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Thread: 911 Report - Page 318

  1. #1
    Flashaholic*
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    Default 911 Report - Page 318

    Don't know if this has been posted before on this forum.

    I'm about half the way through the 911 report.

    On page 318:

    "One clear lesson of September 11 is that individual civilians need to take responsibility for maximizing the probability that they will survive,should disaster strike.Clearly,many building occupants in the World Trade Center did not take preparedness seriously.
    Individuals should know the exact location of every stairwell in their workplace.In addition,they should have access at all times to flashlights,which were deemed invaluable by some civilians who managed to evacuate the WTC on September 11."

  2. #2

    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Very interesting. Thanks for sharing Randy. Just one more great reason to have a reliable EDC Flashlight.
    *PK etched SureFire Kroma Milspec (K2-RD/BL/IR/YG), *SureFire LumaMax L4 (McE2S 22 ohm Trim Tailcap), *SureFire Executive E2e, *MagLite Magcharger (quantity two), *3D MagLite Incandescent (color Black, quantity 2), *2D MagLite Incandescent (color Black), *2AA Mini MagLite LED (color Black), *2AA Mini MagLite Incandescent (color Black, quantity 3) and *Princeton Tec EOS (color Black)

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Not to minimize the usefulness of an EDC flashlight, but statistically you may be just as well-off having a bottle of Aspirin in case of a heart attack as you are having a flashlight in case of a terrorist attack

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Not a terrorist attack for sure, but had an incident that flashaholism helped at work a few weeks ago. There is construction of a supermarket behind our building and at that point it was 3 acres of sloped mud hill. It started raining like cats and dogs and the water started lapping at the back doors. We tried to dam it but the garage door was our downfall. As the water started creeping through the building, the power went out. That was good because if it hadn't there might have been an electrocution hazard with our machinery. But because I had sold 3 people there flashlights recently we were able do damage control. One of them is now a budding flashaholic(6 lights in about a month).

    Thanks CPF

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Not to minimize the usefulness of an EDC flashlight, but statistically you may be just as well-off having a bottle of Aspirin in case of a heart attack as you are having a flashlight in case of a terrorist attack
    I do happen to carry some aspirin with me normally, not exactly for that reason, it just happens to be multitasker. The report is not just for terrorism I think, their wording is in case disaster strikes. I would would think and hope most people will expand that into both major and minor disaster, man and nature made. A fire, earthquake, tornado, and many other major and minor emergency situations can can trap people just as easily, from which they need to rely upon themselves, at least in the short term, to escape and evade a situation. I beleive that is what they are trying to get across.

    I find it amazin how many people just stand in bunches when the lights go out and they have no lights on them. They do not even go in search of the cause, or find if there is a danger to them. Instead they rely upon others to find them and tell them if there is danger, and extrcate them from it. That I believe is the gist of the statement. I have encountered this time and again in work environments in manufacturing facilites, both on the manufacturing floor and professional offices.
    Lee

    Life is too important to be taken seriously: Oscar Wilde

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    At my day job the small family business, the fire marshall showed each and everyone the fire plan and had us sign off on it. My night job just mentions to leave the multi story building if the fire alarm sounds.

    I usually scout out the exits, bathrooms, break rooms, vending machines, etc.

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Hmmmm - moved to the Cafe - well - it was "on topic" when I started the thread.

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    It was funny or not funny really. On Friday I was in a meeting with 10 other people on the 8th floor and the fire alarm went off. We were meeting in a far interior conference room, so I got up and opened the door to the office suite that then lead out to the main exterior hall. Another member in our group asked where I was going. I stated “The fire alarm went off, that means we should leave the building.” She then asked "Wouldn't they announce if it were a real fire?" At that moment the lights went out. There was emergency lighting out in the office suite, but not in the conference room were we in. Someone else jokingly said, "I guess we better leave". I flipped on my light shined it up at the ceiling and made sure everyone could see to get out of the conference room and to the exterior hall. We all walked down and out of the building. I timed it, just over three minutes from the alarm to a safe distance.

