ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

[NewBie]

Please folks, do NOT EVER try any of the stuff I am showing you, I've seen some of these cells violently throw flames and hot molten material like a rocket engine. I have some special 1/2" thick plexiglass that I do all this stuff behind, forced ventilation in an open area, and thick welders gloves, and I still wear a full face chemical shield and sealed goggles, and a few other safety precautions.

Well, decided to take some more pictures for folks of the button top and it's construction on the SureFire/Energizer and Duracell batteries:








I also ran another test, with a Duracell 123 that I cut open, and dropped in some water, at times it made more bubbles than you see in the picture, but that is about all that happened. It may be due to the limited rate at which the liquid water can actually enter into the tightly wrapped cell, which would be much different than a moisture filled cell that heats up...



Please folks, do NOT EVER try any of the stuff I am showing you, I've seen some of these cells violently throw flames and hot molten material like a rocket engine. I have some special 1/2" thick plexiglass that I do all this stuff behind, forced ventilation in an open area, and thick welders gloves, and I still wear a full face chemical shield and sealed goggles, and a few other safety precautions.

[Geologist]

Again,

Coincidence - I shipped a package to LM with 8 new BS CR2 batteries las year. The package also arrived with the batteries leaking.

ALSO - I still think the Pelican is contributing to the issue - seems also too coincidental that we are not seeing reports for other multi cell lights - I mean I know the exist but only ones I've seen is the 9P link in this thread and before a reference to someone with one of the Xenon Asian Cheapie lights that apparently went nova on an airflight (owned by stewardess? bought in HK? long time ago...). I am not calling the M6 an exploding light - I am just saying that maybe there is a design element in the older models that with used/mismatched cells, there is a higher rate of catostrophic failure.

Topper - when you did your "test" did you just take mismatched cells, turn it on and leave it? I might be willing to try a similar test with a SF G2 if I could get a metal box to contain any potential problems...

[leukos]

Newbie, there might be something to your theory about primary CR123a's puncturing their safety membrane while being transported by plane.

[Icebreak]

Thanks again and again, Jar, for your continued educational contributions to this board. It's one thing to read and imagine but to see the elements being discussed up close is a great help.

[g36pilot]

FWIW: Li battery precautions for beginners. It was interesting to see the previously mentioned cautions in a single list.



Primary Lithium Battery FAQ


1. What is "short circuit"? May I short circuit Lithium battery?

If the positive and negative terminals come into contact with each other or with a metal object, this can cause a short circuit, generating heat. If the batteries are stacked on top of each other or Mixed, the resulting short circuit can lead to heat generation, leakage, bursting and, eventually fire.

Do not short circuit Lithium batteries.

2. May I apply heat on Lithium batteries or dispose of in fire?

If heated to 100°C or more, plastic materials in the battery such as the gasket and separator may be damaged, causing leakage. The heat generated by a short circuit inside the batteries may lead to bursting or combustion. If disposed of in fire, batteries may burn violently.

3. May I solder Lithium batteries directly?

If solder is applied directly to the battery, resin materials in the Lithium batteries such as the gasket and separator may be damaged due to overheating. This can cause leakage, and heat generated by a short circuit inside the battery may lead to bursting or fire. Even if no abnormality takes place immediately after soldering, the resulting leakage and other damage may harm the components attached to the battery over a long period of usages

4. May I charge Primary Lithium batteries?

When a Primary Lithium battery is charged, gas is generated inside the battery and can result in swelling, heat generation, leakage bursting and fire.

5. May I force discharge Lithium batteries?

When batteries are force-discharged with an external power source, the voltage drops to under O V (reverse electrode), and inner gas is generated. This can lead to swelling, heating, leakage, bursting or fire.

6. May I disassemble, apply excessive pressure on Lithium batteries?

If a battery is disassembled by force, gas may be generated which may cause throat irritation, or the Lithium metal may generate heat, causing fire. If deformed under pressure or under impact, distortion of the seal may lead to leakage, or a short circuit inside the battery may lead to swelling, heat generation, bursting or fire.

7. Can I use Lithium batteries mixing with other battery types?

If different types of batteries are used together, or new batteries are used with old ones, the difference in characteristics of voltage, capacity, etc., may cause over-discharge of the battery which is exhausted first, leading to swelling, bursting or fire.

