911 Report - Page 318

randyo

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Don't know if this has been posted before on this forum.

I'm about half the way through the 911 report.

On page 318:

"One clear lesson of September 11 is that individual civilians need to take responsibility for maximizing the probability that they will survive,should disaster strike.Clearly,many building occupants in the World Trade Center did not take preparedness seriously.
Individuals should know the exact location of every stairwell in their workplace.In addition,they should have access at all times to flashlights,which were deemed invaluable by some civilians who managed to evacuate the WTC on September 11."
 

Sixpointone

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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing Randy. Just one more great reason to have a reliable EDC Flashlight.
 

Loomy

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Not to minimize the usefulness of an EDC flashlight, but statistically you may be just as well-off having a bottle of Aspirin in case of a heart attack as you are having a flashlight in case of a terrorist attack ;)
 

Pumaman

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Not a terrorist attack for sure, but had an incident that flashaholism helped at work a few weeks ago. There is construction of a supermarket behind our building and at that point it was 3 acres of sloped mud hill. It started raining like cats and dogs and the water started lapping at the back doors. We tried to dam it but the garage door was our downfall. As the water started creeping through the building, the power went out. That was good because if it hadn't there might have been an electrocution hazard with our machinery. But because I had sold 3 people there flashlights recently we were able do damage control. One of them is now a budding flashaholic(6 lights in about a month).

Thanks CPF
 

Lee1959

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Not to minimize the usefulness of an EDC flashlight, but statistically you may be just as well-off having a bottle of Aspirin in case of a heart attack as you are having a flashlight in case of a terrorist attack
wink.gif

I do happen to carry some aspirin with me normally, not exactly for that reason, it just happens to be multitasker. The report is not just for terrorism I think, their wording is in case disaster strikes. I would would think and hope most people will expand that into both major and minor disaster, man and nature made. A fire, earthquake, tornado, and many other major and minor emergency situations can can trap people just as easily, from which they need to rely upon themselves, at least in the short term, to escape and evade a situation. I beleive that is what they are trying to get across.

I find it amazin how many people just stand in bunches when the lights go out and they have no lights on them. They do not even go in search of the cause, or find if there is a danger to them. Instead they rely upon others to find them and tell them if there is danger, and extrcate them from it. That I believe is the gist of the statement. I have encountered this time and again in work environments in manufacturing facilites, both on the manufacturing floor and professional offices.
 

cobb

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At my day job the small family business, the fire marshall showed each and everyone the fire plan and had us sign off on it. My night job just mentions to leave the multi story building if the fire alarm sounds.

I usually scout out the exits, bathrooms, break rooms, vending machines, etc.
 

Brock

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It was funny or not funny really. On Friday I was in a meeting with 10 other people on the 8th floor and the fire alarm went off. We were meeting in a far interior conference room, so I got up and opened the door to the office suite that then lead out to the main exterior hall. Another member in our group asked where I was going. I stated "The fire alarm went off, that means we should leave the building." She then asked "Wouldn't they announce if it were a real fire?" At that moment the lights went out. There was emergency lighting out in the office suite, but not in the conference room were we in. Someone else jokingly said, "I guess we better leave". I flipped on my light shined it up at the ceiling and made sure everyone could see to get out of the conference room and to the exterior hall. We all walked down and out of the building. I timed it, just over three minutes from the alarm to a safe distance.

It turned out a fire sprinkler burst in a HVAC room, which tripped the mains for the building.

But it is true that people need to take things a bit more seriously, not panic, but at least react. If I hadn't been there I bet the lights would have went out and it would have been pitch black and I seriously doubt anyone else had a light on them. Although once they fumbled around and opened the door the emergency lighting would had likely been enough to let them see their way out, but the conference room was very dark without a light.

What lights you ask? I had a Surefire E2 with a KL4 head and a 2 stage tail cap, basically an L2, but shorter and smaller. I also had a Fenix AAA and of course a Photon Freedom on my key chair.
 

Sub_Umbra

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"One clear lesson of September 11 is that individual civilians need to take responsibility for maximizing the probability that they will survive,should disaster strike.Clearly,many building occupants in the World Trade Center did not take preparedness seriously.
Individuals should know the exact location of every stairwell in their workplace.In addition,they should have access at all times to flashlights,which were deemed invaluable by some civilians who managed to evacuate the WTC on September 11."
That is such good advice.

