My Helios, P1, XeRay pics & thoughts

Here are the pics I took from the second shootout.
All XeRay shots in this shootout were done with the good DL50 Bulb.
Camera- Canon S2IS set to f3.5 and 6" auto white balance and ISO.
The area we are shooting has a very slight incline for approximately 100 yards. It is level for around 20 yards after that and then drops very gradually from there toward the tree.


Polarion P1
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Helios
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XeRay DL50 tight focus Reflector 1
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XeRay DL50 tight focus Reflector 2
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Now for some more direct comparisons.


Polarion P1
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XeRay with Reflector 1 set to approximate P1 focus.

This is actually my favorite XeRay setting and wouldn't you know it, this reflector is not the one that comes with the light.
The P1 is a brighter in the fore ground in the photo and the XeRay is a brighter down field. When looking at these in person, it is really hard to tell a difference at this setting. However the cropped shots with their 6" exposure will show the down field difference.
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Helios
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XeRay with Reflector 2 set to approximate Helios focus
The Helios corona is still slightly wider. The XeRay lights brighter up close and to the sides at this setting. The Helios lights the tree and behind the tree better.
Once again, in person these are very close.

Now for the cropped shots.
The crops put the tree the lights are focused on to the left side, it is 146 yards away.
The rock above the tree is 312 yards away.
Watch the hill to the right of the rock and behind the tree as it gets brighter and dimmer.
The large tree to the right side of the photo is 132 yards away.
Watch how portions of this tree appear and disappear in the different photos
The vertical trunk in the background just right of center is 266 yards away.

Polarion P1
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XeRay P1 focus
Once again, I really like how this configuration put light down field. While keeping a wide beam.
Too bad it is the old reflector 1.
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XeRay Helios Focus
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Helios
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XeRay Reflector 1 tight focus.
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XeRay Reflector 2 Tight focus.

My personal thoughts.
In terms of light output all three lights are quite comparable to me. The 40 watt Helios and XeRay with reflector 2 do seem to put out a little more light then the 35 watt P1 and the XeRay with reflector 1. The key term here is a "little" more light when looking at these in person. The difference in light output is by no means overwhelming. The different shapes of the coronas and distribution of light within the hotspots, coronas, and amount and brightness of spill make beam shots very imprecise for determining accurately the total relative light output of each of these lights or any lights for that matter.
I would like to measure light output in my light box some time. It is not an integrating sphere but would be a better way of measuring total light output then comparing beam shots.
The 35 watt and 40 watt Polarion products are simplly more efficient at getting more lumens out of the front of their lights with there perfect little reflectors. This is why they hold their own against the XeRay in terms of light output.
The XeRay has the advantage of being adjustable.
I do not think anybody should be too focused on the stated bulb lumens by either manufacturer. Bulb lumens and what comes out of the front of any light are often drastically different.
The lights are what they are and their output has been clearly demonstrated in multiple shootouts.
Here are a couple of pics of the lights in Mr Ted Bear's car.



One of the XeRays had a 50 watt ballast and one had a 75 watt ballast.
That way we were able to switch reflectors and the one bulb between the two lights with minimal trouble.
To me personally, the XeRays are rather large clunky boxy looking lights compared to the Polarion offerings. I also prefer a balance between flood and throw for most uses. That is why the focusability of the XeRay lights would be lost on a person like me. If you look at the Polarion P1 in the overhead photo you will also see the square ballast box on the bottom. While the P1 is significantly smaller then the XeRays, only the Helios is missing that rectangular ballast box. I have stated numerous times that my primary criteria for a high end HID search light is packability. I want a 35+ watt packable light and the Helios is the most packable 35+ watt HID light that I know of on the market right now.

Somebody emailed me a while back and asked me why I thought the XeRays are the best HID lights under $1,000. I replied that I never said that.
I would like to clarify once again I consider the XeRay the most versatile in terms of bulb and ballast options. My favorite bulbs in the XeRay were bulb's I believe Xevision does not even offer that Mr Ted Bear got for another shootout. They were 35 watt bulbs driven at 50 watts. One was a Japanese bulb and one was a Phillips bulb that was in a white box and that is all I know about it.


