Project-M by Milkyspit: Long-Running High Output LED: Availability, Info, Photos

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Knight Lights

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img-m180-kl2-swo2-m180-mag2c-lensflare.jpg


In light of the recent acclaim of the M180-KL2 here:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=125872

img-m180-kl2-head-reflectors-trans.gif


Knight Lights, in collaboration with milkyspit, is proud to announce the M-Line!

The M-Line will consist of multiple LED models placed primarily in MagLites and MagLite compatible heads and will initially be presented with the M180, a triple luxeon light producing 180 lumens and running in a 2C with 2 18650 sized cells for more than 4 hours!

The line will also include an M240 version, and additional versions up to and including an M420 version are being considered. Milkyspit is also investigating family members (at last mention) as high as an M680.

This is the first long running, high output light available in large quantities that I am aware of.

Additional specifications for each light will be posted shortly, including run times, sizes, battery combinations and prices.

A sales thread will be shortly posted as well.

Bill
 
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Knight Lights

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Project-M Runtime Chart

img-m-runtimes.gif


img-pf6-milky-house-with-logo.jpg



M180-KL2 Runtimes by Leef

Fellow CPFer Leef took the time to chart runtime of his M180-KL2 head and the better of his two SureFire L6 flashlights. Both flashlights were running 3x123 fresh SureFire 123 cells. The charts show overall output of both lights and seem to approximate actual lumen output of the lights (divide his readings by ten). Note: according to Leef, the SureFire L6 in the test is an unusually good one.

Overall Output vs. Runtime, M180-KL2 with Various Battery Options (Linear Scale)
img-m180-kl2-leef-runtime-vs-lbu-complete-v2-linear.jpg


Overall Output vs. Runtime, M180-KL2 vs. SF-L6 (Linear Scale)
img-m180-kl2-leef-runtime-vs-lbu-complete-w-l6-linear.jpg


Overall Output vs. Runtime, M180-KL2 vs. SF-L6 (Logarithmic Scale)
The logarithmic scale approximates the brightness differences that the human eye actually sees.
img-m180-kl2-leef-runtime-vs-lbu-complete-w-l6-log.jpg


Leef states that at the 240 minute mark, both test subjects were still generating useful amounts of light.
 
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Knight Lights

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Photos: M180 in Mag 2C Host

Incorporates Kiu Stainless Steel Bezel (normally not included)
img-m180-ice-flare.jpg


Incorporates Kiu Stainless Steel Bezel (normally not included)
img-m180-ice-flare-closeup.jpg


Compliments of MSaxatilus
img-m180-mag2c-msax-1.jpg


Compliments of MSaxatilus
img-m180-mag2c-msax-2.jpg



Photos: M180 in SureFire KL2 Host

Note: This is a very limited edition! The KL2 head has been long discontinued by SureFire, and as such is in short supply. However, if you've got one... this is what it could become!

img-m180-kl2-head-reflectors-trans.gif


img-m180-kl2-front-angled.jpg


On standard M3 body
img-m180-kl2-side.jpg


On M3 body with SW02 tailswitch
img-m180-kl2-swo2-m180-mag2c-profile.jpg


SW02 tailswitch allows the light to stand upright
img-m180-kl2-swo2-m180-mag2c-upright.jpg


Beam Profile
img-m180-kl2-ceiling.jpg


Posterized... note that the oval shape is result of the light being held at an angle... the beam is perfectly round in reality!
img-m180-kl2-posterized.jpg


Carpet
img-m180-kl2-carpet.jpg


Real World: Midday Sun (left) vs. M180-KL2 (right)
img-m180-kl2-porch.jpg



M180-Mag2C vs. M180-KL2

img-m180-kl2-swo2-m180-mag2c-lensflare.jpg


img-m180-kl2-swo2-m180-mag2c-stacked.jpg


Mag 2C vs. M3 body
img-m180-mag2c-kl2-standup.jpg


Mag 2C vs. M3 with SW02 tailswitch
img-m180-kl2-swo2-m180-mag2c-standups.jpg


Bezel ends
img-m180-mag2c-kl2-laydown.jpg



Photos: M180 in SureFire KL2 Crenelated Host

SureFire customer service has assured me there is no such animal as a KL2 head with an M3-style, hard anodized crenelated bezel... then milkyspit somehow managed to receive TWO still in their unopened SureFire factory boxes. I don't know what to make of this! But it is pretty!! This is the way all KL2 heads should be. Photos courtesy of milkyspit.

