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Thread: Polarion Price Increases?

  1. #1
    Enlightened
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    Default Polarion Price Increases?

    I've been following the Helios and X1 threads with great anticipation and envy. Those lights appear to be fantastic tools. I noticed in a recent post by Ken J. Good that the prices on the Helios would increase to $1695. Expensive yes, but still manageable for a light of this caliber. My plan was to get one in January. I just visited the Polarion Store and noticed the prices on both lights had "jumped" considerabley. The Helios is now listed at $2095 and the X1 is at $1795. Did I miss something here? I checked previous threads/posts to see if I could find any info, but could not. The present prices mean the Helios has gone up about 33% in a few weeks and the X1 has increased by almost 30%. I'm not whining, but could someone explain these recent price jumps. This will certainly postpone my purchase of either light, if not stop it altogether. My initial response to these lights was that finally someone had produced a very powerful high quality HID that was within reach to the general public, but this was obviously premature thinking. My current collection of lights might indicate that cost is no concern, but it's taken a few years to aqcuire them. I might have to rely solely on my much less expensive PL24 from now on.

    Bill
    Last edited by bhj1; 12-17-2006 at 06:13 PM.
    Lights, lights & more lights!

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* Lurveleven's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    The dollar has dropped a lot in value lately, but not enough to justify the hole difference, but for some of it.

    Sigbjoern

  3. #3
    BVH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    The simple answer is to PM Ken with your question.

    I don't remember if he offered CPF members a discount. You might ask him at the same time.
    WWII 60" Anti Aircraft Carbon Arc (Sold), Short Arcs: 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600 Watt M-134 Gun Light, 500 Watt X-500-14s, 500 Watt Starburst, 300 Watt Locators, Megaray, 150 Watt Set Beam & Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, LarryK14@52V

  4. #4

    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Just say this as I have been up all night setting up the new desktop machine...My PC decided to die on me at the systemic level yesterday....It was getting worse and worse, finally it gave up the ghost.

    Polarion Prices....Yes....Up they went.

    Pretty simple really. It's a combination of things.

    - Initial price of the lights was low to prime the pump so to speak.
    - Weakening U.S. dollar vs Korean currency
    - Actual price of production was higher than anticipated
    - Need the additional margins to sustain the business model here in the U.S.

    Ultimately it is the customer who chooses.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    I guess I got my X-1 just in time. But someone had to be the first. THANKS KEN

  6. #6

    Buttrock Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    These lights are worth every penny I was lucky and got one for $1595
    but I would pay $2095 and not think twice after using one they are amazing.
    Just think about the cost of surefire lights in this class, wait a second the Helios
    blows the surefires out of the water at half the price.

    NUFF SAID

    Jay

  7. #7

    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    I just hope they come out with another one soon. I just got the X1 and i'm ready to go to the next level. Both worth every penny compared to all others I've seen.

  8. #8
    Flashaholic* windstrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Wholly Molely!!!! There must be tremendous demand in other areas besides the forum..... Thats a tremedous price increase!

    I haven't seen so much Helios interest on the forum since this price increase!.... maybe they should raise the price another 500.00 and maybe it will get even more interest? Maybe start a buying frenzy.... everyone will want to buy before the price goes up!..... then they can resell and make a profit!

  9. #9

    Smile Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    I was actually rather shocked when I saw the initial retail price. Everybody that followed the original Helios thread will likely remember that I thought would be in the $2000 to $3000 range based on the price of the original Beast and the Reva's.

    For that matter a person could buy the X1 Expedition package -$2250.95- and the Helios Expedition package -$2550.95- for the price of a Surefire beast -$4807- and the Beast is only listed as water resistant.
    Of course the Beast does have those nice rubber baby bumpers so it can be thrown around and maybe some people like the big square ballast in back of the head .


    Take Care,
    mtbkndad
    Last edited by mtbkndad; 12-18-2006 at 10:15 PM.

  10. #10
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    LOL! They are "Polarion Plants" I tell ya! LOL! I was shocked too when I saw the initial retail prices....about how high they were. Now I'm stunned into "XeRay Owner's Bliss" after seeing those new Polarion prices. Ummm I guess they really need the diving capability that the XeRay doesn't have to pay twice as much for less light. With Windy & me, this is like The Hatfields vs. The McCoys.
    Last edited by LuxLuthor; 12-18-2006 at 10:10 PM.