I personally think in terms of fit and finish and compactness and light output to size of the unit and other nice features they have, the Polarion offerings are the best lights available at anywhere near their price points. Of course they do not have adjustable beams, so if you do not like the beam patterns they offer you will need to look elsewhere.
When I borrowed BVH's Helios for the 3rd shootout it was a few days before he was able to pick it back up. I just loved taking people out on my long dark street and saying watch this. I would then turn the Helios on and light up the street perfectly evenly and bright 368 yards to the garage at the end of my block. Nobody said $1,595 is too much once I explained all of it's features and that was before I found out it is waterproof to 265 feet not 165 feet.
You really have to see, handle, and use a Polarion Helios to appreciate what a nice light it is and just how compact and packable it is in relation to the other lights in this test.

In summary all of these are nice lights with different features that create advantages and disadvantages that will determine which light is most suitable to you. All of these lights will illuminate people farther then you will clearly be able to identify (sex, height, weight, race, etc.)without binoculars.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

I've come to the conclusion that these shootouts are similiar to the old days when we used to all go out and race our cars.... its a fun hobby.. fun to challenge and fun to soup up....

I think those are very good pics and very fair to all lights mentioned... It seems the capture of lumens presented is accurate... the intensity of the lumens of the Xeray do seem apparent as well as the pattern of the beam while in focus position into the distant. The Helios appears to be designed to use all its lumens on the ground if poss as it chops off the top part of its beam to conserve lumens to rather cast onto the bottom.

The "very" tricky part with the Xeray is the focus... its fair to focus out until you have a corona the same size as the Helios and use that as a comparison, but the trickier part is the "tight" focus setting.

As it has been mentioned in previous threads when the Xeray is focused as far as it will "physically" go to tightest, it cast a hot center spot and the overall beam is not uniform...... but if you back it off by physically turning the ring "back about one inch it actually gets tighter and the center hotspot goes away and blends into a much bigger hotspot gained from the added corona being brought in towards the center.. "This is my favorite setting".....

Its definately a matter of preference.. hence the beauty of focus... each light has obvious differences in ruggedness, looks, and usablity.

These discussions as well as the shootouts are very valuable.

I really think these forums inspires purchases that would otherwise never be considered... its the ultimate advertizing.... not so much to build up one and put down another like some kind of a campaign, but to show the idiosyncrasies, differences and general impressions by those who have tried as well as own these products.

Every kid on the block has fun thinking his car is the fastest, but as in lights, all have colors, comfort, looks, usability and "gas mileage" that differs from the other.

The ability to focus does make an attempt to take a normal light and extend its usability, but even with that, there is no perfect light. The beam itself may be a beauty, but it takes bulbs, ballast, cases, batteries , switches and all types of other issues to actually make up that light.. therein is the real meat and potatoes of why we buy a light.

If you just want a beam and nothing else matters, that too is preference, and those customers will go get a Costco hid or similiar for much cheaper.

I really do appreciate everyones efforts and spirit to make a fine product and be willing to painstakingly endure the gammet of questions and confusion... it really helps people such as myself who is basically a novice in the field to have the guts to spend so much money on a light.

I'm totally confident, without these shootouts and extensive comments this forum affords and all the nice people who helped me consider the options, I would have NEVER purchased such a light on my own accord.

Now that I have.. I really enjoy it and am thankful I found out about it.

Thanks for everyones work and efforts.. all these lights are extremely fine lights and anyone who owns any of them will be envied by others.

-A bit off topic.

But I wonder if the Helios can out throw a 15MCP spotlight? For me no flashlight in my collection can outhrow the 15MCP Thor. My Rayzorlite can't came close to the throwing capabilities to of the 15MCP. Although thats unfair because the Rayzor uses a stippled reflector, and I'm waiting for the SMO reflector.