8. Can Lithium battery be contacted with water?

No. This may cause corrosion or the formation of combustible gas.

9. Where Lithium batteries should be stored?

Lithium batteries should be stored in a place not exposed to direct sunlight. Make sure the area is dry and has minimal temperature variation. Storage in areas subject to high temperatures, humidity or rain may cause deterioration in battery quality and durability. To avoid short circuiting batteries during storage, be sure that the positive and negative terminals do not come in to contact with each other.





http://www.able-battery.com/Lithium_batteriy_FAQ.htm

[g36pilot]

Newbie, there might be something to your theory about primary CR123a's puncturing their safety membrane while being transported by plane.

This may be a contributing factor, but shouldn't be the primary cause as the new UN testing uses a pressure test.

>>
New Testing and Transportation Requirements
The new UN regulatory scheme includes many of the same provisions first developed in the VATCP. It also requires that all lithium and lithium ion cells and batteries manufactured after January 1, 2003 pass the following UN Tests prior to being transported:
Test 1: Altitude Simulation - This test simulates air transport under low-pressure conditions......
http://www.batterypoweronline.com/ju...egulations.htm

[OutdoorIdiot]

This was the older style m6, and was a brand new box of 12 surefire batteries that I had for about 14 months. I was on vacation and had left the light in my boat on the trailer at a hotel it was parked right outside the room and while we were going in the room I heard a loud bang after a WTF was that, I searched through the boat and found the light, still hot, lens in pieces, crud all in the top and bottom of the tube and could not remove the batteries, luckily it was in a small toolbox so no damage to anything or anyone but the light.

This all happened about two years ago.

Thank you.

If I may quote Columbo (I don't have the dirty mac and I can't do the eyes, unfortunately), "Just one more thing...":

To your knowledge, was the light turned on when you left it? If not, had it been on just before you left it, and if so, had it been in your hand, and for how long had it been turned on?

I'm not expecting you can be sure about something that happened so long ago, but the information, if you can remember it, could be very useful in helping people spot patterns.

Thanks in advance.

[Topper]

"Topper - when you did your "test" did you just take mismatched cells, turn it on and leave it? I might be willing to try a similar test with a SF G2 if I could get a metal box to contain any potential problems..."

Well sort of. I took it outside placed it on the driveway..Bezel pointed North
and I was 10/12 feet East of it most of time inside with the door closed (French doors with glass panes so I could still watch) I figured if it "popped" parts would fly North and South so I was not worried. Now I did get closer to check to see how hot it was getting but only long enough to get a reading.
I know I got a 122 degree reading as the hottest then it started to drop off.
I feel fairly confident if I had been holding the light I would have shut it down before it got that hot and nothing would have happened. But that is just a guess.
Topper

[Topper]

I would like to point out that it is my understanding that Kevin has been using G2,s as one of the lights in his tests so I do not think any of us need to risk one. I also have roughly 150+ 123's on hand so I am not looking to buy any right now but when I do I will buy Battery Station cells from Kevin with out a doubt.
Topper

[NewBie]

This may be a contributing factor, but shouldn't be the primary cause as the new UN testing uses a pressure test.

>>
New Testing and Transportation Requirements
The new UN regulatory scheme includes many of the same provisions first developed in the VATCP. It also requires that all lithium and lithium ion cells and batteries manufactured after January 1, 2003 pass the following UN Tests prior to being transported:
Test 1: Altitude Simulation - This test simulates air transport under low-pressure conditions......
http://www.batterypoweronline.com/ju...egulations.htm

As I understand it, passing the tests has various levels, each has a criteria for passing.

38.3.4.1 Test 1: Altitude simulation

38.3.4.1.1 Purpose
This test simulates air transport under low-pressure conditions.

38.3.4.1.2 Test procedure
Test cells and batteries shall be stored at a pressure of 11.6 kPa or less for at least six hours at ambient temperature (20 ± 5 °C).

38.3.4.1.3 Requirement
Cells and batteries meet this requirement if there is no mass loss, no leakage, no venting, no disassembly, no rupture and no fire and if the open circuit voltage of each test cell or battery after testing is not less than 90% of its voltage immediately prior to this procedure. The requirement relating to voltage is not applicable to test cells and batteries at fully discharged states.

