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Thread: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

  1. #1
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    Default How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    I am looking into buying a light, probably be a keychain like (Cr2 Ion, FF3, Jil Intelli, ?), wondering how theses small (or other) small HA3 flashlights fare when connected to/bashing into your keys ... anyone have experience to share/pics to show? Thanks!

    Doug

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    Flashaholic* Jumpmaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug
    (Cr2 Ion. . .(or other) small HA3 flashlights
    From the thread you started here of similar title, we determined that the CR2 Ion is "HA-LIKE"...which means it is NOT HA. And folks have attested that it gets worn a lot when carried on a keychain, so I think we have the CR2 Ion covered.

    JM-99

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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    I've been carrying my JIL DD w/ FluPIC for the last year on my keychain and the finish is still smooth except near the splitring attachment. Other than that, there's a few dings here and there, nothing serious. I'll try to post some pictures later on. The JIL Intelli is the best keychain light out there IMHO. The battery lasts forever when you're not using it at max brightness.

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    * The Arctic Moderator * Sigman's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Been carrying my HA ARC AAA for several years on my keychain - and barely any wear on the body. Some around where the split ring is. It doesn't look "brand new" - but it doesn't look bad compared to the black one I carried. The black one showed a lot of wear!
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    Flashaholic* Manzerick's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    i'm amazed with my ARC-P

    Hold up like a champ!!

    The only mark it one that I made when sliding the clip off..

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    Flashaholic* Somy Nex's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    There are a lot of very good comments on the Arcs, but unfortunately I don't own one, but for me, the JIL has by far the best anodizing of any light I own, including my SFs. I've been carrying it in my pocket for about 8 months now, and have not treated it kindly. Apart from the usual wear you will find on the edges (such as where the split ring attaches and on knurling), the only way i've been able to substantially damage it is by "showing it off" and running the can opener of my swiss army knife over it with quite a bit of force. Even so, you'd have to look very closely with a macro camera lens to notice any blemishes outside the normal wear I described above. Here are a few shots, click on any for full size to see all the blemishes:

    first my swiss army knife for reference (sorry i don't own any fancy knives ) you can't see it this size but click on for full size to see the gouges in the metal of the knife--this is what anything in my pocket has to withstand.


    with my recently arrived Raw Ns (basically the Raw Ns is shorter by the length of the splitring attachment on the JiL)



    another shot just for kicks (both illuminated by the Jet-I)


    split ring attachment. click on pic for full size to see blems.


    other side of the light. this is where i ran the sharp end of the can opener (the one that's supposed to cut through metal) hardest over the light. this is the only time out of many i've been able to get such a mark on a flat surface of the light.


    some random shot
    Last edited by Somy Nex; 07-27-2006 at 08:55 AM.
    Somy Nex

  7. #7
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    unfortunately there is no non-destructive tests available to end user for determining HA quality.

    fortunately there is a simple HA test. "gold cpf standard" for testing hard anodize is the scratch test.

    take a known hardness tool. for most of us that would be a high quality heat treated blade 59-62 rockwell range. hard anodize will be 67 rockwell range.

    find a spot that will not show if knife tip scratches light.
    knife tip will bounce off quality HA.

    after you do this test a number of times, you get a feel when knife tip is getting ready to break thru anodizing. indicating thickness of anodic film.

    color anodized lights (not HA) like fenix will scratch right thru.

    don't perform this test on sharp edges. HA forms differently on sharp edges. that's why even new Surefire and ARC's might have tiny bare specks on sharp edges.

    lights with agressive knurls will show bare specks on sharp points first.

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    Flashaholic* cryhavok's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    I have a Jet-1 CR123 on my keychain and the finish has held incredibly well. The only places that show some slight wear is around the sharp edges near where it is attached to the keychain. Other than that, no nicks or scratches in the main body.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by cy
    ...
    color anodized lights (not HA) like fenix will scratch right thru.
    ...
    What?! That's not good. I thought they were HA-III, like it says on fenix-store.com and flashlightreviews.com. In flashlightreviews.com's summary of the P1, for example, says "Anodized Type III aluminum," and fenix-store's description says "Type III hard anodized finish". If that's not HA-III, I don't know what is!