Mr. Ted Bear sure has a lot of "cameo's" in this thread! Mtbkndad, thanks for posting your shots. Analysing them, for me, never gets old. Windy, I agree about the focus technique. When I first got my Xeray, i took it and the Helios out to the back yard and shined them each, one at a time, on a palmtree about 200' away and about 70 feet up. The crown of the tree, which is about 20' in diameter, was much brighter when illuminated with the Helios. I thought maybe the bulb needed to be broken in a bit because towards the bottom half of the glass lens, the color of the light output had a brownish tinge to it as compared to the top half. I thought I remembered Dan saying at one time, this was normal and it would go away after 25 or 50 hours of use.

A night or two after that, I was looking at the Xeray at my desk and noticed the focus adjustment screws. I decided to play around with the focus and was surprised when I discovered the focus ring was maxed out one direction and hense, as Windy said, it was not focused in the tightest spot condition it could be. After fine-tuning it, I replayed the palm tree shoot out and by far, the crown of the tree was much brighter when illuminated with the Xeray. But the trade off was that its corona was much smaller and less bright than the Helios.

I can't wait until Dan releases the 75 Watt ballasts!

NAW, I'll do a little shootout (no camera so no pics) of the Helios and my 15 MCP Cyclops/Thor with its 135 Watt Halogen lamp. I'll let you know which does better. However, I would guess that the Costco HID will outdo the Thor.

windstrings,

Thanks for the kind words. When we did the focus shots with the XeRay quite some time was spent with each going to the best point of focus then missing it in one direction, then missing it in the other, etc. until we were comfortable it was right.


NAW,
The 15MCP Thor has lots of throw, I am not sure if the Helios would out throw it.
I do know the Harbor Freight will out throw it quite easily and the Amondotech Illuminator will out throw it too, but by not as far as the Costco/Harbor Freight.
BVH and I may include a my 15 MCP Thor in our next canyon shoot.
The challenge there is the roughly 1/2 to 3/4 mile hike and the lights I will already be carrying. I may get one of those industrial wagons from Harbor Freight.
At some point I will need to stop buying things for these shoots so I can save for my Helios!
When the group buy was going on I had to make a choice between a Helios or my annual attendance at MBC in Colorado. MBC won.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

I don't know about the 15mcp.. but My Xeray 50 totally consumed a 10mcp. You couldn't even see the beam when the Xeray overlayed it and the throw was far surpassed by the Xeray.... Unless this guys batteries were near dead, I can't imaging a 15 would be that much better.... even 50% more lumens couldn't have bailed out that light...

It is possible the guys battery was down.. an HID wouldn't have made a difference with a low battery since the power is constant, but I believe those in the Thor are Halogen?.... so who knows.

I haven't seem a shootout with the Thor verses the Helios or Xeray... I always thought they were in differenct classes so I didn't bother worrying about it.

If you look at this original shootout and see how much dimmer the Thor is than most of the other lights, you will see why another 50% more lumens still should not make the difference... I just don't have the lumens.

Windstrings,

The 15 MCP Thor has a really tight focus that throws much better then the 10MCP Thors.

Here are numbers that are lux readings at 37.5 feet that I did for the Amondotech Illuminator announcement thread. The Illuminator was the original prototype I had with the 6,000K bulb, the 4,200K bulb does much better outside. I have never done a 37.5 foot lux reading with it.
These numbers will show you just how much better the 15 MCP Thor throws then the 10 MCP units.


Costco HID (good focus) --7590
Costco HID (okay focus) --5650
Amondotech Illuminator --3401
15 MCP Thor Magnum ----3326
10 MCP Thor Focused -----1567
10 MCP Thor Stock -------1486
Dorcy 3 MCP --------------1053

Remember throw and lumens are two different things. The problem with both the Costco/Harbor Freight and the Thor 15 MCP is that their hotspots are so tiny they tend to brightly illuminate part of an object as opposed to the whole object unless it is real far away.

Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

Interesting.. that Costco HID has a lumen rating approaching that of a BB and even with the OK focus matches the Xeray 50W, yet if you look at the shootout link I was referencing.. the Costco HID didn't look too impressive... not even close.
Not only was the intensity of brightness lacking, but the throw was too as you cannot see anything past the tree in those shootouts.

windstrings said:

Interesting.. that Costco HID has a lumen rating approaching that of a BB and even with the OK focus matches the Xeray 50W, yet if you look at the shootout link I was referencing.. the Costco HID didn't look too impressive... not even close.
Not only was the intensity of brightness lacking, but the throw was too as you cannot see anything past the tree in those shootouts.