Take the mass loss criteria:
ST/SG/AC.10/27/Add.2
page 4
where M1 is the mass before the test and M2 is the mass after the test. When mass loss does not exceed the values in table 1, it shall be considered as "no mass loss".

-my note: from the table below shown below there, a lithium battery may loose anywhere between 0.5% of it's mass to 0.1% of it's mass during testing, depending on it's size. Thus one could puncture the barrier, and as long as nothing happened during that test, that exceeds each required limit, the battery would pass.


The document for those interested:
http://www.unece.org/trans/doc/2000/...AC10-27a2e.pdf

The testing does not consider multiple conditions at once, or what happens over a long period of time (weeks/months). They are just concerned about what happens at the time of transport. There are a few, that look at what happens over seven days, like the charge test.


Now from the regulations themselves:
188 Lithium cells and batteries offered for transport are not subject to other provisions of these Regulations if they meet the following:

(a) For a lithium metal or lithium alloy cell, the lithium content is not more than 1 g, and for a lithium-ion cell, the lithium-equivalent content is not more than 1.5 g;

(b) For a lithium metal or lithium alloy battery the aggregate lithium content is not more than 2 g, and for a lithium-ion battery, the aggregate lithium-equivalent content is not more than 8 g;

(c) Each cell or battery is of the type proved to meet the requirements of each test in the Manual of Tests and Criteria, Part III, sub-section 38.3;

so on and excetra....

Notice how there are specific provisions if the cells cannot meet the above criteria, and how the pallet or shipping container must be then marked and treated for transport. As I see it, I'm seeing more and more lithium cells labeled as Dangerous, since they do not meet the UN criteria...

Reference:
http://www.unece.org/trans/danger/pu.../03E_Part3.pdf


So, the implied idea that all Lithium cells meet the UN testing criteria, isn't so. It is just if they don't meet them, then you see the special Danger markings, and handling requirements, such that they fall under the Dangerous Goods transport requirements.

If they can meet all the tests and requirements, then they don't need to be treated as Dangerous Goods for transport purposes.


Someone earlier said the LAX incident that generated all the hub-bub on battery transport was due to alkaline cells. Not so:

"Lithium Battery Incident at Los Angeles International Airport

While RSPA was preparing its June 21, 2001 rule, an incident
occurred at the Los Angeles International Airport involving a
shipment of two pallets of small, consumer-size primary lithium
batteries that raised serious concerns at RSPA and the National
Transportation Safety Board regarding the exception then applicable
to lithium and lithium ion batteries. The pallets, containing 120,000
primary lithium batteries, caught fire and burned after being
mishandled and damaged by cargo handling personnel. At the time,
these batteries were excepted from regulation under the HMR and
ICAO Technical Instructions"


As for UL testing, if you look carefully, there are various levels for each test criteria. From memory, if I don't have them mixed up, a battery that passes to class 4 is allowed to vent, and flame, and it is considered to pass UL tesing class 4. It was something like Class 1, that showed no vent/smoke/flame/rupture/etc.

Often, the devil is in the details.


As far as some of the dangers of Lithium cells, here is another good presentation:
http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/lithexpl.pdf


Lithium Cells could be used in aircraft equipment though. Cells that meet the FAA requirements will each be marked on the body accordingly. These special cells fall under TSO-C179, and I'm not sure if this TSO has been officially approved or not.
http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/draft_do...chTSO-C179.pdf


One should note specifically, some of the special provisions of things like shipping these cells, such as is found on the Energizer 123 cell datasheet:

Shipping: For complete details, please reference:

Global: Special Provision A45 of the International Air Transport Association Dangerous Goods Regulations

United States: 49 CFR 173.185

g36pilot Please notice the Dangerous Goods provision, which would mean that they were not able to meet the criteria for not being classified as dangerous goods....and fall under special provision A45...

[NewBie]

I did find the testing results for the Duracell 123 cells.
http://www.duracell.com/oem/primary/...p#underwriters

As I recall, a bit more now, there were several classes under each category that went something like this (but remember this a old memory):


-No changes observed
-Smoke/Venting
-No fires or explosions
-Fire/Explosion

[PlayboyJoeShmoe]

[NewBie]

Okay, my memory was a little faulty, but I finally found it now.

