How many lumens for caving?

Hi everyone!

I know this has probably been hit on previously here @ CPF but the search function only brings up headlamp discussions.
I occasionally get invites to explore caves near the Arkansas river with my friends in Muskogee, Oklahoma. The caves aren't really mapped out and are basically untouched inside..i'm pretty sure not many people go in them.
Anyhoo, I recall from childhood that it's perfectly pitch black as hell once you crawl up in a cave so in theory it shouldn't require TOO many lumens to do the job, right? Would the 3-5 lumen output of the Arc AAA-P / A2 aviator LED be enough light?
Any comments appreciated,..I know I should use a headlamp but I'm a redneck.
Batman

I'm not very experienced as far as caving goes, but I do go "mining" in the Mojave when I can. It is black-dark in the mines, as I expect it is in natural caves, but it seems that even in this environment I just can't get enough lumens: My carry light of choice is the Thor Cyclops! Might seem like overkill for such a dark environment, but it's great for illuminating things that stick out of the ceiling of tunnels (which can be real headknockers even at walking speed).

Also, the Thor is good for spotting down long shafts, drops, etc. It might be too cumbersome for a real hard-core caver though. But that huge, bright flood light is hard to beat.

I also bring a few backup lights; Surefire U2 clipped to my vest (which makes a great walking light due to its floody nature), Surefire M4 and 6P on my belt as further backup. The M4 is bright, but a bit too spotty for my liking when it's the only source of light.

Definitely get a headlamp, that attaches to your caving helmet. People who use handheld flashlights are called "flashlight cavers" and it is a perjorative. See http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos/sis/slang.html where it describes "speleobopper" as slang for a flashlight caver and cross-references to "dufus". These guys are harsh

When going caving sooner or later you will compare you light against a carbide lamp. Maybe it was your previous lamp, or there could be over there a guy using one, but the comparative is unavoidable.
Probably a Photon Freedom is enought to get out of any cave, but you would like to see as much as possible, especially when you enter large areas, you would like to see all that pretty and strange things that thousand years and waterdrops have constructed. And in that case you need more light.

We have done a lot of prototypes, and w ethink that the only configuration that won't make you miss a carbide lamp is a LSIII driven at 900 mA, with a HIGH QUALITY reflector.

Javier

Light colored walls?
Dark colored walls?
Wet walls?

All of those things will have an affect on how well you see in a cave, especially with LED's.

In a pitch black cave with dry light colored walls and no steep dropoffs, you could probably actually navigate pretty well with only 1 lumen.

Barbarin said:

When going caving sooner or later you will compare you light against a carbide lamp. Maybe it was your previous lamp, or there could be over there a guy using one, but the comparative is unavoidable...the only configuration that won't make you miss a carbide lamp is a LSIII driven at 900 mA, with a HIGH QUALITY reflector.

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Hey Barbarin.

I agree with you that there are very few electric lights that produce as good a quality and quantity of light as a good carbide lamp. I was impressed with the PT Apex, until I compared it side by side against an humble carbide lamp.

The color and amount of usable flood from a carbide is just so much better that there's no comparison. I'm still toying with the idea of getting an Apex for convenience of use, but it really can't compete with a carbide for usable flood.

I no longer do enought caving to justify buying a Stenlight, but I've read that they are nearly as good as a carbide for up close, and of course they have superior throw.

This is hard to say.

Once you are night adapted an Arc AAA or AA is actually pretty bright,
and you COULD find your way in and out with it.
But, you wont actually see much with it.
You dont want to use some 500+ lumen light, you will just kill your night vision.
Only the large rooms, large enough to park a house in, require alot of light.

You WILL want a headlamp!!!
You WILL want your hands free to crawl around and steaqdy yourself.

I think the Arcs make great backup lights, and neck lights.
I use a Streamlight 4AA Luxeon as a hand light.
and a Stenlight as a headlamp,
I would recommend the PT corona as a nice flood headlamp,
and I have an Apex on the way, I hear they are excellent.

~John

Are you buying an Apex when you already have an S7? I don't understand?
The S7 should outperform the Apex in just about every aspect I can think about (or read, since I don't own either). :sigh:

I have not seen a headlamp that will outperform the Stenlight.