    It turned out a fire sprinkler burst in a HVAC room, which tripped the mains for the building.

    But it is true that people need to take things a bit more seriously, not panic, but at least react. If I hadn’t been there I bet the lights would have went out and it would have been pitch black and I seriously doubt anyone else had a light on them. Although once they fumbled around and opened the door the emergency lighting would had likely been enough to let them see their way out, but the conference room was very dark without a light.

    What lights you ask? I had a Surefire E2 with a KL4 head and a 2 stage tail cap, basically an L2, but shorter and smaller. I also had a Fenix AAA and of course a Photon Freedom on my key chair.
    Brock - Used to have some web sites

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    Flashaholic* Sub_Umbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    "One clear lesson of September 11 is that individual civilians need to take responsibility for maximizing the probability that they will survive,should disaster strike.Clearly,many building occupants in the World Trade Center did not take preparedness seriously.
    Individuals should know the exact location of every stairwell in their workplace.In addition,they should have access at all times to flashlights,which were deemed invaluable by some civilians who managed to evacuate the WTC on September 11."
    That is such good advice.

    When I was a kid (a long time ago) I started sailing on big ships. I was lucky enough to get some very good advice early on. When I was 16 someone told me,

    "Whenever you get on a new ship, explore it. Then you have to learn to use what you found when you did your exploring -- you need to know it well enough that you may use any of it without having to think about it in an emergency. Here's a simple rule: for the first week or two you're on a new ship Never leave a compartment or area the same way you went into it. That will force you into a thoughtless understanding of your exit options in an emergency."

    It is brilliant advice, and it doesn't take much thought to see how many more situations it can apply to than just ships. If I had ever worked in the WTC I'd have taken a different emergency exit at the end of every day. I'm not just saying that. When I eventually ran into locked fire exits I would have screamed bloody murder. (Some of the fire doors were locked there on 9/11)

    If my protest had no effect I'd never go back -- screw their rinky-dink job. My life is worth too much and I've seen enough bad things happen to know that fire doors are actually there for a reason.

    As far as a flashlight in a terrorist attack goes, you bet, that's a no brainer. I've had enough close calls to know that if using a light can shave off just ten seconds of my exit time it may put real meaning into the phrase, "the quick and the dead." That's the way the real world works, some make it and some don't. I try real hard to not limit my future options.

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    According to the 9/11 Report, the only locked exits were those leading to the roof. There were no rooftop evacuation plans in place at the WTC. These were considered to be unrealistic and unworkable. Indeed, that proved to be true. The few choppers that were "on scene" all stated that rooftop evacuation would have been impossible - the smoke, heat, flames, and rooftop design would have made any attempts treacherous at best, and futile given the amount of individuals and few chopper assetts. So - exits leading to the rooftops were always locked due to "no evacuation plans" and for security reasons. You wouldn't want someone up there releasing gases, chemical agents, or other bad stuff into the ventilation system of a building that size. I believe the South Tower did have a rudimentary Heliport, but it was not very substantial and was never "certified" by the FAA or any other "official" organization due to its rudimentary nature.
    One problem noted which underscores the need to know the layout AHEAD OF TIME was the design of the evacuation stairways. They were not "continuous", in that after descending an unsepcified number of floors, you would need to go through another access point (door) to get to the stairways that led further down. The 9/11 report did not specify how often this would occur during the descent, but it's most definitely something that you would need to know about, practice using, and NOT SOMETHING YOU WOULD WANT TO TRY AND LEARN ABOUT OR EXECUTE IN THE DARK!!
    Another thing that may have led to the "locked exit doors" report was that some of the doors were blocked by debris/damage. There were reports from some survivors that they encountered this problem and basically muscled/forced the doors open.

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    *Flashaholic* PlayboyJoeShmoe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    We've been through this before. I don't work in, and rarely travel to any place where lights out would much more than inconvenient...