They were not called classes, but it was levels under the UL 1642 testing.

The categories I had listed from an old UL 1642 test were:

-Overcharge
-Forced Discharge
-External Short
-Impact
-Crush
-Nail Penetration
-Hot Oven

The criteria for each level were:
Level 0- No Change
Level 1- Leak
Level 2- Smoke less than 200 degrees Celcius (392 F)
Level 3- Smoke more than 200 degrees Celcius (392 F)
Level 4- Fire
Level 5- Explosion

One really needs to know what levels a battery passed for each criteria during the UL 1642 testing.

As I see, the battery under test at the time had to pass the UL 1642 Level 3 criteria to pass the manufacturers requirements (where the requirement level was set by the manufacturer), which meant that it could vent hot smoke, leak acids and fluids, poisonous gases, but was not allow to catch fire or explode. This meant that it "passed" UL 1642.

Unfortunately, most folks do not know about details like this, nor do the battery makers tell you about them.

Example, go look up the SureFire batteries, and show me where they say they meet UL 1642, and then tell me to what level they passed each category...


There was also a case of the Maxfire LX where the batteries exploded open, I found it here:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:V...&ct=clnk&cd=25

And back in 2003 or 2004, there was the story a cpf'er told about the SureFire flashlights that got pulled out of one of the Nuclear power plants in the US, due to it failing, while sitting in a wall locker or something. Can anyone find that link?

[Icebreak]

Newbie -

"Often, the devil is in the details." Gotta remember that.

Side note: The LAX flashlight episode was Labor Day weekend in 2003. It was on the same day they shut down because they couldn't find a guy that had breached security.

“...a plastic flashlight exploded as the contents of a passenger’s check luggage were being examined by a Transportation Security Authority (TSA) employee at the Tom Bradley International Terminal. Two TSA employees were slightly injured and several other people complained of ringing ears from the sound of the explosion. The Tokyo-bound passenger cooperated with authorities and was not arrested. Officials believe the flashlight’s batteries had released a gas in the sealed plastic container which led to the small explosion.”

BatteryDigestLink

[NewBie]

Another way of handling things is to forego the use of Lithium cells, except when you really need them. Some companies are now starting understand the risks/dangers.

(A comment by Wayne Johnson, owner and President of Elektro Lumens)

"There have been some explosions of flashlights, a serious fire in a warehouse, of flashlights with Lithium CR123 batteries. I was told by a person ordering from me, that one of their security guards had one explode on his person and was injured. Another security officer took his flashlight home, and his children were playing with it. When They were done playing with it, they set it down on the table, and shortly thereafter, it exploded. Lithium batteries can be very dangerous and can cause a serious explosion. This is one of the reasons I'm glad I decided to forego using them, preferring to use the AA size battery instead. I'm getting a lot of security companies buying them in quantity from me, as some of them are not allowed to use Lithium batteries any longer."
http://elektrolumens.com/XM-3/XM-3.html

Anyhow..

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

Research and Special Programs Administration

[Docket No. RSPA-00-7283; Notice No. 00-10]

Advisory Notice; Transportation of Lithium Batteries

AGENCY: Research and Special Programs Administration (RSPA), DOT.

ACTION: Advisory notice.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT:
John Gale or Eric Nelson, Office of
Hazardous Materials Standards, RSPA
Department of Transportation
400 Seventh Street, SW.
Washington, DC 20590-0001
Telephone (202) 366-8553.

"We recommend that offerors and transporters take precautions in the transportation of lithium batteries that are presently excepted from regulation as a hazardous material under 49 CFR 173.185 of the HMR (49 CFR parts 171-180) and Special Provision A45 of the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) Technical Instructions for the Transport of Dangerous Goods by Air (Technical Instructions). On April 28, 1999, at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX), a shipment of two pallets of primary lithium batteries caught fire and burned after being off-loaded from a Northwest Airlines flight from Osaka, Japan. While the pallets were being handled by cargo handling personnel, the packages were damaged. This is believed to have initiated the subsequent fire. The fire was initially fought by Northwest employees with portable fire extinguishers and a fire hose. Each time the fire appeared to be
extinguished, it flared up again."