When I was a kid (a long time ago) I started sailing on big ships. I was lucky enough to get some very good advice early on. When I was 16 someone told me,

"Whenever you get on a new ship, explore it. Then you have to learn to use what you found when you did your exploring -- you need to know it well enough that you may use any of it without having to think about it in an emergency. Here's a simple rule: for the first week or two you're on a new ship Never leave a compartment or area the same way you went into it. That will force you into a thoughtless understanding of your exit options in an emergency."

It is brilliant advice, and it doesn't take much thought to see how many more situations it can apply to than just ships. If I had ever worked in the WTC I'd have taken a different emergency exit at the end of every day. I'm not just saying that. When I eventually ran into locked fire exits I would have screamed bloody murder. (Some of the fire doors were locked there on 9/11)

If my protest had no effect I'd never go back -- screw their rinky-dink job. My life is worth too much and I've seen enough bad things happen to know that fire doors are actually there for a reason.

As far as a flashlight in a terrorist attack goes, you bet, that's a no brainer. I've had enough close calls to know that if using a light can shave off just ten seconds of my exit time it may put real meaning into the phrase, "the quick and the dead." That's the way the real world works, some make it and some don't. I try real hard to not limit my future options.
 

randyo

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According to the 9/11 Report, the only locked exits were those leading to the roof. There were no rooftop evacuation plans in place at the WTC. These were considered to be unrealistic and unworkable. Indeed, that proved to be true. The few choppers that were "on scene" all stated that rooftop evacuation would have been impossible - the smoke, heat, flames, and rooftop design would have made any attempts treacherous at best, and futile given the amount of individuals and few chopper assetts. So - exits leading to the rooftops were always locked due to "no evacuation plans" and for security reasons. You wouldn't want someone up there releasing gases, chemical agents, or other bad stuff into the ventilation system of a building that size. I believe the South Tower did have a rudimentary Heliport, but it was not very substantial and was never "certified" by the FAA or any other "official" organization due to its rudimentary nature.
One problem noted which underscores the need to know the layout AHEAD OF TIME was the design of the evacuation stairways. They were not "continuous", in that after descending an unsepcified number of floors, you would need to go through another access point (door) to get to the stairways that led further down. The 9/11 report did not specify how often this would occur during the descent, but it's most definitely something that you would need to know about, practice using, and NOT SOMETHING YOU WOULD WANT TO TRY AND LEARN ABOUT OR EXECUTE IN THE DARK!!
Another thing that may have led to the "locked exit doors" report was that some of the doors were blocked by debris/damage. There were reports from some survivors that they encountered this problem and basically muscled/forced the doors open.
 

PlayboyJoeShmoe

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We've been through this before. I don't work in, and rarely travel to any place where lights out would much more than inconvenient...

I still ain't going without a light! (and a knife or two!)
 

Sub_Umbra

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If they are Fire Exits they need to be openable. That is why they call them Fire Exits. If they cannot be opened they are not legal Fire Exits. These ratonalizations won't cut it at all with me if I have to go into a building. If the Fire Marshal calls it a Fire Exit it had damn better be one. Otherwise they can just change their fire plan legally.

As far as cretinous security apes mumbling about something being locked, "Fa security reasons," that doesn't cut it either. Graveyards are filled with people who died in fires in buildings open to the public because some idiot with his knuckles dragging on the ground followed his bosse's stupid orders and just locked the Fire Exits "Fa security reasons."

EDIT: Comment removed because sometimes I type before I think.

If you're ever in a building where someone tells you that a Fire Exit is locked for security reasons -- you need to get out of there.

I'm proud to say that on numorous occasions I've cost numorous scumbags like that a great deal of money -- AND they still had to change their ways in addition to the fines.
 
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carbine15

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they just needed a few thousand simple parachutes at the roof... simple, cheap (comparatively) and effective.
 

PJ

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A little off the topic of flashlights but I heard that one of the factors slowing people on fire stairs is high-heel and slip-on shoes. I think it was a quote from the Dr. Dean Adell show, I'm not sure. Basically people trying to keep their shoes on jammed up the stairwells.
 