The elusive crenelated KL2, sighted in the Milky Labs!
img-m180-kl2-leef-standup.jpg


M180-KL2 crenelated business end. Note the ultra clear stock glass, barely visible in the photo.
img-m180-kl2-leef-window.jpg


KL2 crenelated head profile
img-m180-kl2-leef-profile.jpg


Underside showing the typical M series contact springs
img-m180-kl2-leef-springs.jpg


M180-KL2 crenelated, mounted on a prototype C2M adapter and Surefire C2 body, with SW01 tailcap
img-m180-kl2-m2c-c2-sw01-profile.jpg


Milky's personal M180-KL2 crenelated enjoying a fine autumn day
img-m180-kl2-cb-sxoh-personal.jpg



Photos: Kiessling's M180-KL2 Crenelated Jewelbox!

One-of-a-kind, built per specific request. The keys here are a black felt surface that sets off the reflectors like three jewels in a window, plus another of the ultra-rare crenelated bezel SureFire KL2 hosts. Photos courtesy of milkyspit.

Scotch Tape Spool, Rocks, Leaves Not Included
img-m180-kl2-kiessling-outdoor-closeup.jpg


Yes, that's an M3-style crenelated hard anodized bezel on there...
img-m180-kl2-kiessling-closeup.jpg


Mounted on an M3 body
img-m180-kl2-kiessling-stacked.jpg


Beam profile
img-m180-kl2-kiessling-ceiling-beam.jpg


Milky Labs before and after powering up the Kiessling M180-KL2-Jewelbox
img-m180-kl2-kiessling-frontporch.jpg



Photos: MSaxatilus' M180-M3

Turns out the M180 platform fits inside a SureFire M3 head as well. It's a fair amount more work to get everything just right since the head never was created to house LEDs and has no heatsinking bulkhead... plus a SureFire lamp assembly needs to be sacrificed to craft the dual-spring contact points underneath (burned-out LA works fine for this)... on the other hand, the heatsink is a solid aluminum slug a full half-inch thick!

Photos courtesy of MSaxatilus.

"What in the heck could it possibly be?"
img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-5.jpg


Profile
img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-1-1.jpg


img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-1.jpg


Collage
img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-6.jpg


img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-4.jpg


img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-3.jpg


Outdoors
img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-7.jpg


img-m180-m3-msaxatilus-8.jpg



Photos: MSaxatilus' M420-KT4 (M6 Host)

MSaxatilus placed the first-ever order for an M6 mod! Milkyspit is turning the KT4 turbohead on that light into an M420 and building a 2x18650 cell caddy for the body. The KT4 also fits M3 and M4 bodies. On 2x18650 cells, this combination should deliver 420 lumens continuous for about 2 hours. The head even includes an inch thick block of solid aluminum! Though milkyspit tells me it's not needed. :naughty:

That's one beautiful bezel.

Photos provided by Milkyspit.

Profile
img-m420-kt4-msax-preview.jpg


Looking Into The Bezel
img-m420-kt4-msax-bezel.jpg


Additional photos provided by MSaxatilus.