    Can anyone confirm the anodize finish of Fenix lights?

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    Flashaholic* Jumpmaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?


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    *Flashaholic* carrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    The Fenix is HA, anodize type III finish. cy may be referring to the older Fenixes which were considered slightly harder than normal type II finish, but softer than mil-spec type III. It was often called HA2.5 here on the forums I believe. The newer Fenixes I have all seem to have better, harder finishes than those earlier models.
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    I've got one of the new JILs with the new HA look and I wonder how well it holds up. I can attest to carrying the old JIL for more than 6 months on keys that are in my pockets and the only signs of wear are the edges of the lights. Like cy said in another thread, the HA bonds differently to sharp edges so you can't expect much in that respect.

    Cheers!

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    *Flashaholic* greenLED's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigman
    Been carrying my HA ARC AAA for several years on my keychain - and barely any wear on the body. Some around where the split ring is. It doesn't look "brand new" - but it doesn't look bad compared to the black one I carried. The black one showed a lot of wear!
    That's been my experience with my ArcAAA's as well. And to use CY's words Arc and SF are the "golden standard" when it comes to HA. Arc's have the toughest anodizing I've had to remove.

    Carrot, is that pic of your Fenix L1P one of the "old" HA or the newer ones? Cuz it looks

  14. #14

    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by cy
    color anodized lights (not HA) like fenix will scratch right thru.



    I don't have anything on me with a "known Rockwell range", but I took the tip of an Exacto knife to the inside of my Fenix L1P and to the side of my Arc AAA-P with identical results - nothing.

    Fenix looks like HAIII to me.

  15. #15

    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug
    I am looking into buying a light, probably be a keychain like (Cr2 Ion, FF3, Jil Intelli, ?), wondering how theses small (or other) small HA3 flashlights fare when connected to/bashing into your keys ... anyone have experience to share/pics to show? Thanks!

    Doug
    I carried a CMG Infinity Ultra-G on my keychain for a while. The finish has held up well enough. There are some very minor dings along the body, while the finish on the knurling and the edge of the lug have worn a bit to reveal some of the metal underneath. I suppose that might bother somebody who wants pristine condition all the time, but for me, its no big deal.

  16. #16
    *Flashaholic* carrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenLED
    Carrot, is that pic of your Fenix L1P one of the "old" HA or the newer ones? Cuz it looks
    It's old and heavily abused. The newer ones have a visibly different finish-- shinier.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by mchlwise

    ...
    Fenix looks like HAIII to me.
    Thank goodness! I should be getting a P1 from fenix-store soon, and I don't yet know whether it will go into a pocket or the holster. Now I feel better about pocketing it, where it will go up against keys on the left or a knife on the right.

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    Flashaholic* CroMAGnet's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    My Chrome Jil DD (UP Modded) is practically as new after 7months of EDC on my keychain. Although I don't have any "keys" on my keychain. Just a discrete key fob, tritium vial and swiss army knife. I'm very impressed.

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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpmaster
    From the thread you started here of similar title, we determined that the CR2 Ion is "HA-LIKE"...which means it is NOT HA. And folks have attested that it gets worn a lot when carried on a keychain, so I think we have the CR2 Ion covered.

    JM-99
    I don't think assumptions should be made, especially based on the conjecture of others who could just be the blind leading the blind. I've been very upfront about what the CR2 Ion specifications are throughout, detailed what it was I was doing, and have information on my website that someone quoted in the other thread you linked here as well.

    The colored anodizing is coating that meets and exceeds all characteristics of MilSpec Type III Anodizing except for abrassion resistance, which is a little less, but still falls within the realm of being considered a hardcoat finish. The process I used to get those done is something I've never seen anyone else offer before or since, and I'm not inclined to divulge the proprietary details of it. Most colors that come out as vibrant as my lights do usually indicate a Type II anodized substrate, but that's not the case with the CR2 Ions. This is all noted rather clearly here: http://www.photonsintl.com/tech.html

    It is a different process and one that, so far as I know, hasn't been used by anyone else in the flashlight industry before. To that end you'll simply have to choose whether or not my reputation is good enough to believe that what I'm saying is true, otherwise,

    The black and natural are the standard MilSpec type anodizing that most here are used to, and based on several user's experiences, those two seem to wear better if you carry a lot of metal in your pocket (knives, etc).