Click to expand...

That is because the range really is not designed to show the throw of the real tight beam long throwing lights.
The Costco HID's hotspot only illuminates part of the canopy of the tree and the corona itself is very narrow, as in barely larger then canopy of the tree. You could not see the throw of the Costco beyond the tree because the Tree was blocking ALL of the hotspot. For sheer throw an Amondotech Illuminator will hold its own against a 50 watt XeRay and the well focused Costco will be at least equal to a barn burner.
Do you remember the shed shots from another shootout.
A well focused Costco HID will light the shed better then a BarnBurner only at 512 yards away just about all it will light is the shed. That is how tight the beam is.


Take Care,
mtbkndad :wave:

mtbkndad,

Thanks for making the beam shots and posting the pic's, they are very helpful. It looks like you have found the best light for your packable searchlight needs, lotta light from such a small package.

As for brightness from looking at it on this end the XeRay is brighter than the Helios and the P1 just some differences in the wide side spill and the spot depending on which reflector is used and the focus.

Again thanks for taking the time to shoot these lights, I don't think anybody could go wrong with them they just need to pick the light that meets their needs.

Later
Kelly

Re: Throw Issue in this thread

Dear Fellow Flashaholics,

One of the key points made in the initial commentaries by mtbkndad about the beamshots was that these lights, i. e. Helios and XeRay, easily illuminate farther than the unaided eye can usually see. Personally, as one approaching old-farthood too quickly, I use these lights for a practical working distance of about 100 to 150 yards, which keeps me informed about unhappy skunks, dogs, humans, etc, while walking or hiking. Beyond that distance, most of us cannot really identify too much without binoculars (also a neat, expensive pasttime, but don't get me started here).

So, I guess, the issue of "throw" is either theoretical or specialized in application, depending on your viewpoint. The various HID threads sometimes have had a bit of "mine is bigger than yours" in that regard, as Windy alluded to with the hot rod automobile analogy, but returning to the theme of this thread, what has been shown is that there is some very well done engineering available to those who need and/or want plenty of lumens, in a dependable, USABLE package.

In some of the other Forums on CPF, there are lots of folks who think we are f==k=ng nuts for even thinking of using these "aircraft landing lights" for any useful purpose, and worship their LED's as the next great religion. I confess, in my house I carry with me an Inova T2, and love its 40 lumen output dearly. OK, now I feel better -- absolutem. But, the testing in this thread shows that there are some great applications for 35-75 W HID lights. Just one example -- in upstate Pennsylvania, at night there are several critters you just don't want to get to know up-close-and-personal, while walking, camping or worse, at 2AM (I am being unusually tasteful in this regard), for example poisonous snakes, spiders, bears, skunks, and others). A powerful light will keep you informed and out of harm's way. 100 lumens just doesn't cut it sometimes.

I too want to thank the sponsors of these comparison tests, as they improve the "breed" for all of us.

Abandon All Hope, Ye Who Enter Here,
Canto 1, The Inferno, Dante Aligheri

Harvey K.

I'm not to sure about the rest of you guys, but I normally don't use my Rayzorlite beyond 40 feet.

mtbkndad said:

That is because the range really is not designed to show the throw of the real tight beam long throwing lights.
The Costco HID's hotspot only illuminates part of the canopy of the tree and the corona itself is very narrow, as in barely larger then canopy of the tree. You could not see the throw of the Costco beyond the tree because the Tree was blocking ALL of the hotspot.

Click to expand...

True, good point.... this particular location is more designed for "realisic" use for the immediate and local surroundings.
This is why I was requesting some farthur shots at one point.

It was mentioned in the past how the tree literally blocks the throw into the distance so the only thing you really get to judge beyond this distance is some outer corona throw.... which by the way, the Helios has none up high, only on the ground.. as mentioned earlier, they chopped it off to use elsewhere which is an excellent choice in enginneering for most uses.