    I still ain't going without a light! (and a knife or two!)
    http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2640/usflaghalfmastmdwht.gif

    PBJS



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    Flashaholic* Sub_Umbra's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    If they are Fire Exits they need to be openable. That is why they call them Fire Exits. If they cannot be opened they are not legal Fire Exits. These ratonalizations won't cut it at all with me if I have to go into a building. If the Fire Marshal calls it a Fire Exit it had damn better be one. Otherwise they can just change their fire plan legally.

    As far as cretinous security apes mumbling about something being locked, "Fa security reasons," that doesn't cut it either. Graveyards are filled with people who died in fires in buildings open to the public because some idiot with his knuckles dragging on the ground followed his bosse's stupid orders and just locked the Fire Exits "Fa security reasons."

    EDIT: Comment removed because sometimes I type before I think.

    If you're ever in a building where someone tells you that a Fire Exit is locked for security reasons -- you need to get out of there.

    I'm proud to say that on numorous occasions I've cost numorous scumbags like that a great deal of money -- AND they still had to change their ways in addition to the fines.
    Last edited by Sub_Umbra; 09-17-2006 at 07:51 PM.

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    they just needed a few thousand simple parachutes at the roof... simple, cheap (comparatively) and effective.


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    Flashaholic PJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    A little off the topic of flashlights but I heard that one of the factors slowing people on fire stairs is high-heel and slip-on shoes. I think it was a quote from the Dr. Dean Adell show, I'm not sure. Basically people trying to keep their shoes on jammed up the stairwells.

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    an escape chute:

    Ingstrom Escape Chute

    A range of escape chutes especially suited to mass escape from high rise buildings and other high positions.

    * Single escape chute: For evacuation from highrise buildings or from places that you can not reach with a skylift or ladder.
    * Multi entry chute: Usually built in on the design stage of the building, and is situated inside a fireproofed shaft with fire resistant doors. This system allows you to enter the chute from each floor.
    * Moveable Chute: Fire brigades are one of the biggest customers for this type of chute. Ingstrom escape chutes are approved for use on most of the worlds skylifts and ladders.





    http://www.lymore.com/
    Last edited by TedTheLed; 09-18-2006 at 10:00 AM. Reason: added info

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    Flashaholic Dr Jekell's Avatar
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    Sigh Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1959
    I find it amazing how many people just stand in bunches when the lights go out and they have no lights on them. They do not even go in search of the cause, or find if there is a danger to them. Instead they rely upon others to find them and tell them if there is danger, and extricate them from it. That I believe is the gist of the statement. I have encountered this time and again in work environments in manufacturing facilities, both on the manufacturing floor and professional offices.
    I believe the term for this is Sheeple. (Sheep/People)

    http://www.macmillandictionary.com/N...06-sheeple.htm

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    I hope to be able to cite this particular paragraph if ever questioned about my flashlights by TSA when flying.

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    A little off the topic of flashlights but I heard that one of the factors slowing people on fire stairs is high-heel and slip-on shoes. I think it was a quote from the Dr. Dean Adell show, I'm not sure. Basically people trying to keep their shoes on jammed up the stairwells.
    And that's a good enough reason to ban both those types of shoes in high-rise workplaces, on the subways, or pretty much any place with stairs. Given the posture problems high-heeled shoes are known to cause it's amazing anyone even still wears them.

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    Flashaholic* KC2IXE's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    The fire staircases MOSTLY worked on 9/11 (unlike 1993). The interrupted designe did NOT cause big problems. The SIMPLE proof of this is that in general, almost everyone below the aircraft strike zone got out (look up the numbers) - Below the strike zone, it was the first responders, folks in elevators, some of the PANY folks who stayed behind to try and help, others who stayed (Rick Rescorla and his team) and a few folks who could not walk - basically, it numbers around 100 between the two buildings if I remember correctly

    Above the impact zone, I think the number of survivors is FOUR

    The BIGGEST problem in the stairwell design is it had sheetrock walls, and they were taken out by the airplanes. The survivors from above talked about at least one totally blocked stairwell, and the one they DID get through, they had to climb through wreckage

    NYC building code USED to require that the emergency stairs have at least cement block walls, but the WTC was NOT built to NYC fire code!