    I've been on vacation, and still am until July 30th. My internet access has been infrequent and my e-mail doesn't work here, but notwithstanding, if you have any questions, I'd be more than happy to hear from any of you and I'll get back to you as soon as I'm back in town and my e-mail works again.

    -Enrique

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    Flashaholic* Jumpmaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endeavour
    The black and natural are the standard MilSpec type anodizing that most here are used to, and based on several user's experiences, those two seem to wear better if you carry a lot of metal in your pocket (knives, etc).
    I think that was my point. If it doesn't meet the Type III spec for abrasion resistance (against a lot of metal in one's pockets, for instance), then it is Type III - LIKE. NOT Type III. It is called a specification for a reason.

    So, based on others' reports is it safe to say that if carried in the pocket with keys, it will get very worn -- unlike true HAIII?

    BTW, I do have one so I'm not trying to bash it. But I won't carry it with anything metal in my pocket.

    JM-99

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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Jumpmaster,
    In that case you should:
    a) read the entire post
    b) order the black or natural Ion because they are Mil III


    But frankly I just don't get it. Who cares? Use it, abuse it, wear it out and buy something better in two years when its obsolete.

    The only lights I baby are the SPY005 and the ARCAA. And I just sold the Arc because it was a shelf queen collectors item (and yes it is obsolete, replaced with Peak Pacific AA pocket body). I really need to use the spy though, I will never sell it, but it is irreplacable.

    Unlike knives very few lights will be collectors items for very long, because the technology will make them obsolete. If you want to keep it as an investment (Ti PD) then it should never be taken out of the packaging or played with. Yuck, whats the point!
    Last edited by cave dave; 07-27-2006 at 04:37 PM.
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    Flashaholic* Jumpmaster's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by cave dave
    Jumpmaster,
    In that case you should:
    a) read the entire post
    I did. I understood it. My point is still valid.

    Here is an example...it would be the same as if Thales sells a radio and says it meets MIL-STD 810 except for water-resistance. Well guess what...water-resistance is part of MIL-STD 810. Therefore, it does not meet MIL-STD 810.

    Got it?

    I don't really care. It's a nice light. I'm just saying if it doesn't meet the spec for abrasion resistance, it DOESN'T FLIPPING MEET THE SPECIFICATION.

    JM-99
    Last edited by Jumpmaster; 07-27-2006 at 04:13 PM.

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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    sorry but every fenix I've done scratch test on... scratches right thru. this is done on a L1-P model w/logo on side indicating later model.

    knife used is a small sebbie..



    Quote Originally Posted by carrot
    The Fenix is HA, anodize type III finish. cy may be referring to the older Fenixes which were considered slightly harder than normal type II finish, but softer than mil-spec type III. It was often called HA2.5 here on the forums I believe. The newer Fenixes I have all seem to have better, harder finishes than those earlier models.

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    Flashaholic* Somy Nex's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by cy
    sorry but every fenix I've done scratch test on... scratches right thru. this is done on a L1-P model w/logo on side indicating later model.

    knife used is a small sebbie..
    I know the coating on the Fenix is probably less thick than others, but LedMuseum has tried his scratch test and mentioned that it was HAIII.

    I wonder if you have tried the same on the outside of the light. I know it doesn't make sense, but the I scratched the inside with increasing amounts of force until i made a mark, and then tried it outside, and up to that point at least, it did not leave any gouge on the HA (though it did leave a sort of smudge mark).

    another question would be how much force would you consider necessary to test whether it is HAIII or not? it would probably depend in part to the thickness of the anodizing, but a thin layer of type III anodize is still a type III anodize right? it just wouldn't hold up to the more forceful attempts at scratching it because what is underneath is still soft aluminium...

    anyway, i'm inclined to believe that there is some sort of HAIII on the Fenix, as it does withstand light to light-moderate scratches from my swiss army knife, but it probably is just a very thin layer of it... does that make any sense?
    Somy Nex