Components with Bezel End of Head Visible
img-m420-msax-1.jpg


Components with Back End of Head Visible
img-m420-msax-2.jpg


Standing
img-m420-msax-3.jpg


Head End Closeup
img-m420-msax-4.jpg



Photos: M360 "Silver Guardian YS" Prototype

The M360 "Silver Guardian YS" is a prototype M360 light Milkyspit has built into a Mag 3C silver host powered by 12AA NiMH rechargeables. The stainless steel Kiu crown pictured is not typically part of the build. The "YS" designation refers to the two tiered, dual heatsink design that allows for the sixth reflector to sit recessed in the center of the head, thereby allowing for more emitters sitting in a smaller diameter. (Milky says it reminds him of Yankee Stadium [=YS]... he's a Yankee fan.) The Silver Guardian YS supports five brightness levels, all digitally controlled, as well as electronic lockout, temporary burst from any brightness level, and many other features. On 12AA Sanyo 2700mAh NiMH cells, the M360 at highest output should deliver 360 lumens continuous for more than 5 hours.

Photos provided by Milkyspit.

Looking Into The Head End
img-m360-silver-guardian2-into-head.jpg


Profile
img-m360-silver-guardian2-profile.jpg


Closeup Showing the Two Tiers
img-m360-silver-guardian2-closeup.jpg
 
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Knight Lights

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Additional Photos

img-pf6-monster-lineup.jpg


Mag 2C with Kiu Stainless Steel Bezel vs. Mag 3D with FiveMega Head
img-pf6-m180-m360(3d)-upright.jpg


Bezel View vs. Mag 3D with FiveMega Head
img-pf6-m180-m360(3d).jpg


Same as above, different angle
img-pf6-m360(3d)-m180.jpg


FiveMega Head outfitted with 5x27mm smooth reflectors
img-m360-5x27.jpg


Closer look with a pushbutton switch sitting on the lens
img-m360-5x27-and-switch.jpg
 

NewBie

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What are the lux numbers at 1 meter?

Do you have any comparision beamshots, side-by-side in the same photo?

Your lumens, are these derated for loss of the reflector, and lumen loss due to heat, or are they just the lumens spec of the LED?
 
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milkyspit

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Hi Newbie! :wave:

Maybe I can address these... and if I do a bad job at it, PM me and I'll do my best to elaborate!

Lux readings at 1M... just took some quickly, so I would label these as preliminary specs, but they at least give a decent idea of things...

M180-KL2 roughly 3000 lux at 1M.
M180-Mag 2C roughly 5260 lux at 1M.

Both lights feature a 3-up arrangement of emitters, and both happen to have emitters of same bin from the same lot. Note that the Mag 2C version posts substantially higher readings due to its use of 3x 20mm smooth reflectors, as opposed to the 3x 16mm orange peel reflectors of the KL2 version. Size limitations in the head preclude anything larger in the latter.

I won't even pretend that these lights could best a good incandescent bulb/reflector combination for throw, but they (the M180, et. al.) will produce quite a bit of light to the sides in addition to that throw... and pretty much wipe out the incandescents in terms of runtime... but that's the whole point of this design. These lights have been engineered for overall output and long continuous runtime... mainly, to be extremely efficient!

Beamshots... sorry, I don't have any side-by-side comparison beamshots at the moment... not that I never plan on having them! Just haven't done it yet. Well, that plus I really stink at taking beamshots! You have no idea the difficulty I had in just capturing ONE beam with any degree of reality. :ohgeez:

That said, Kiessling will be receiving an M180-KL2 and I have hopes that he will take a few comparative shots of that light vs. some of the others in his collection.

Lumens... these are based on Lumileds specs... in other words, they're EMITTER lumens (like bulb lumens for incans)... they are not derated for reflector loss. Neither are they derated for lumen loss due to heat, but these lights are extremely well heatsinked due to their design for long continuous runtime... if anything, the heatsinking represents serious overkill! and in extended field testing including continuous runs in the 30 minutes through 1 hour vicinity, there has been no noticeable loss of brightness. (Yes, I know the eye is far from the most sensitive instrument for such an observation, though in my defense I do get very picky about such things and have been known to do A-B tests over... and over... and over... to discern slight brightness differences. Plus for some reason my eyes seem to be unusually sensitive... maybe even TOO sensitive!) There has been no notable loss in brightness over extended runs, nor would I expect to see any given the thermal design of the hosts.

