Air-powered car?

Stainless

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Since no one else has responded yet, I'll post my two cents. I played with the idea of an air powered car 20+ years ago, but of course had no money to develope it. Neat idea, but i suspect that whatever is on the market will have a relatively SHORT driving range per fillup. Compressed air is, sadly, not a particularily dense method of storing energy. One major plus MIGHT be the ability to cover the roof with solar cells, and have it partially recharge while the owner is shopping, or working or whatever.
Please post if you find out more about this offering.
 

Darell

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Sounds better than gasoline, *except* for the infrastructure issues. Where will this car be operated? If in CA or AZ, she should seriously consider going full electric. The advantage is that everybody has electricity, but compressors are few and far between. It should require less electricity per mile to charge batteries than to compress an equal amount of air energy.
 

McGizmo

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What is the PSI of the stored air? I couldn't find any info. When I look at how many CFM's are required for an air drill or impact wrench I wonder about this car unless we're talking about some serious pressure! If that is the case, in a serious accident does this car go from auto to rocket?

I've heard stories of ruptured scuba bottles and acetylene bottles doing some very serious damage.
 

Wits' End

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The one big benefit in my limited understanding is the lack of weight of batteries; the air tanks are carbon fiber I believe. The range is supposed to be 120 miles (your mileage may vary
rolleyes.gif
). The car is supposed to "re-charge" with an on board compressor in 4-6 hours, or in about 5 minutes from a HIGH-powered compressor at a special station. My off-grid friend (not old girl friend) will set up an additional solar system for providing air to the car. I also wondered at the feasibility of this over electric but if all goes as planned the cost of car ($15 K) and solar equipment ($10-15 K) will be less than an electric vehicle. More input would be welcome, there are some aspects I hadn't thought about before.
 
D

**DONOTDELETE**

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I just had to register to respond to this thread. So in short my name is Brian and i am a cross over Bladeforums member.

Air Powered car.

In a way all engines are air powered, they use the heat of combustion to drive the expansion of gases to power the drive system. I beleive that there is a toy air plane called an "air hog" that features a pump charged "air Powered" engine.

My guess is that this is a terrible idea since to have the energy content of a gasoline powered car, the auto would have to have a very large tank, or store the air at extream pressure.

As far as alternitively powered cars go, i think any of them that require electrical input are silly, since for the most part those cars are powered by coal, and less efficiently to boot.
 

McGizmo

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Lizardking,
welcome. you will be meeting Darell real soon re: electric car. After dust settles enjoy
smile.gif
 

lambda

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I think you are all missing the point; this car is designed to be driven only by politicians, as only they can power it!
 

McGizmo

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Lamda, LOL, Good one! I guess critical mass wouldn't be any problem either?
grin.gif
 

Darell

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LizardKing:
As far as alternitively powered cars go, i think any of them that require electrical input are silly, since for the most part those cars are powered by coal, and less efficiently to boot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aya! I'm afraid our friend McGizmo was right. (Gee, Don, how'd you ever guess?) Here I am again. You've gone and dissed my mama.

This thread is about air-powered cars, and I'd like to learn more about them. I'll apologize early for my off-topic rant here, and hope that it can be continued here if you would like to continue the discussion.

The EV that my family drives 50 miles/day (on average) is the single most efficient full-function automobile (meaning it can carry full-sized humans at comfortable highway speeds for reasonable distances) on the planet. My particular car is NOT fueled by any energy that pollutes. My electricity comes from solar, wind, hydro and geothermal sources exclusively.

And to clear up any misconceptions, even if my car were powered by the US's dirtiest power plant, it would still be cleaner to operate than today's most efficient gasoline engines (hybrid cars). Many reasons for this: First off, producing gasoline uses roughly the same amount of electricity per mile driven as an EV. So once you've produced a unit of electricity (doesn't matter if it is dirty or clean electricity) you now have a choice: Power an EV down the road with it, or make gasoline. Makes EVs sound a bit cleaner now, doesn't it? The oil/gasoline industry is the single biggest consumer of electricity in the US. The next biggest reason EVs are so efficient is that they manage to put better than 90% of their stored power to the pavement. An internal combustion-engined car manages about 15% on a good day.

OK, against strong urges, I'll leave it there. I'd love to discuss this with you further if it interests you, but I really don't want to drag the focus of this thread away from the air-powered vehicles. Please see me here

Edit: Oh, and no, my EV engine is NOT air-powered. But I do like the AirHogs. They're great!
 

Silviron

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Just off the top of my head:

Compressing air requires about six to eight times as much energy as it would release (if I'm remembering correctly).

Enough air to move a "normal" metal frame-bodied car 5 miles at highway speeds would require an air tank about the size of a standard garbage truck if the pressure was kept at a level that would be reasonably "Safe" and approved for use on the public roads by the Department of Transportation.

