Electrolyte types ACID or BASE? Immediate care.

VidPro

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So run off to the emergency room while an acid or base is eating away at your skin, and stand there for 2.5 hours filling out insurance paperwork, and waiting in line for them to take care of that auto accident victom, while the acid continues to do its job :)

wouldnt it be just a bit better to Identify the substance and immediataly nutralise it?

What battery is it, is the damaging substance a acid or a base, is the substance oil based, solvent based, or water based, or what will it wash off with , as oiley acids cant be nutralised without a detergant of sorts.

If you Know what your dealing with , nutralising and removing it from your skin, would be simple with various kitchen components. if you dont know what your dealing with, how are some of these dorkey doctors going to know?

SOO, how about a List of the possible exposures, and items that would nutralise and reduce the damage on exposure.
i have been exposed to many internal products of batteries, without issue, and one time when i didnt KNOW i had the dead skin of my fingers completly eaten off.
one time i blew LYE water out all over my face and into my eyes, a few minutes of sheer pannic later, not a mark on me.

We all got and probably deal with the one that we probably know the most about. the Car Lead acid battery.
Nutralise with Bicarbinate of soda, and if you aint got that, baking soda has some in it. because Soda is a common kitchen component, and it also can work to extinguish a small fire, having it isnt a problem.

so
Car Battery splash = Hose yourself down quickly, smear soda water mix on yourself, rince rince . solution. in eyes flush flush flush with water.


The time i got eaten up by car battery acid, i was topping off hundreds of batteries water in transportation, and the tips of my fingers fell apart, before i realised how much exposure to the acid over days i was getting.
When kids we blew up a car battery and reacted immediatally with soda, after the initial pannic of finding a nutralising agent and using it, there was no problem. and a bunch of other exposures, that were 0 problem because we knew what the substance was.

If you know how to react to exposure to things, THEN going to the doc while your skin falls off, might be less of a problem.
So list the items of possible exposure, and the immediate solution.
a list , a simple list would also indicate how to clean up a item that you want to try and recover, like when a alkaline messes up your products.
 
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FoxyRick

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Hi,

As a chemist (Head of Science) I can say:

NEVER, EVER TRY TO NEUTRALISE A CHEMICAL ON YOUR SKIN

JUST WASH IT OFF WITH LOTS OF COLD....

Hmm, lithium cells are a glitch in this. But if it's a base or acid with no metallic lithium present, just use water. If it's lithium, use vegetable or mineral oil. Likewise for any other alkali metal.

Seriously, neutralising acids and bases can liberate a lot of heat (they are always exothermic reactions) and exacerbate the injury. Ever added water to concentrated sulphuric acid? I have, to prove to students that it causes flash boiling, spitting boiling acid everywhere.

I've seen HF (hydrogen fluoride (gas) or hydrofluoric acid (in water)) mentioned a few times here. Not sure if it really comes into cell chemistry, but if you are ever unlucky enough to come into contact with that, prepare to lose parts of your body. It gets through your flesh quicker than you can wash it off. You need injections of calcium gluconate to stop it reaching bone and reacting out the calcium. Nasty! It doesn't even burn at first, it's a weak acid and doesn't do much damage to the soft tissue it passes through. Calcium gluconate is (should be) kept as a countermeasure wherever HF is in use.

Play safe...

Rick.
 

VidPro

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well your the chemist :)
never had a problem with nutralising but the RINCE is always first.

See , now if we combine the chemisry with what the substance is in the FORM of, i think you could accomplish a list.

lithium in lithium ion cells is kinda still in a wrap of sorts, its not like getting an entire blob of lithium on you at all. i think the electrolyte is a bigger issue.
but that is what would be important to determine fast reaction prevention.

if you know what your going up against , in the form that it spatters in.
every occurance other than the LYE i have had its small droplets, and in dry batteries is a wrap of combined crud.
 
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HarryN

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Vidpro - The chemist above is right, but for the curious, I am (reasonably ) sure that virtually all cell chemistry is acidic except alkaline cells.

For skin, just remember, "Dilution is the solution".

Nonetheless, baking soda is useful on all most all electrolytes found in cells if it is on the ground or something like that.

If you are exposed to a Li enhanced cell such as a 123 event, go to a TRAUMA WARD / BURN UNIT, not a "medical center", and insist on Calcium treatments for HF exposure.
 

VidPro

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There probably is a difference between having a tank of it splatter on you from a industrial accident, verses having touched a battery wrap :)

because we can assume there is some DEGREE of exposure, and that would effect a different need of treatments.

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic804.htm
 
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FoxyRick

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Yes, rinsing first will help prevent too much heat, but to be honest, if you've rinsed enough to make neutralising safe, or the contaminant is that weak anyway, then you might as well just rinse it off as it's not that much of a problem. Just don't leave it on to see what happens - even weakish acids, and particularly alkalis, will sneak up and surprise you.

