So I tried firing a handgun while holding a light today...

I frequent an indoor firing range near my house and have used weapon-mounted lights of various fashions. Today I was hankering to shoot, and figured since I own like $5,000 in Surefires that I should probably try one of the various flashlight-holding techniques while firing a handgun that does not have an integrated light.

Let me tell you that this is a lot harder than it seems!! Pointing a handgun and a light in the same area is quite a lot to coordinate for my small brain. Actually I was afraid that squeezing a Surefire switch to the on position may cause a sympathetic squeezing of the trigger of the gun in my other hand, but this turned out to be a non-issue.

I tried firing while holding several different lights, and found that Surefire's rubber "combat" ring thingy was VERY handy. My L5 was really the only light I could hold securely while firing. (The handgun is a 1911 firing .45ACP +P Hornady TAP ammo, so it's a decent amount of noise, flash and fire.) I could only get a truly secure grip on this light, and had to hold it between my middle and ring fingers. Holding it between index and middle fingers allowed the light to jump too much when firing.

Then I tried the various light holding techniques... "Surefire/Rogers" was a dud for me (where you cross your arms); what did work quite well for me was holding the light using its rubber combat ring and positioning the light as in the Thunder Ranch style (arms not crossed).

Anyway, any one of those techniques isn't for me in a defensive situation. I'd probably be too likely to forget to switch off the safety of the handgun or something. I'll keep a light handy in the nightstand, but in the classical situation of someone kicking my front door in in the middle of the night I think I'll rely on dark-adapted eyesight first, flashlight second.

Oh... I also used a U2 and the LED, while bright, just didn't have the "illumination factor" of the incans. Incans lit the target way, way better. I went through this before and thought I'd try LED vs. incan for shooting and the incan wins again, hands-down.

I also thought the gun and light would miraculously be pointed at the same thing... not so, I still had to use the sights, and at that, the light was usually pointed pretty far from the target.

IMHO, this type of combat technique is best used by someone who can practice it frequently enough so that it's always fresh. I'm real glad I tried it though, because even though I've "cleared" my own house with an empty handgun and a light, it's nothing compared to actually firing and light holding!!

EDIT: My L5 is not LED any more, it has a Turbohead with an MN16 lamp assembly and is powered by two RCR123s. That setup lasted through 100 rounds of ammo (slow fire) and were at 3.7v open-circuit voltage afterward.

Now you know why weapons lights are becoming more popular. Training people to use the loose light method is a lot more intensive than when the weapon has one mounted.

Try a lanyard and there are a bunch of ways to attatch the light with the lanyard to your weapon hand or off hand. The lanyard is not going to hold the light in a perfect position it will allow you to use your off hand for a little more weapon support while struggling with the light and will keep you from dropping the light. I like to attach the lanyard by a large O ring to the cap area of a Golston and wrap that around my off hand thumb, light on the palm side, then back over the light. I have cord lock on the lanyard and at that point I pull it tight with my teeth. I then can grasp the pistol in a two hand support with the light pinned between my thumb and pistol. I have very long fingers and large hands. It doesn't make much differnce to me which make or model pistol when using this hold. Practice makes perfect. I would not engage a hostile target without knowing my techniques were ingrained. I grew up with firearms in my hands and as a young adult 30+ years ago I was quite successful in combat style competitions. Because of my career choices I have had to use those skills in confrontations. I find hand held lights cannot hold a candle (oh its late, I need to quit here) to a weapon mounted light.

Cool story, I liked it.:rock:

I guess this backs up Surefires "wall of light" style beam.

Thanks for the write up Scott. Im not a hand gun shooter but I myself see the "Thunder Ranch style" as been one that I would use. Im sure any style you would use needs lots of range time to get used to it.

Great experience Scott, thanks for sharing. But you didnt get to try it in the dark? Maybe you could ask them to dim the lights for a night shoot next time.
Actually if I remember correctly, the Surefire/Rogers technique IS the between the fingers/cigar grip, the cross handed one is the Harries technique for bigger lights like a maglight. Whatever your preferrence though your right it sure does take alot of practice and coordination, especially if your running through a combat course identifying and engaging multiple targets, its very mentally and physically intense.. the most fun I ever have at a range is definitely at night.