I know that the Apex is not as good,
I bought it as a secondary headlamp,
I have been working around the house with dad, and I didnt have a nice headlamp to let him use, while I used the Sten.

Plus, I want to EDC it in my EDC bag,
thought that would be better than the heavier $$$$$ Sten.

~John

Do you want to make your own helmet light?

I can show you how to spend less than 40 US$ and make a wonderful one. In fact I made it just for one day, and I have been using it for a year. If so I wil post a tutorial on the "homemade" area.

One day we will manufacture our own headlamp, but meanwhile...

Javier

Barbarin said:

Do you want to make your own helmet light?

I can show you how to spend less than 40 US$ and make a wonderful one. In fact I made it just for one day, and I have been using it for a year. If so I wil post a tutorial on the "homemade" area.

One day we will manufacture our own headlamp, but meanwhile...

Javier

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Yes Javier, please show us your ideas about it

Best regards

____
Tom

OK, allow me two hours or so.

I started off with a Pelican 2630 Headlamp, which as a 1 watt Luxeon star. Most of the time, while moving through moderate sized caves, I kept it on "medium", not even using the full 1 watt. There were times I would jack it up to "high" to look around, and a few times I wished I had a bit more brightness, but it was otherwise a good choice for me for caving.

Now I have a Stenlight.

This is more complicated than I thought!

I haven't gone caving in many years, but back then I used a Petzel Mega headlamp. There might have been better lamps available, but my dad had to purchase 4 (for the whole family), as well as other gear, so we compromised. I think it was about $40.

Anyways, it ran on 3 C's, or 3 AA's if you used the integral brackets. It's not much brighter than a comparably powered Maglite (which is what, 15 or so lumens on fresh cells?). And it has the same general output curve. Which is to say, fairly dim most of the time. Even then, the output was still easily usable for 6-8 hours. It served me well for >50 caving trips.

You really won't need the high output once your eyes are dark adjusted. Unless you are trying to annoy the people you are caving with. :naughty:

As an aside, a headlamp will make you trip much safer and more enjoyable than a handheld light. I also strongly suggest a good helmet.

batman said:

...it's perfectly pitch black as hell once you crawl up in a cave so in theory it shouldn't require TOO many lumens to do the job, right? Would the 3-5 lumen output of the Arc AAA-P / A2 aviator LED be enough light?...

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As already stated, you need a headlamp, plus several other lights. Each person in a cave should have at least three light sources on them.

I wouldn't take a "nice" light in a most caves, such as a Surefire U2. Lights get banged up pretty badly in caves. If it's not a "crawling" cave, but just a walking cave, I guess you could take Surefire lights.

Although it's absolutely dark in caves, you often want plenty of light. Caves just absorb light. A variable output light is useful. Some suggestions:

- Photon or clone light on neck lanyard, in pocket or taped to your body. That's your backup.
- Arc AAA-P. That's your "dim" light.
- Your standard hand light: a Streamlight Propoly Lux 4AA or (better yet) 3C (inexpensive, tough, plastic, good run time). http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_propolyluxeon.htm http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_propoly_3c.htm
- Headlamp (many choices). I like the Streamlight Argo HP, which is lightweight, has two output levels and relatively powerful: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/streamlight_argohp.htm If I went caving much I'd get a Stenlight S7: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/stenlight_s7.htm

I guess my Boyscout leaders were all wrong...as i child I often went caving with these weirdos and we all used handheld lights such as minimags, etc.

batman said:

I guess my Boyscout leaders were all wrong...as i child I often went caving with these weirdos and we all used handheld lights such as minimags, etc.

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Tom Sawyer only used candles, so you don't need fancy equipment. Of course he got lost in the cave, so maybe having better equipment is a good idea.

Actually caving is serious business and many rescues have been necessitated by novices carrying inadequate lights. The rescues aren't always successful, so I recommend being well equipped.

I have explored many caves, (in my time) and my lights were a 2AA headlamp (rubber head strap) with standard bulb . Backup was a minimag with a headband.

NeedMoreLight said:

I have explored many caves, (in my time) and my lights were a 2AA headlamp (rubber head strap) with standard bulb . Backup was a minimag with a headband.

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After that you titled your name:" NeedMoreLight"


Best regards

_____
Tom