It's also worth mentioning that the emitters are driven at Lumileds spec... and in the case of the M512 are actually driven BELOW spec'd current. Output numbers in this case are derated based both on Lumileds' published lumens vs. current information, and DiFiorentino's Luxeon efficiency measurements at various currents.

Last but not least, I use the AVERAGE luminous output numbers in an effort not to overhype these lights.

As far as some additional data points, I have done extensive A-B dark room ceiling bounce testing of the M180 against various "known" (or at least reasonably trustworthy IMHO) benchmarks... this in lieu of formal integrating sphere testing, for which I have neither the funds nor the access unfortunately. Prior to A-B testing the lights are positioned to be at equal distances from the ceiling, and to center their hotspots at the same location on the ceiling. Alternating between A-B continues until the brighter light is discernable... or in some cases where my eyes cannot discern a brighter light with sufficient degree of confidence, the comparison is declared a dead heat. In some cases where one light appears brighter but only by a small amount, I reverse positions of the lights and repeat the test to check for bias due to slightly different positions and/or beam angles, and again, if the results do not remain consistent in the retest, the comparison is declared a dead heat.

The M180 pretty much wipes out the HDS U60; and pretty handily beats the SureFire U2, L5, and L2, all at highest outputs.

The M180 also beats a SureFire P90 lamp assembly using 3x123 fresh primaries (100% ZTS)... that light has a published spec of 105 lumens... and my understanding is those lumens DO take into account reflector loss, plus they're the lumens to be expected at midpoint of the light's runtime... in practice some folks far smarter than I have estimated that a P90 on fresh cells falls more in the 120-150 lumens range... if so, this is good evidence that the M180 is indeed at the very least in the ballpark of 180 lumens coming out the front of the light.

The M180 also beats the SureFire M3 using its LOLA on 3x123 fresh primary cells (100% ZTS)... the LOLA has a published spec of 125 lumens out the front (not bulb lumens), and I've been told, again by some people whose opinion I trust, that the actual luminous output with fresh cells is more like 150 lumens. Again good evidence that the M180 is generating output along the lines of its design spec.

Hope this helps! And sorry if some of my test methodology isn't exactly state of the art. I do the best with what I've got available. :)

NewBie said:
What are the lux numbers at 1 meter?

Do you have any comparision beamshots, side-by-side in the same photo?

Your lumens, are these derated for loss of the reflector, and lumen loss due to heat, or are they just the lumens spec of the LED?
 

milkyspit

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MikeF, Knight Lights seems to be occupied at the moment... I'll PM ya in a couple minutes about this. Thanks! :)

MikeF said:
:paypal: Just tell where and how much!! M420 or M512!!
 

milkyspit

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Long John said:
Hello milky:)

Great explanation and nice lights:goodjob:.

Good luck from me and best regards

_____
Tom


Much appreciated Tom! Thanks! :eek:

BTW, I'm not just a Project-M builder... I'm a Project-M user! ;)
 

milkyspit

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Added a few more battery configurations to the runtime chart... might need to refresh your browser page to see the new chart.
:thumbsup:
 

Archangel

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I just finished a run-time of my M180 - which looks amazingly like milky's flat black one - running on 2x18650 LG 2400mAh. It was at full output at 5hours. I'm pretty sure i checked it at 5'15 and it was still at full output. (If i checked it, it was.) At 5'30 is was a lot dimmer than i was expecting considering it was at full output not that long before. I'll be conservative and call it a 5hour run-time, partly because that's a nice round number.

As an aside, say i drain batteries, umm.. very low, but they recover above 3v (and climbing, albeit slowly), are they still good to go? I'll do a follow-up run-time test with them, but with the weekend starting tomorrow, it might not be any time soon. (EDIT: they charged up fine, so here's hoping...)
 