Sounds like you had some fun and could justify having so many lights. Alot of gun companys are making their guns with the "Rails" option to accomodate lights. I think you will see alot more lights available for firearms in the future. This should make everyones credit card companys very happy.
I went shooting and was firing a Kimber TLE RL II with Crimson trace laser grips with a ITI M3X rail mounted light and I did notice that after awhile I had to clean the gun powder of the lense of the light. The ammo was cheap target so it had alot powdery smoke to go with it. I will have to try shooting with a light in hand sometime. Hope i don't have to buy any more lights to try this out:naughty:

Quote
"IMHO, this type of combat technique is best used by someone who can practice it frequently enough so that it's always fresh. I'm real glad I tried it though, because even though I've "cleared" my own house with an empty handgun and a light, it's nothing compared to actually firing and light holding!!"

i think you hit the nail on the head there, "practice it frequently enough" is the main point

i think people should be aware than owning a light and then dry shooting is completely different to being under pressure and firing.

scott.cr, on a side note, nice gun, i love the 1911, versatile and compact and lots of options,

Good post on techniques. I attend at least one night fire based course a year. For me THe Harries, hands crossed, back to back, is the most natural. But then I carry slim non-grip ring lights. SL TL-2 mostly. But practice is it, you need as much practice as you can to become proficient. Also one of our courses was in a bit of fog and I noticed your Incan/LED statement too. The Incan's really do cut thru the fog better than the LED's.

I have taken many combat courses (and taught a few), including Thunder Ranch's and I find using my night vision with tritium sights is the way to go for me. The light is used after that all important first shot, when you instantly loose your night vision (and much of your day vision too ) as well as your hearing.

Cliff

Is there any illustrations showing the various flashlight holding techniques (Rogers, Harries, modified Harries, etc.)? Just want to make sure I know which is which.
Thanks.

I noticed the same poor performance for lighting targets on an indoor range with LED lights. Even though the lights were bright outside (dark yard) and in unlit home, at the range, with some background lighting, LED lights just washed out. It was the incans that ruled the roost at the range.

Heres a good thread I found on another forum I used to frequent.

It might be in the thread linked to the one on THR posted above. But I tried night firing with a Mag85, it was useless. Night vision was gone, everything that wasnt being directly illuminated was gone. Including my front sight.

The website BigBaller linked to is very good.

The Harries position shown is actually the reverse Harries, the original was with the flashlight held below the shooting hand. Reverse is improvement because it helps hold down recoil of weapon. Also more natural to use with an Applegate technique of bringing the weapon up from the 45 degree down angle ready position that is usually taught.
All this prevents "searching with the muzzle" accidents and bad shootings.
Most shootings take place at night or under poor lighting conditions. Houston from 99-04 had 59% night shootings.
Don't get me started on the % of hits. Terrible
Actually civilians score better than police.

vic303 said:

I noticed the same poor performance for lighting targets on an indoor range with LED lights. Even though the lights were bright outside (dark yard) and in unlit home, at the range, with some background lighting, LED lights just washed out. It was the incans that ruled the roost at the range.

Click to expand...

It is not so much the source of the light, it is the amount, the brightness. That is why I use a Golston, as I stated I have no idea how the manufacturer gets the thing to throw light but it does. If you look in LE supply catalogs there are too many claims of tactical lights that produce 60-80 lumens. There are a lot of great light bodies and systems out there waiting for the holy grail of LEDs to come around with the true 10 Watt, the future will tell. 60-80 lumens is not enough, 100+ is better 160+ is OK. Stingers go about 100 and can handle it, I have seen the result, they're OK. You can get a lot of light on target by use of good optics, reflectors, they will concetrate the light but there is a break point. Too small of a spot gives you tunnel vision. Same idea as a laser, they have a lot of light but only in a small area. I have a tri-LUXs that is more a flood than spot, 240 lumens maybe and that is OK. I have a WA u-1160 bulb in a magcharger, great improvement, isn't that 300+ lumens (stock is 195)? Too many popular and well suited lights just do not have the brilliance neccessary when challenging buildings or vehicles at gun point in the dark and yet they are marketed as tactical. I wanted a good flashlight and started looking and lurking here a year ago. That is how I ended up on CPF and now supply a few lights part time to my associates. Just about the time we had a good numer of our own lights to swear by the "Organization" issued us Glock lights. Boy, did that solve the problem and now for us the discussion is over on which light we find best suited. When I park the issued weapon I grab a Colt Gov. .45 ACP, SS, series 80, circa 1985, and strap on the Golston if I hear a bump in the night.

Ironhog81,

Sorry to mention that the "Reverse Harries" position is an entirely different one.
Pehaps this picture off Middlebrooks of Tactical Forums will help.

THE REVERSE HARRIES

Of course it can illuminate the sights and the target all at once very well, specially useful with low sights of old pistols.
Best regards

I was refering to BigBaller's post.

If you follow the link it also showed other types and

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=153616&highlight=surefire+centurion

you will see he was using original Harries.
I must have got wording wrong because your post shows the proper reverse Harries. I think this is one of the best to use as I described, coming up with the weapon from underneath. A lot better than the original "FBI" arm out to the side we started with years ago.
Today we have night sights and night vison.
Definite progress.