Plain soap and water is a good finish (after rinsing) for acid splashes - the soap is mildly alkali. Toothpast is alkali also, to neutralise the (weak) plaque acid.

Neutralising an alkali can be done with vinegar (obvious), soda water or your choice of cola.

As to metallic potassium, just shout and wave your hand about until it stops sizzling its way in and flies off - that's what I did. Now that one stings! Then, put the fires out that the fragments have started. Not with water!

Cheers,
Rick.
 
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VidPro

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so what exact chemistries is hydrofloric in? lithium primary or lithium ion?
and is it oil based or solvent based?
 

VidPro

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A nimhy battery exploded, i grab the wrap and toss in into the sink, what did i just get on my hands , fingers?
 

VidPro

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For skin, just remember, "Dilution is the solution".

and loads of stuff diluting it is the immediate solution, but the skin also can hold or entrap things into it, a high concentration of lye for example was very slimey, and it did not just dilute away so magically as one would think.
at the time the vinagar was much more refreshing than the lye :)
but then that is why the thread question.

and ya know the skin has oil on it too. what happens when a dryer acid gets in the oils? or like PCBs from a exploding PG&E transformer, i head that stuff is kinda oil based.
 
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FoxyRick

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VidPro said:

Yes, that's the stuff. But the author is very wrong on one point:

"Hydrofluoric (HF) acid, one of the strongest inorganic acids"

No, it's a weak acid. HCl, HNO3 and H2SO4 are all much stronger. Bet then, he is an MD, not a chemist. The medical info is sound.

Pure HF gas is a different matter, off the pH scale. HF (gas) mixed with sulphur trioxide and antimony pentafluoride gives an acid so strong it's about -15 equivalent pH!!!
 

VidPro

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are there any oil based or oily solvent based things in any of these common battery chemistires?
if its some evil stuff in an oil or a solvent that dries out and leave an oiley base, rincing with just water is going to be ineffective.
CAN acids get into skin oils?

does the oil ever have to be removed to remove the burning stuff?
of course with soap on an acid that would cover it as discussed.

so take the alkaline batt, can its acid solvent into oils? it is in some sort of goop, is that goop oiley?
(i mean its bases of course)
 
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VidPro

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go to a TRAUMA WARD / BURN UNIT, not a "medical center", and insist on Calcium treatments for HF exposure.

ok, so lets take this for another example, your out backpacking in the sierras, about 3 hours from any trama ward or burn unit, ya cant just stand there and rot :)
if you have some knowlege of what to do, it might be more usefull than the helicopter trip 4 hours later.

or again, simple exposure, which is what a lot of it will be, not a vat of it.
your cell phone just shorted out and splaters your ear, with what?
 
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VidPro

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"Ever added water to concentrated sulphuric acid? I have, to prove to students that it causes flash boiling, spitting boiling acid everywhere."

well yes i have seen some nutcase put some pure form of some acid in the palm of his hand to prove that it needed water , or some stupid thing.
so the concentration of the acid is important, we have known items that we are constantlly dealing with, in known packages, in known mixes with other items. which might bring up its charged or discharged state also.

so what are the concentrations? we kinda know that in a wet cell the water is there already. (some web page says 60% water in car batts)

because the items of fear are known what the component dangers are , we can either discuss how it is in a pitri dish, or we can cover the battery itself instead.
in other words we can know what the fear of lithium is, and what the fear of HF is, but what actually we have combined in what package is what were supposed to be all worried about.
if were going to get all worried about the battery, its just best to know how to deal with the battery itself, not the seperate components that are not seperate..

kinda like not worrying about potasium nitrate , and aluminum dust, but how you deal with it once its combined. :)
 
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VidPro

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When a battery with HF in it explodes, how much HF goes into the air? what items are burned? and when say the lithium coated wrap burns, what happens to the HF? is there any chemical conversion of HF when the heat hits the components?

because a li-poly type battery goes to fire, what is the components then?
when a ni-mhy blows up it seems to be just from expanding gasses (and improper vents) not much has changed due to fire, because the fire seems to be from the short that occurs after, not the battery items burning up.

all that kinda stuff might be important.
 

WhiteHot

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Wow VidPro. Lots of unanswered questions. I would like to know the answer to many of them as well.
 

FoxyRick

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Car battery acid is about 1/3 sulphuric acid. Still strong enough to need washing off rapidly, but I've had it on my hands for a while without noticable effect. Depends how tough your skin is, I suppose.

I wouldn't trust the 'put a drop on your skin' because it needs water - your skin has enough water in it.