Converting compressed air into motive power would require about a 20 speed gearbox, or an amazingly complicated torque converter. Compressed air will drive an turbine at super high RPM, but it has almost no torque. I suppose if you built your car out of silk and balsa wood it might work, or maybe a carbon fiber monocoque frame/body.

I have a neat little air powered "die grinder" that turns at 250,000RPM, and develops about 1/2 horsepower at that speed. It is one of the most efficient air motors I have ever heard of, and is a "dream" to work with; it chews through the hardest metal like butter, but has a very delicate touch.

However, it requires at least a 5 HP compressor to run it. It consumes 15 cubic feet of air per MINUTE at 120 PSI to reach full power.

The only way that I can see a compressed air powered vehicle operating for less than the cost of operating a 747 jet would be on the coast if you could harness ocean wave power to compress huge amounts of air. And that would cost millions or billions to build.
 

Silviron

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Looking at the mfgrs website leads me to only one real question:

What HAVE those guys been smoking?

Compressing their 3200 CF @ 4500 PSI in three minutes would require about 600 horsepower and consume about 450 kilowatts of energy at ~90% efficiency.-

You would also have to deal with a lot heat compressing that much that fast- My thermodynamics is pretty lousy- I'm guessing you would have to dissipate about 700 degrees (F) at peak. Of course you could harness that heat energy and use it to heat the compressing station during the winter, or convert it to steam and feed it back into the compressor mechanism. :)

Any physicists out there? Am I totally out of line in this?
 

Saaby

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I spent a little time wading through the vast ammount of knowledge Google newsgroups are and concluded this:

Nobody wants to believe in air cars.

But apparently somone who knows more then us does! So...lets let somone with deep pockets (Cooporations and Mr.Gates come to mind) try one out and then after they've given us full report...we'll try them out.

Remember that many things like compressed natural gas and even EVs were used for years in corporate fleets before consumers could even buy them, so...

A question though, why couldn't you use Oxygen as a fuel...isn't it extremly flamable, what if you could compress it and then spark it, not unlike todays ICE engines. I have always wondered this and because they are not doing it the reasoning is probably very simple...I just don't know it.

If the above question gets out of hand I will start a new thread on it, but seeing as nobody seems to know anything about air cars other than they are impossible...
 

Silviron

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Oxygen isn't flamable- it is what supports combustion. You need oxygen to let other things burn. Maybe you are thinking of hydrogen? That burns real good. (just ask the people on the Hindenburg)

(Chlorine gas also supports combustion, but not very well.)

Compressed air cars are not impossible- They would be very easy to build. They are just impractical. The energy going in is just so much more than the energy going out. Might as well build a steam car-.
 

Darell

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silviron:
They are just impractical. The energy going in is just so much more than the energy going out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So far, that's the same stumbling block with fuel cell vehicles. Very few people realize how much energy is involved in creating the "fuel." The answer is about twice as much as charging a battery. After the fuel is available, an FC car is very efficient. It's a EV, afterall.

If I remember correctly, three things are needed for combustion: Combustible fuel, O2 and an ignition source. Today's ICE cars ARE "burning" O2 along with the gasoline. The gasoline wouldn't burn otherwise.
 

Silviron

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Yeah, shining a battery powered Luxeon Star LED array on a Solar cell {only, no batteries) powered vehicle to make it go at night would be about as efficient as using compressed air.

Short of small, portable nuclear power plants, or something "new" that hasn't been discovered yet, electrical power generated by solar, geothermal, ocean wave and wind power is the only "really practical" source of motive power when (if) we use up all the petroleum. Coal is pretty energy dense, but making it clean burning enough to satisfy most "environmentally conscious" people is too expensive.

But until EVs become more convient and cheaper to purchase, OR solar cells double their efficiency and halve ther cost, I'm going to stick with good old internal combustion. I do believe that that day is coming though.

Who is John Galt?
 

Saaby

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Alright then...I based my assumptions purely on thost signs that say "Oxyen in use no sparks" and such.
 

Silviron

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Those signs are there because increased concentrations of oxygen allow flammable things (Hydrogen, cardboard, fabric, paper, lots of plastics etc.) catch fire easier and burn faster.

This belongs in the "things that go KaBoom!" thread, but you can create a devastatingly high explosive by aerating grease (even bacon fat) with oxygen (make sort of a foam).

But Darrel is right- you have to have three things to make a fire: oxygen, fuel and a "spark" (or any source of heat to make the fuel reach it's combustion point).
 

Saaby

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silviron:
But Darrel is right- you have to have three things to make a fire: oxygen, fuel and a "spark" (or any source of heat to make the fuel reach it's combustion point).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I knew that...I try to be a Boyscout (I'm in it for the flashlights...no just kidding) and if there's on thing any scout knows it's that you can never find spark when you need it
tongue.gif
.

Here's what gets me about these air cars...did you look at the models they're offering? a "Mini Van" is the smallest model, with 4 seats. Also, how are the headlights etc. powered? Some magical air battery?
 
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