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milkyspit

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Archangel said:
I just finished a run-time of my M180 - which looks amazingly like milky's flat black one - running on 2x18650 LG 2400mAh. It was at full output at 5hours. I'm pretty sure i checked it at 5'15 and it was still at full output. (If i checked it, it was.) At 5'30 is was a lot dimmer than i was expecting considering it was at full output not that long before. I'll be conservative and call it a 5hour run-time, partly because that's a nice round number.

As an aside, say i drain batteries, umm.. very low, but they recover above 3v (and climbing, albeit slowly), are they still good to go? I'll do a follow-up run-time test with them, but with the weekend starting tomorrow, it might not be any time soon. (EDIT: they charged up fine, so here's hoping...)


Archie, :wave: Interesting... the runtime chart predicts 4h42m with those cells. It's good to see that the estimates in the chart do indeed seem to have some connection with reality... in fact, they may be slightly conservative! :naughty:

MANY THANKS for taking the time to do that runtime test, and to share the results with folks!
:bow: :bow: :bow:

As for your battery question... the sudden dimming is probably due to the fact that the Li-ion chemistry pretty much falls off a cliff after it drops to something like 3.2V per cell (going from memory)... that would explain the sudden dimming. With unprotected cells, you really don't want to run them AT ALL once they dim like that! Get them to a charger immediately! Otherwise you risk destroying the cells.

Anyway, that's why I would typically suggest protected cells in these lights... they'll shut themselves down before overdischarge can occur... but as you've shown, unprotected has its merits, too... namely well over an hour of additional runtime! :)


Thanks again! :eek:
 

KDOG3

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So where can we get one of these lights?

Heck I'd just like one of the assemblies to put in a 6P!!!
 
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milkyspit

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KDOG3 said:
So where can we get one of these lights?

Heck I'd just like one of the assemblies to put in a 6P!!!


Hi Dog, ;) I guess Knight Lights will be posting some sort of B/S/T sales thread at some point but I know he's been pretty busy with life in general the past week or so. In the meantime, there's no shame in PMing me directly! I can quote you a price for what you want. All I ask is that you give me a good idea of which light you're looking for and are sincere in your intention to buy... not that you'll HAVE to buy, but that you're prepared to if the numbers work out.

As a benchmark, I can tell you the M180 in a Mag 2C platform has been going for $225 and so far I've had no complaints as to it being a bad deal! :)

The M180-KL2 is priced somewhere around $245 but this number can fluctuate up or down based on availability of the KL2 heads, which are kinda difficult to locate. Of course, anyone who already has one and wants it built into an M180 will end up saving a decent chunk of change since their price won't include the KL2 at all! :naughty:

It's still early in the work day... hope this was intelligible!
 

Archangel

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Just wanted to add that the head of my M180 never got more than warm and the body seemed room temperature, which means that it soaked up a bit of the heat since metal usually feels cool if it's just sitting there.
 

Archangel

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I managed another run-time sooner than i was expecting and noticed a flicker at 5'15. When i checked the output i could watch the numbers ticking down. Measuring the batteries, one was 2.8v and the other just under half that, so i may have damaged one of them the other day, though it could also be that whole "heat causes batteries to drain faster" thing. I'll see how it fares in my U-04. EDIT: I'm not sure how, but i got over 4.5hours; methinks some Barbolight graphing is in order.

Someone'll need to test out a NiMH configuration. They don't make for a light torch, but you gotta like Ds. Is alkaline a viable option?
 
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Mike Painter

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This is so close to what I've been looking for. Long run time and bright.
Would the 2D version use a normal length body?
Would there be any chance of adding a dimmer of some sort? I would like two or three stages over the actual dimming.
How ever it would be worth carrying an extra light or a translucent snap-on lens for this L^3 = LLL = (Lovely Little Light)
 
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