fast flashamp style test.. it wouldn't neccessarily even have to last for 2 seconds (to get a high reading) but rather see how fast the current ramps up in the first fraction of a second to generate a result...

    the problem with such a device- would be that the quality of the connection to the battery, could have a significant impact on results- if the contact points developped just a slight amount of corrosion it could generate bogus results.... Would need to be cleaned and/or pro-golded frequently to maintain proper results.

  28. #508

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Many of the posts on this thread and especially the most recent ones seem to be along the theory that these mishaps were caused solely by mismatched cells and that good testing of flash amps and matching of cells can prevent this problem. I do not discount the possibility that mismatched cells were the cause, possibly even the sole cause, of these mishaps but I do not think we should overlook the possibility that these mishaps are moisture related. As most of you know lithium erupts into flame when dropped into water. Perhaps the strong spring on the Pellican light is flexing the can of the cells and causing a crack which is allowing moisture, possibly only in the form of humid air to enter the cell. Heat also "seems" to be a issue in these mishaps but those people who are only testing using heating and intentionally mismatched cells may want to broaden their testing to include some moisture introduced into the cells. This could be dangerous and should be conducted carefully. Good luck and be careful there.
    jc

  29. #509
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Oregon- United States of America
    Posts
    4,946

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Humm...

    Moisture. Possible that it could get around the cap crimp, but if you have disassembled as many of these 123 cells as I have, it would be quite hard to damage the very robust crimp.

    Extremely low amounts of water molecules might be able to *very* slowly permeate through the plastic insulator that is between the button and the can, over a long period of time, but it would seem very unlikely to get enough through to cause an issue.

    However...

    There is a thin membrane, that is maybe 0.003" thick, that is between the vent exit holes and the internal cell area. It is designed to rupture due to pressure, typically around 40 PSI, though the pressure may be different for primary cells. If this were to rupture, or get damaged, there would be a clear open path for moisture ingress. I haven't looked at that vent seal membrane in detail, but it seems to be nothing more than plastic coated aluminum, the plastic feels like a polyfloromer, like one of the typical UHMW plastics.

    Possibly, if the cells were to be transported by air (altitude), the membrane on some cells might possibly rupture. This would allow moisture in, but the reaction might be slow enough, especially with the plates in the electrolyte, that one doesn't see much of anything happen normally.

    When heat is introduced, reactions speed up, as well as several other factors which happen....

    Anyhow, this is pretty far out on a limb, but something for the folks concerned to consider...


    Lunarmodule, when this PM6 was shipped to you with cells, was it declared as lithium cells and went via ground (to Hawaii this can take a *very* long time), or was it undeclared and went via Air (priority/2nd day/next day- or even 1st class can go by air these days...)?


    From my 123 thread, here are some of the internals:
    Duracell:


    SureFire/Energizer:

    Last edited by NewBie; 06-17-2006 at 11:25 PM.

  30. #510
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    713

    Default Re: ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

    Good point...... we should ask LM ...... I've been to Hawaii many times.... it can be very humid.

    frisco



    Quote Originally Posted by jclarksnakes
    Many of the posts on this thread and especially the most recent ones seem to be along the theory that these mishaps were caused solely by mismatched cells and that good testing of flash amps and matching of cells can prevent this problem. I do not discount the possibility that mismatched cells were the cause, possibly even the sole cause, of these mishaps but I do not think we should overlook the possibility that these mishaps are moisture related. As most of you know lithium erupts into flame when dropped into water. Perhaps the strong spring on the Pellican light is flexing the can of the cells and causing a crack which is allowing moisture, possibly only in the form of humid air to enter the cell. Heat also "seems" to be a issue in these mishaps but those people who are only testing using heating and intentionally mismatched cells may want to broaden their testing to include some moisture introduced into the cells. This could be dangerous and should be conducted carefully. Good luck and be careful there.
    jc

Page 17 of 25 FirstFirst ... 7101112131415161718192021222324 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •