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Thread: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

  1. #1
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    Default Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise




    This shot was take from a another thread and is M3 cb 225 lumen

    Question 1...The head on this M3 is it classified as a mini turbo head?

    Or could you say you can get similiar results as the above pict with a 9p + A19 ext + P91= 200 lumen. ( -25 lumens compared to the M3CB)

    Question 2... regards M3CB , putting the 125 lumen on it will you get the same throw as the above pict with less light intensity?

    Question 3...Anychance some can take a pict of the M3cb whilst holding it so i can get a comarison of its size to a hand.

    Question 4. The picture above. Do you think its about 100 meters / 109 yards from the torch to the fence ?

    Thank you in advance Fuzzy





  2. #2

    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    I don't own an M3 (wish I did, probably my next purchase), so I can't answer most of these questions. For #3 though, visit SF's M3 page here:

    http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/.../403/sesent/00

    on the left hand side, there's a picture of an M3 in somebody's hand. you can click the picture for a larger version.

    Good luck w/ the rest of your questions.
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    Flashaholic* leukos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Question #1: Surefire makes Turboheads for various models, but the standard head is just standard, no "mini" that I am aware of. The M3T is the turbohead model (KT4). The standard M3 and M3cb have the same reflector and give the same beam. In my experience, the M3 reflector throws further than the P series reflectors chiefly because the M3 reflector is a larger and deeper design.

    Question #2: As with most SF lamp assemblies, the Low Output Lamp Assemblies (LOLA) have almost the same throw as the High Output Lamp Assemblies (HOLA) except that the HOLA will be almost twice the light output and have a much wider hotspot.

    Question #3: SCblur provided the link.

    Question #4: That's size15's picture from a comparison with the M3T, he could probably answer your question regarding the distance.
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    here is a M3T-CB with a U2 and A2



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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    nice comparison photos. the M3 doesnt look as big as i thought it would be.

    mark

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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Just for reference, I think the first picture is used to indicate the lamp performance. I think the actual light is an M900 foregrip (see the two navigation LED's on either side?) which takes the same 3-cell bulbs as the M3, but I think Al could verify that. I could be wrong.

    The 9P will take the P91, because it takes 3 batteries. The P91 is the HOLA for the 9P, no add-ons required. Putting an A19 on a 9P will take 4 batteries and will instaflash the P91 to a crisp.

    As far as similar performance, the M3 HOLA (MN11) will throw farther than the P91 as the M3's reflector is wider. Side by side on a white wall, you would probably see the M3 HOLA as a slightly smaller, but brighter spot as the P91.
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Might as well get the SureFire M3T or better yet, if wallet permitting—the SureFire M6!
    LUX'Ottica

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    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Lots of info here!

    In reality, the 9P with P91 and the M3 HOLA effectively throw the same amount of light. Side by side, on new 123's they are almost indistinguishable. I've had my kids hold the lights and switch them on and off while I try to guess, and I'm right just over half the time, not enough to make me think there is much difference. I can't tell much difference in throw, either. I think, and this is not Surefire confirmed, but others have said the same, that the lamps are the same. The SLIGHTLY larger M3 reflector might throw a little farther, but it isn't enough that most people would be able to tell.

    The M3 has a huge advantage in the shock isolation of the lamp.

    I have both, and in fact run the P91 off of 2 18650's, which improves the output slightly. In fact, it then appears slightly whiter to me than the M3 HOLA run off 3x123's.

    To answer your question, the fence does NOT appear to be 100 meters away in that picture, that seems like too much light on it for an M3 HOLA.

    In addition, that doesn't really look like an M3 to me, perhaps it is one of the weapon lights as mentioned.

    The LOLA will throw just as far as the HOLA, just not with as much light, so it appears to not throw as far. Effectively, that means a smaller spot on the object.

    Hope that helps.
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz
    This shot was take from a another thread and is M3 cb 225 lumen
    The SureFire model in the photo is an M900A which uses the same bezel and lamps as the M3, and the other photo (not shown in this thread) is of an M900AB which uses the same TurboHead bezel and lamps as the M3T.

    Note that the only difference between the standard (scalloped) and the -CB (crenelated) is the bezel rim style.

    Yes, the lamp used in the photo above is the HOLA (MN11)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz
    Question 1...The head on this M3 is it classified as a mini turbo head?
    No. It is the "Millennium Series Shock Isolated Bezel"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz
    Or could you say you can get similiar results as the above pict with a 9p + A19 ext + P91= 200 lumen. ( -25 lumens compared to the M3CB)
    As mentioned the M3 reflector is deeper and wider diameter and this results in a more intense beam but there is not a significant difference in throw. In my experience the MN10, MN11 & MN15 lamps are brighter and whiter for longer compared to the P90, P91 & N2 lamps.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz
    Question 2... regards M3CB , putting the 125 lumen on it will you get the same throw as the above pict with less light intensity?
    As mentioned the High Output Lamp Assemblies increase the size of the central beam and to a certain extent the brightness of the surround beam. The beam throw is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz
    Question 3...Anychance some can take a pict of the M3cb whilst holding it so i can get a comarison of its size to a hand.
    This photo from SureFire.com shows the standard M3 in hand. The M3-CB simply has a more aggressive bezel rim style (crenelated rather than scalloped).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fuzz
    Question 4. The picture above. Do you think its about 100 meters / 109 yards from the torch to the fence ?
    I don't know the distances in the photos since I did not take the photos. That said, hotlinking without permission is not allowed. You should ensure you have permission of the image host before hotlinking images as it increases bandwidth costs for the host. It's okay though this time. I give you permission to hotlink that image.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    I think, and this is not Surefire confirmed, but others have said the same, that the lamps are the same.
    This is completely not the case. The MN10 & MN11 along with the reflector were designed from scratch as the next generation on from the P90/P91.