    Before that, the fire code was even stricter - above a certain height, your building had to have a "fire tower" (70 Pine st has one) - This is a fire staircase - encloses, and actually physically seperate from the main building. At 70 Pine, you go out a door, across a walkway, and through a 2nd door into the stair well - that walkway is open to the air - smoke and flame CAN'T make it across that 10-15 ft gap. Oh and BTW, there is also an "in building" fire stair too

    Maybe we need to go back to requiring a fire tower

    Edited to fix the spelling of Rick Rescorla's name

    BTW He is the soldier pictured on the cover of "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young"
    Last edited by KC2IXE; 09-18-2006 at 05:28 AM.

  20. #20
    Flashaholic RebelRAM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    That's the thing that just totally baffles me, people that wear shoes like that on a daily basis. You read most stuff on the gov disaster websites and they all recommend "sturdy shoes" Where I live, it's not uncommon to see people wearing flip-flops year round, both men and women. I just don't get it! My wife is bad about wearing sandals all the time. She has sprained her ankle several times and I have told her and her dad has told her to wear shoes with ankle support. But she doesn't listen, says shoes like that don't go with her outfits. *sighs* Maybe eventually she'll wise up.

    I wear boots all the time. For many reasons. I work around heavy computer equipment, I value my toes. I have been caught outside around town in total downpours, I hate wet feet, so I require my boots to be waterproof or have Gore-tex. Also if I were to ever encounter a disaster where I had to walk home rather than go in my car, I'd want some comfortable shoes to make the trip. My wife says I have no fashion sense... I'll agree, but I'm comfortable and ready for anything!

  21. #21
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Way back when I was working in a library (think old building, 12 stores plus a 5 story bell tower on top of that, filled with a couple of million books -- basically 2 million pieces of dried wood) the alarms used to go off fairly regularly due to tests, drills, and actual emergencies. I had one of those new and very fancy little flashlights called a MiniMag that I had to use often. The building was a lightning magnet and was struck at least once a year. I once saw a thermal sensor head literally melted into a puddle by a lightning strike but it still had done its job and set off the alarm.

    At any rate, during a storm there's a huge BOOM! followed by the fire alarm, and then darkness, and it happens just about as fast as it takes to read this. I knew exactly what was going on.

    The floor I am on at the time is windowless and with very little emergency lighting. Since I am on the fire squad, I know the building well, know the response time and level of the fire department (several minutes but with a heck of a lot of trucks -- it's the number one rated fire response building in the city at the time), and know how purely stupid the people at the university are in any sort of trouble.

    So, there's a bunch of about ten people staring at an emergency exit, but no one moves toward the door. They're just standing and staring. Then, like now, I am the only one with any sort of a flashlight. I tell them, "Just push the bar and go. There's an alarm on the door but that's OK." "Oh, no. We can't do that, can we?," they ask and still just stand there. After about three seconds I whack the bar and set off the door alarm (loud and really nasty sound), and say, "There, it works that way. The exit is two flights up. Go. We're wasting time." No one moves. OK, this is getting annoying, so I scream as loud and wild as I can, "YEEE HAW!!! GET ALONG LIL' DOGGIES!" and shove and we're finally moving.

    There was a very, very small fire that was out before the fire department arrived, but in a "real" fire those people would have stayed there until they died because they could not think or move for themselves.

    In another lightning strike in the same building I was in the front of the building keeping people from coming back in and waiting for the fire department to show up. A grad student walks in, and I tell him we're closed due to an emergency. "It's OK, I've got my office keys," he says. Huh? Did he really just say that? I tell him, "No, you don't understand, the building actually is on fire." He says, "Don't be an a**hole. I'm going upstairs to my office," and tries to walk past me. Now I'm pissed. I guess that by standing toe to toe with him and my nose about an inch away from his I got his attention. It finally really sinks in when Security and the fire department walk in about then. I told him, "No, you're not going in because I don't like the stink of burnt flesh, do not do identifications of charred corpses, and I hate ****in' paperwork." He still cusses us out. They had to threaten him with arrest to get the idiot to finally leave. The fireman thought my response to him was just about perfect, but wondered what would have happened if this genius had a few more people with him and there was a serious fire? "Sheep barbecue," I told them.