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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    not very much pressure is required to break thru anodic film with a hard knife. naturally I'm going to chose a spot that will not be noticed. if scratch test fails.

    yes I've done this test a number of times on outsides of flashlights. but they were all HA natural lights. dyed anodize can look either way. and no it's not hard anodize unless full penatration has taken place.

    note: my test are only valid for fenix's I've done scatch tests on. later fenix's could have improved.

    if fenix's finish was not dyed black. it's anodic film in natural state would be almost clear. that's why I prefer HA natural. it's honest.

    quality HA natural will come out the color of Surefire/Arc's.
    assuming a quality aluminun alloy has been used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Somy Nex
    I know the coating on the Fenix is probably less thick than others, but LedMuseum has tried his scratch test and mentioned that it was HAIII.

    I wonder if you have tried the same on the outside of the light. I know it doesn't make sense, but the I scratched the inside with increasing amounts of force until i made a mark, and then tried it outside, and up to that point at least, it did not leave any gouge on the HA (though it did leave a sort of smudge mark).

    another question would be how much force would you consider necessary to test whether it is HAIII or not? it would probably depend in part to the thickness of the anodizing, but a thin layer of type III anodize is still a type III anodize right? it just wouldn't hold up to the more forceful attempts at scratching it because what is underneath is still soft aluminium...

    anyway, i'm inclined to believe that there is some sort of HAIII on the Fenix, as it does withstand light to light-moderate scratches from my swiss army knife, but it probably is just a very thin layer of it... does that make any sense?

  26. #26

    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    CY,

    I have to say you're wrong about Fenix being not HAIII. They are indeed
    HAIII which requires lots of current pumped through the aluminum bodies in
    a hot acidic batch.

    There are of course varying thickness so your scratch test cannot be
    a sure test of whether it's HAIII or not.

    CPF'er "Steve Vance" did a chemical test on his fenix and the result was
    positive. It is HAIII and not mere paint as you suggest.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    I just tried to scratch up my Civictor and Maglight with the end of a wire paperclip. This was done on the outside of the Mag and the inside of the Civictor. The Mag was easy to mark but I couldn't get the (Fenix) Civictor to scratch up at all. There was a faint silver mark but that was just the metal rubbing off the paperclip onto the light and it wiped off with a finger. I'm guessing that the 'proper' Fenix lights will be even better than that.

  28. #28
    *Flashaholic* carrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by cy
    sorry but every fenix I've done scratch test on... scratches right thru. this is done on a L1-P model w/logo on side indicating later model.

    knife used is a small sebbie..
    How "new" are we talking? My new Fenix is no more than 3 weeks old and my 154CM Mini-Grip bounces right off the finish, unlike the older model I have... *with* a logo on the side.
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  29. #29
    *Flashaholic* greenLED's Avatar
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    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by carrot
    How "new" are we talking? My new Fenix is no more than 3 weeks old and my 154CM Mini-Grip bounces right off the finish, unlike the older model I have... *with* a logo on the side.
    Maybe you're not trying hard enough, carrot? I just scratched the batt tube on my L1P (with logo) using the tip of my Leatherman micra tool (scissors). At first I couldn't get a scratch, but then I pushed a little harder, and made a scratch.

  30. #30

    Default Re: How well does HAIII hold up to keychain use?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenLED
    Maybe you're not trying hard enough, carrot? I just scratched the batt tube on my L1P (with logo) using the tip of my Leatherman micra tool (scissors). At first I couldn't get a scratch, but then I pushed a little harder, and made a scratch.
    I just jammed an ice pick into mine as hard as I could, and it left a mark.

    /sarcasm



    Seriously: how well can one expect true HAIII to hold up, and how much is it supposed to withstand? As an earlier poster mentioned, no matter how "true" the HAIII is, it's really just a thin film over a soft metal, and when hit, scraped, poked, or scratched hard enough, it's going to leave a mark - if nothing else from failure and deformation of the soft aluminum underneath. HAIII doesn't turn aluminum into Tungsten or something unscratchable, and when attacked hard enough, it will scratch.

    Or am I wrong?

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