I can't see much use for oils in cells, not saying they can't have oil, but I doubt it. Gels are the problem. Sticks just like napalm, and if it's alkali, it will be rapidly penetrating the oily surface of your skin and digging in. Lots of hot (not scalding!) water (very rapid flow is best to blast off the gel) and scrubbing with something, followed possibly by a dry absorbant like fuller's earth, then rinse well. Note that water is generally the solvent of choice. It's unlikely that a normal person would have just the right organic solvent around, even if it was applicable.

As to the chemical effects of acids/alkalis on skin:

Acids
Acids react with flesh causing a coagulation necrosis. This slows the progress of the acid into the flesh and so limits the penetration of the burn, although the surface and shallow-medium burns it causes can be*very* nasty. Scarring is usually permanent and large burns are disfiguring. Some acids are also very strong oxidisers (phosphoric, nitric) and this has auxilliary effects, but these are unlikely to be seen here.

Alkalis
First, an alkali is a water-soluble base. Alkalis react with fats and oils in flesh, making basic soap. That's why a little dilute caustic soda feels soapy. This aids the penetration of the alkali into the flesh, resulting in much deeper and more dangerous tissue damage than from acid. Especially at risk are mucal membranes and the eyes - significant eye contamination will almost certainly lead to permanent eye damage, maybe blindness.


Take a look here for some example burns and bits of information:

http://www.burnsurgery.com/Modules/initial_mgmt/sec_6.htm

Note that the burns develop over time; what initially might not seem too serious (I've washed it off, I'll be OK, no need for medical help) can develop into a disfiguring burn a day later. It's like a heat burn - you need to run it under water for at least 20 minutes, not just 2 or 3. In fact, it's worse than that. Electrical burns are fun too, they cause hidden burn channels in the flesh - I've had a few of those as well.


Lastly, I would be interested in exactly which cells use fluorine compounds???

Rick.
 
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A lot of needless scares here.

Short of getting them in the eyes, battery fluids aren't that bad. Spilling a pan of boiling water on yourself is far more dangerous, because THAT will inflict an immediate burn to a large area of your body.

Car battery acid is dilute sulfuric acid. Wash adequately. Rub baking soda into affected area. Wash more.

Alkaline, NiMH and NiCd use KOH and the properties are similar to a liquid drain cleaner. The slimey feeling goes away pretty quick if you splash some vinegar on affected area as you wash.

Really nothing to worry about unless you get it all over your body and not shower until six hours later. If you just get a few drops on your body, simple washing will do.
 

FoxyRick

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Handlobraesing said:
A lot of needless scares here.

Yes, I agree in the context of cells. The concentrations and quantities likely to be encountered are low risk to normal skin if washed off in good time. Not including metallic lithium or HF (if it is encountered???).

I just get a bit twitchy when I hear the 'neutralise it' bit. Taken out of this context and into a more serious one (toilet unblocker/conc. NaOH, conc. sulphuric used for brick washing etc) and there would be problems. Frankly, if it's safe to neutralise, it only needs a good wash anyway.

I did once manage to get some fluid from a leaky Duracell alkaline AA (my wife mistakenly put it in a charger!) in my mouth (don't ask). My tongue immediately had a sharp, stinging sensation. I rinsed it very quickly (a few seconds) but the stinging continued for about 12 hours. Like a wasp sting level of pain.

So, don't lick the leaky cells folks!

It would still be an interesting excercise to list the chemicals used in various cells and their discharge reactants.

Rick.
 

kromeke

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Let's make it clear:

HF acid is not present in any consumer battery chemistry. HF acid is a byproduct of LiMnO2 thermal decomposition (and maybe Li-Ion thermal decomposition, I'm not sure). It is not present in the battery.
 

HarryN

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My understanding is that HF or a similar material which behaves closely enough to HF (such as an organo fluoro compound) is released when a CR 123 primary Li cell fails.

In the event that this happens, and you are on a backpacking trip in the middle of nowhere not close to medical aid, what should one do - that is the question.

The challenge with HF is that regardless of its ionization constant, it rapidly penetrates the flesh and attacks metal containing material in your body. Examples, Bone, blood, muscle. Since it ionizes slowly, the damage takes a while to show up, unlike our trusty friend, Mr. H2SO4 which makes its presence known right away.

Not being a physician, but having some experience with HF exposure, I checked with www.webmd.com, typed in "HF exposure" and it linked me to

http://www.calgonate.com/ who make a treatment of Calcium Gluconate which is widely used by technicians who might have HF exposure. I called the number, and they sell the 25 gram tubes in a minimum 3 tube set for $ 27 / tube plus shipping.

In large qty, they price is $ 22 / tube plus free shipping.

AFAIK, this is the same treatment which would be offered in a well equipped burn unit, with the possible additional treatment with an injected version.

Looks like a possible group buy idea.
 
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