This particular location does show the full potential of both the polarion and the Helios and any other light that has throw in that range and below.

But some of the other locations you guys have done seem to be better for throw and distance.
The Helis and polorion have no focus and is therefore not set up for throw since they chose the refector design to create to be a light for more practicle uses.

But when it comes to lights that either focus down or lights "designed" for throw such as the short arcs, or lights that just flat out have the lumens, this particular location is not a good one to judge those characteristics in thier fullness.

NAW said:

I'm not to sure about the rest of you guys, but I normally don't use my Rayzorlite beyond 40 feet.

Click to expand...

I don't really have that much experience yet with my light, but for close things, I just whip out my Fenix P1 I carry with rechargables.. it has about 55 lumens.. does all I need. But if your gonna use a light to see into never never land..... it will be one designed for lots of throw as well as the poteintial to "turn night into day" with tons of lumens and a wide enough beam and corona to light up a practicle area.

I personally don't think I would like the short arcs, cause your literally looking through a straw... no spill, no corona.... just a hole in the darkness filled with light.. simiilar to looking through a scope... these HID lights are really major overkill for 40 feet range unless your gonna focus them for wide angle.

But there are so many different applications that are possible so there is no one right light to have or one right way to use it... but I would agree that when your "really" need a light, it will be for ranges less than 40 feet for the normal joe, but for fire rescue, coastguard, police, hunters, or just fun crazy guys like us that love to blast the darkness into oblivion, then the distance is the last frontier!

I like to use the BB for communicating with my extra-terrestrial friends, but so far I have only heard back from 4 of them...and they are confused with my signal patterns.

Before these shootouts were popular, most of the time all you saw was some guy beaming at his living room wall, or at best against the fence in the backyard.

Its true you can see the intenseness of the beams, the size, but as far as really knowing how far they throw, I don't know of anyway to do it other than shoot them at farthur targets.

We can assume and guess at throw based on the brightness against the walls or even the trees, but some lights don't illuminate a whole lot but have really good throw, "like the short arcs" so that guestimation would be inaccurate.

I guess as lights keep getting stronger, we have to keep moving the target farthur away to get a reat taste of thier power at those distances... similiar to a shooting range for rifles.

I was comparing mine against the 10mcp Thor and it was noticable alright up close, but the distance made all the difference... the thor barely even made the trip at all whereas the Xeray turned that focused area in the distance into day.

windstrings said:

Interesting.. that Costco HID has a lumen rating approaching that of a BB and even with the OK focus matches the Xeray 50W, yet if you look at the shootout link I was referencing.. the Costco HID didn't look too impressive... not even close.
Not only was the intensity of brightness lacking, but the throw was too as you cannot see anything past the tree in those shootouts.

Click to expand...

Windy, you mention the Costco has just about the same LUMENS as the BB, I think, in reference to Mtbkndad's post above yours. But Mtbkndad in his post is showing the LUX reading at 37 feet, not the lumens output of the light. The Costco @ 35 Watts is no where near the BB in lumens output. I would guess its somewhere around the typical 3200 lumens from a 35 Watt, + or -.

BVH said:

Windy, you mention the Costco has just about the same LUMENS as the BB, I think, in reference to Mtbkndad's post above yours. But Mtbkndad in his post is showing the LUX reading at 37 feet, not the lumens output of the light. The Costco @ 35 Watts is no where near the BB in lumens output. I would guess its somewhere around the typical 3200 lumens from a 35 Watt, + or -.

Click to expand...

Hey.. so right you are.... good job at reading my mind... how did you get so good at it?... you must be married! :laughing:

That explains alot.. let my previous statement be stricken from the record.

I simply didn't want you to rack your brain for a week trying to figure out why the Costco "performed" so bad as compared to the BB. We don't want to loose too many braincells over this. They're hard enough to come by as it is!

BVH said:

I simply didn't want you to rack your brain for a week trying to figure out why the Costco "performed" so bad as compared to the BB. We don't want to loose too many braincells over this. They're hard enough to come by as it is!

Click to expand...

Whats a brain cell?...I'll have to ask my masta!