TedTheLed

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an escape chute:

Ingstrom Escape Chute

A range of escape chutes especially suited to mass escape from high rise buildings and other high positions.

* Single escape chute: For evacuation from highrise buildings or from places that you can not reach with a skylift or ladder.
* Multi entry chute: Usually built in on the design stage of the building, and is situated inside a fireproofed shaft with fire resistant doors. This system allows you to enter the chute from each floor.
* Moveable Chute: Fire brigades are one of the biggest customers for this type of chute. Ingstrom escape chutes are approved for use on most of the worlds skylifts and ladders.



singleNY.gif


http://www.lymore.com/
 
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Dr Jekell

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Lee1959 said:
I find it amazing how many people just stand in bunches when the lights go out and they have no lights on them. They do not even go in search of the cause, or find if there is a danger to them. Instead they rely upon others to find them and tell them if there is danger, and extricate them from it. That I believe is the gist of the statement. I have encountered this time and again in work environments in manufacturing facilities, both on the manufacturing floor and professional offices.

I believe the term for this is Sheeple. (Sheep/People)

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/New-Words/030606-sheeple.htm
 

taiji

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I hope to be able to cite this particular paragraph if ever questioned about my flashlights by TSA when flying.
 

jtr1962

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PJ said:
A little off the topic of flashlights but I heard that one of the factors slowing people on fire stairs is high-heel and slip-on shoes. I think it was a quote from the Dr. Dean Adell show, I'm not sure. Basically people trying to keep their shoes on jammed up the stairwells.
And that's a good enough reason to ban both those types of shoes in high-rise workplaces, on the subways, or pretty much any place with stairs. Given the posture problems high-heeled shoes are known to cause it's amazing anyone even still wears them.
 

KC2IXE

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The fire staircases MOSTLY worked on 9/11 (unlike 1993). The interrupted designe did NOT cause big problems. The SIMPLE proof of this is that in general, almost everyone below the aircraft strike zone got out (look up the numbers) - Below the strike zone, it was the first responders, folks in elevators, some of the PANY folks who stayed behind to try and help, others who stayed (Rick Rescorla and his team) and a few folks who could not walk - basically, it numbers around 100 between the two buildings if I remember correctly

Above the impact zone, I think the number of survivors is FOUR

The BIGGEST problem in the stairwell design is it had sheetrock walls, and they were taken out by the airplanes. The survivors from above talked about at least one totally blocked stairwell, and the one they DID get through, they had to climb through wreckage

NYC building code USED to require that the emergency stairs have at least cement block walls, but the WTC was NOT built to NYC fire code!

Before that, the fire code was even stricter - above a certain height, your building had to have a "fire tower" (70 Pine st has one) - This is a fire staircase - encloses, and actually physically seperate from the main building. At 70 Pine, you go out a door, across a walkway, and through a 2nd door into the stair well - that walkway is open to the air - smoke and flame CAN'T make it across that 10-15 ft gap. Oh and BTW, there is also an "in building" fire stair too

Maybe we need to go back to requiring a fire tower

Edited to fix the spelling of Rick Rescorla's name

BTW He is the soldier pictured on the cover of "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young"
 
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RebelRAM

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That's the thing that just totally baffles me, people that wear shoes like that on a daily basis. You read most stuff on the gov disaster websites and they all recommend "sturdy shoes" Where I live, it's not uncommon to see people wearing flip-flops year round, both men and women. I just don't get it! My wife is bad about wearing sandals all the time. She has sprained her ankle several times and I have told her and her dad has told her to wear shoes with ankle support. But she doesn't listen, says shoes like that don't go with her outfits. *sighs* Maybe eventually she'll wise up.

I wear boots all the time. For many reasons. I work around heavy computer equipment, I value my toes. I have been caught outside around town in total downpours, I hate wet feet, so I require my boots to be waterproof or have Gore-tex. Also if I were to ever encounter a disaster where I had to walk home rather than go in my car, I'd want some comfortable shoes to make the trip. My wife says I have no fashion sense... I'll agree, but I'm comfortable and ready for anything!
 
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