    I'm definitely no hero, but I've got training and tools to use in a bad situation, and am willing to use them. But it would greatly peave me to find myself injured or killed trying to save the life or lives of complete idiots. The 911 Report reaffirmed somethings I already knew -- those with the tools and the training stand a better chance of surviving, but will probably get hurt or killed trying to save those who don't have a clue.

    Here's how I sum up recommendations from the report on the attack on the WTC: Be prepared. Think. Be aware. Act. Be firm. Move. Be strong.
    "Show them a light, and they'll follow it anywhere..."

  22. #22
    Flashaholic C4LED's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Quote Originally Posted by KC2IXE
    The fire staircases MOSTLY worked on 9/11 (unlike 1993).
    Glow tape was also placed in the stairwells as a result of one of the lessons from 1993.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* KC2IXE's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Quote Originally Posted by C4LED
    Glow tape was also placed in the stairwells as a result of one of the lessons from 1993.
    And better lighting, and a whole BUNCH of improvements that probably saved a heck of a lot of lives that day

    In 1993 the stairwells were full of smoke. I know someone who was in the building for both events...

    If you live in NYC, there is a very good chance you know someone who was in the building for 9/11 (from what I've heard, close to 100%) and in fact, I've heard that the majority of the people in NYC were aquainted with at least one person who died that day. I had someone from my High School class, and an ex-coworker not make it out (the HS classmate I had not seen since HS, and the coworker in about a year) - My kid's Nanny's future F-I-L made it out by luck. The 1st plane few through his office window, but he was 30 floors below getting a cup of coffee

    edit: Corrected 3 to 30 - typo
    Last edited by KC2IXE; 09-18-2006 at 11:34 AM.

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    You all know the flashlight suggestion is just common sense. Not just for terrorist attacks, for many small emergency situations. As are a knife, where you can carry them. I live in Michigan. My vehicle has a blanket, shovel, flashlight and many other small items in it. I know most people don't do that. But it really is common sense. My oldest son just turned 16 and this will be his first winter. He's already gotten an earfull about having what he needs in there. He understands. He's a boy scout, almost Eagle. So I don't have to ask him twice about that motto I've heard somewhere before,,, Be ????
    Bright Scouter
    Del

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Ah, but common sense, and likewise common courtesy, do not seem to be too common, do they? How many (few?) people do each of us know that could have stood a chance of saving themselves or others at the WTC if they had been there?
    "Show them a light, and they'll follow it anywhere..."

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    why don't the buildings have escape chutes? (see my previous post)

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    Flashaholic pianoman's Avatar
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    "9/11 Commission-Page 318" Good idea for a CPF hat or t shirt?!

  28. #28

    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    On this subject, do you think that there was an increase in flashaholicism since 9/11? To me the idea of EDCing a flashlight is about having at least some possibility of control of my destiny, in a chaotic and threatening environment, both on that day and in anticipation of future days like it.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    How do the escape chutes slow down the people inside it? If not, then you'd either be shot out of the end like a cannon or splatter yourself on the ground not much slower than if you'd jumped off the building from 100 floors up.
    Bill

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    Default Re: 911 Report - Page 318

    Quote Originally Posted by Billson
    How do the escape chutes slow down the people inside it? If not, then you'd either be shot out of the end like a cannon or splatter yourself on the ground not much slower than if you'd jumped off the building from 100 floors up.
    friction of chute material on body slows descent.

    ..sure glad the Ingstrom chute company thought of that splatter possibility ahead of time.

    Too bad my friend Cathy didn't have one that morning on the 84th floor of the WTC...

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