The public document is found here, and has lots of great info in it:
http://hazmat.dot.gov/regs/notices/sa/not2000_10.htm

[brightnorm]

Most (all?) reported incidents involved lithium primaries in flashlights. Were there any consumer (rather than commercial) incidents when the batteries were in a pack or box with no chance of any + or - touching any other + or -? If not, then it would appear that the storage of these batteries in Surefire boxes, Battery Station packs or any other similar manner would be quite safe, as long as the remaining batteries were compacted after others were removed from the pack. I stuff tissues in Surefire boxes and do the same with BS packs, or repack them in empty Surefire boxes.

Brightnorm

[batterystation]

We were rained out here Saturday. We got two of four tests done today and will attempt the other two after work some day this week.

Test #1 was a pair of Energizers in a Pelican M6 incan. Not old style but still got hot. One cell was started "dead". It read about 2V and would not light anything I have. This cell was placed in the front position.
In this test the light was placed bezel down on hot blacktop and left on.
Nothing happened.

Test #2 was also a pair of Energizers but one was not only dead but preheated to 130 degrees F. Same test. This one leaked a drop but did not explode. We thought we heard it hissing. Still not sure.

We were going to do some radical stuff, but after talking to Lunar the other night, we decided to try and keep the tests more realistic. The next two test will involve mixing of cells and states of charge. They will also involve a G2 rather than a Pelican. We did a similar test earlier in the week with a G2 on the fly with just a dead battery and a good battery (BS) and got the same result. Two very dead batteries.

We shall continue trying. We are also sending a few of each flashlight to the factory to be sacraficed in the name of battery safety. We will keep at it. All of our batteries will continue to be tested with the ZTS tester prior to shipping as we do believe this could enable us to catch a potential problem cell. We are not sure but believe so.

[Icebreak]

Kevin -

Trying to test against all types of suspicious criteria would be labor intensive and BatteryStation's willingness to do so is commendable.

I'm thinking that testing against most likely criteria might be a surer path to discovery. So far we see that mixed batteries in an old PM6 have exploded, and BS batteries in an old PM6 have exploded. We don't know what batteries were used in Topper's replication.

I think a good test group would be to use 40% BS CR123s and 100% BS CR123s in an old PM6. Turn it on and leave it unattended. Introduce no other variables. Another good test would be the same except using SureFire CR123s.

I can send you an old PM6 for these tests. Just post or PM and I'll get it out to you this week.

[NewBie]

Thanks for keeping us informed Kevin.

[Geologist]

Kevin -

I'm thinking that testing against most likely criteria might be a surer path to discovery. So far we see that mixed batteries in an old PM6 have exploded, and BS batteries in an old PM6 have exploded. We don't know what batteries were used in Topper's replication.

I thought Topper said he was using SF cells?

[OutdoorIdiot]

I think a good test group would be to use 40% BS CR123s and 100% BS CR123s in an old PM6. Turn it on and leave it unattended. Introduce no other variables. Another good test would be the same except using SureFire CR123s.

I can send you an old PM6 for these tests.

Great. It has been a bit frustrating (for me, I don't know about anyone else?) that Kevin hasn't had access to an old-style PM6, as this, more and more (since Presidio's input), seems like a recurring theme.

It is also very interesting that no-one, to my knowledge, has done what Topper did, and NOT had a failure.

My one comment would be to capture as much data as possible during the test, just in case it is a one-off (i.e. the old PM6 explodes and no further testing can be done!). I believe Kevin said he has a device for monitoring surface temperature, for example. Also, before the test that Icebreak describes, I would be very interested to see what happens with "100%", matching batteries. For example, to what extent does an overheating, or mechanical crushing issue exist?

Just some thoughts. Thanks for this suggestion and offer, Icebreak, and thanks for the feedback Kevin.

[Icebreak]

I thought Topper said he was using SF cells?

Thanks, Geologist. I had forgotten that.

[NewBie]

Great. It has been a bit frustrating (for me, I don't know about anyone else?) that Kevin hasn't had access to an old-style PM6, as this, more and more (since Presidio's input), seems like a recurring theme.

It is also very interesting that no-one, to my knowledge, has done what Topper did, and NOT had a failure.

I'll be trying my old PM6 with the focusable beam, doing what Topper did, hopefully tonight.

I'll also be video taping it.