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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    oops!
    Last edited by Knight Lights; 09-14-2006 at 01:45 PM.
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    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    That's interesting Al, because the lamps that I have are identical.

    The MN11 and P91 have exactly the same dimensions and exactly the same number of turns of wire in the filament, and wire that appears to be exactly the same diameter. (That one is a little hard to measure, since I don't have any burned out lamps to break and check!)

    I can believe that the reflector was redesigned, but from what I can see, the lamp is the same, or at least the ones I have are, and it stands to reason that is the case; Why design a new lamp for the relatively small quantities that the M3 uses in comparison to being able to use the same lamp for P91 and MN11 and MN16?

    As far as that goes, my MN11,MN16 and MN20 lamps appear to be identical too!

    It may be that I have old lamps, or that the production runs are so similar that they appear the same, but, boy, they sure look the same to me!!

    Bill
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    The MN10 and MN15 bulbs are the same. The MN11 and MN16 bulbs are the same.

    I don't suppose you can tell whether the composition of the tungsten or the pressure and mixture of gasses are the same for the P90/P91 & the MN10/MN11 ?
    My understanding is that its all in the detail.

    The MN20 is able to handle significantly different current/voltage conditions to the MN11/MN16 thought right?
    I've fried an MN16 in an M6 by accident and the MN20 in the M3T looks obviously underpowered.

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    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Al,

    I threw that MN11, MN16, MN20 in there as a sort of disclaimer that although they look alike, they might be different. The MN20 is certainly more robust, and needs at least 7.2 volts under load to run at it's best, while the MN16 likes 6.8.

    And of course no one with normal facilities can tell if the gas mix is different, or the tungsten composition is unique.

    My belief is simply that manufacturers tend to like to standardize as much as possible. Using that reasoning, IF you ALREADY have a very good 3 cell lamp that puts out over 200 lumens, why reinvent the wheel? Surefire is nothing if not a master at making the best out of what is available! When you LOOK at the lamps, and understand that they use the same power supply, and then understand that the outputs are essentially the same, it doesn't take much of a stretch to believe that they are using the same lamp.

    This is especially true if you try to optimize costs over lines. The P91 is used in several lights, the MN11/16 in only one. Economy of scale would say, "Use the same lamp in both!" Now Surefire may have decided there were advantages to not doing so, but it seems such a waste!

    I can understand that the M3 reflector is optimized to be more effective than the P91 reflector with the lamp, and thus I suspected that was the reason for the higher output numbers, but the lamps, they look the same to me! Obviously, they could be different, and for the reasons you mentioned.

    I've asked Surefire CS, but they act like it's some secret, or they tell me they don't know, (which they may not!).

    I'll certainly accept your word that they are different. You, at least, are in the place to know!

    Bill
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    The P91 is used in several lights, the MN11/16 in only one.
    Perhaps that's where I can help...

    The M3 bezel is used on many different models but only one flashlight.
    Here are the main ones:
    M500A Series Millennium Forend WeaponLights
    M96 Series Millennium Universal WeaponLights
    M900A Series Millennium Vertical Foregrip WeaponLights
    Millennium Series Shotgun Forend WeaponLights (using the LM90 Lamp Module)
    Millennium (M) Series Handgun WeaponLights (being phased out).

    These products sell like hot cakes (except the handgun version) to all sorts of users but not least to specialist Law Enforcement, Government and Military which are markets that SureFire improved its "9V" models for. Indeed I understand that flashlight production and assembly is often reduced so that the massive orders for these Millennium Series WeaponLights can be completed. After all there is a War on.

    Most 9V models sold now-a-days are going to be Millennium Series and use the "M3 bezel" (or the KT4 TurboHead which are the "AB" versions & M97 Series)

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    I've asked Surefire CS, but they act like it's some secret, or they tell me they don't know, (which they may not!).
    Well I certainly don't expect SureFire CS to have that level of detail. I'm not sure I even expect that from Tech Support. Engineering would know but then they aren't customer-facing like CS & TS are.

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    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Al,

    Thanks for the insight, I often forget the weapon lights!

    My Brother In Law served in Baghdad. Not a single unit was issued WeaponLights, they all had mounted M series lights, M2, M3 or M3T.

    But yes, I guess it is easy for Surefire to make enough, considering all those weapon lights use the same lamps!

    Thanks again!

    Bill
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    My Brother In Law served in Baghdad. Not a single unit was issued WeaponLights, they all had mounted M series lights, M2, M3 or M3T.
    One thing about the US Military is that is rather large with lots of different things going on. SureFire WeaponLights are certainly issued to a variety of US Military units.

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    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: Question regards Surefire M3 CombatLight .Please advise

    Understood!

    He did know of Special Forces units with WeaponLights.

    He was told that there simply weren't enough weapon lights to go around at the time and so they were issued the M series. His unit, in fact, swapped lights on and off, depending on who was on night time duty.

    Interestingly, especially in light of the recent problems with the Pelican M6, he used a personally owned M6 on his M4 so that he didn't have to swap. Most of the rest of his unit had SF M2's .

    He never had to replace a lamp in his Pelican, but he also carried an A2 the entire time and until a buddy lost it right before they returned, he didn't have to replace a lamp there either. Both lights had literally dozens, if not hundreds of cells through them in the 15 months he was there.

    Bill
    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
    Benjamin Franklin

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