[OutdoorIdiot]

I'll be trying my old PM6 with the focusable beam, doing what Topper did, hopefully tonight.

I'll also be video taping it.

I'm not overly keen on these emoticon things (terribly un-English don't-you-know), but I must say:

[batterystation]

The week of the accident, we tried numerous mixes of our batteries in a PM6 but it was not the old style. After all of these, I decided to try different batteries. I would be happy to pay for or trade a new one for an old one to do the suggested experiment. We are also video taping and have the Sony Camera handy as well. After a very long chat with Lunar the other night, we both agree that somehow the pressure or temperature had something to do with this issue. Is it possible for a battery to sweat internally as condensations would appear on a battery coming out of a freezer?

Every year we sell tons of D lithiums to people in the arctic dog races and yet I have never heard of an incident there. Good Lord, what would a D cell do if something went wrong? I am shipping some lights to the factory for more testing as well. All of this reminds me of the kid in science class that set a chunk of sodium on the desk. It took a while but ignited and burned through the desk, the floor, concrete, etc. Scared me to death.

This whole thing has me wondering why I ever got into such a line of business as batteries some 20 years ago. Flashlights are supposed to produce light, not shrapnel and toxic fumes. What will power the next generation of flashlights? A pocket nuke?

[metalhed]

Two thoughts, one helpful (I hope) and the other probably not.

1) Can someone do some comparitive testing of the spring strengths of various lights, including the Pelicans? I would like to see some firm numbers on the difference in spring tension between the Pelicans and other lights...this should be an obtainable data point...with no destructive testing necessary.


2) Regarding the pre-testing of individual Lithium cells, I was under the impression that using any battery for any length of time initiates the age-related breakdown of the cell's ability to provide power. If we test these lithiums (even briefly), are we starting the clock on their lifespans and reducing their stated shelf-life?

An important advantage to lithium cells is their long storage life...are we defeating it by pre-testing them?

[greenLED]

All of this reminds me of the kid in science class that set a chunk of sodium on the desk. It took a while but ignited and burned through the desk, the floor, concrete, etc.

I've heard that story enough times that I'm ready to bet a million bucks it's an urban legend. One of those "beware" type of legends. For starters, the kid wouldn't've had time to put it on the desk before the sodium ignited, etc.... slight highjack, sorry, but related to the current situation because I see Kevin doing a lot of things to make sure this doesn't happen with his batts.

[batterystation]

I've heard that story enough times that I'm ready to bet a million bucks it's an urban legend. One of those "beware" type of legends. For starters, the kid wouldn't've had time to put it on the desk before the sodium ignited, etc.... slight highjack, sorry, but related to the current situation because I see Kevin doing a lot of things to make sure this doesn't happen with his batts.

I was there when we put a small piece in a beaker and watched it burn bright green like an arc welder. I was not there when the piece was taken out of the kerosene and ignited on the desk, but did see the hold in the desk and floor. It did happen and it did scare me to death. It produced the type of damage that I have seen lithium batteries do. No hijack. Just similarities.

[greenLED]

In my case we did the burn test in chemistry lab way back when (under controlled conditions, of course). That's when I heard about the piece blowing up on an unsuspecting kid who didn't follow the safety rules.

In a sense, I'm glad you can verify seeing the burn marks, etc... that one's busted, then!

[Knight Lights]

Just for corroboration, I was a Chem Asst. in high school. We were the guys in the prep room cutting up the little slices of Sodium for the classroom experiments.

One of the guys put a dime sized chunk in a pyrex 2 liter Ehrlenmeyer (sp?) and it REALLY sputtered, then as the triangular shape filled with Hydrogen and the Hydrogen gas got full to the surface of the water, all of it ignited at once, blowing out the two ceiling tiles above it and causing a serious KABAAM!

We had 3 teachers in the prep room so fast that one of the guys swore they had to have flown from their classrooms!

Interestingly, the Ehrlenmeyer flask did not rupture, and apart from the two ceiling tiles, nothing was damaged but the ego of the kid who put it in the bottle. He was a child genius 13-14 year old (the rest of us were 17-18) who REALLY didn't know quite as much at that point as he thought he did, at least not about the relationship of Hydrogen gas to the size of the explosion. He surely could have done the math, but the real world experience was humbling!

Bill