  11. #11

    Smile Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor
    LOL! They are "Polarion Plants" I tell ya! LOL! I was shocked too when I saw the initial retail prices....about how high they were. Now I'm stunned into "XeRay Owner's Bliss" after seeing those new Polarion prices. Ummm I guess they really need the diving capability that the XeRay doesn't have to pay twice as much for less light. With Windy & me, this is like The Hatfields vs. The McCoys.
    Actually, rather then being a Polarion plant I simply recognize that the intended market for the Helios products is military and other government agencies, not CPF members that want the power of the sun for the price of a candy bar and the size of an Orb Raw.

    Do not worry LuxLuthor I will never say you have a bad light.
    Remember that I have used both Polarion and XeRays on numerous occasions.
    Each is worth the price being asked. If the features of the Helios and X1 and their compact size are not needed, then a person can certainly save a LOT of money by buying a XeRay.

    I am fine with the light output and size of my Amondotech Illuminators in comparison with the XeRay for the price difference. You aren't going to call me and "Amondotech Plant" now are you . Come to think of it I did help redesign the inside of the Illuminator, ran the thread, got Amondotech to be the dealer, still answer PM's and questions regarding the Illuminators.
    All on a volunteer basis and then am accused of being a "Polarion Plant" because I like their lights.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad
    Last edited by mtbkndad; 12-18-2006 at 11:58 PM.

  12. #12
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    "Me thinks thou doth protest too much"

    I did not identify any particular person(s) in my last post in reference to who is or is not a Polarion Plant, nor whether I was serious or joking !!!

    Here's a clue:



    I would say however that the argument being made on CPF about prices being justified because they are oriented towards military and other government agencies is not 'kosher'.....since those parties do not care about the aesthetics and good looks of these lights which are highly promoted here (nor should they--since it is we the taxpayers footing the bills).

    If all the valid points were directed purely at function for the government agencies and their needs, that would be one thing...but to say that the Border Patrol or U.S. Navy needs an attractive and sleek light is nonsensical. They don't...and they should not be paying anything extra for such features.

    So now when I personally go back to looking at features...other than some price bump for medium depth waterproofing....I just don't see double the price in functionality or performance. There are even much cheaper diving lights that work better in that environment.

    So if you are back to adding in the aesthetics of this light to justify its extra value...which I admit are striking...then you are back to promoting it among the CPF member community who are crazy enough to care about such aspects. There's nothing wrong with saying the looks and aesthetic design are a valuable part of an item's higher price...that is a significant part of the Apple design & marketing for example.

    My main point about the Polarion Helios & now X-1 is that there are brighter performing lights for much cheaper, and with almost the same functionality. You can make an argument that it is only competing with the Beast or other SF markets...but there has not yet been a lot of effective competition to make high performance lights like this more reasonably priced. Competition generally drives prices lower...especially in the technology sector....so to have a marketing plan which starts a new light in an established market with a high price justified by already existing (SF) high prices is not taking into account market forces.

    We shall see how Polarion fares in the ever increasing, competitive market of high end lights. Let's just understand what you are getting in terms of lumens and overall performance for various prices. Similar to your Illuminator example...there is also a certain reasonable value to Harbor Lights, and X990 lights.

    My 'tongue-in-cheeky' "Polarion Plants" comments are related to not seeing very many objective or critical comments being made of the Polarion lineup...like how come no one else in this thread has any questions about Mac's inability to even get the X-1 properly turning on and off? I remember the stinging criticisms of the Razorbeams not working properly in reviews...and they were a lot cheaper.

    There was likewise many criticisms made about the XeRays...the circuit boards, battery draining, car charger issue, reflector issues, bottom plate & heat issues, etc. etc. So let's be fair about pro's and con's and not say that really high prices are irrelevant because a product is marketed to the military and govt. agencies. You could say the same thing about toilet seats....oh wait....scratch that one...LOL!

  13. #13
    Flashaholic* windstrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Usually when an item goes up in price, the price increase is "masked" by some improvement. "but not always".

    You see it in cameras alot, DVD's, TV's, computers, etc etc.

    Once the effectiveness of marketing runs out for a given product, the way the manufactures stimulates new interest is to add a new feature or improvement and raise the price "or sometimes even keep it the same".

    However I have seen products just put on a new "skin" and throw on a different model number to make the customer "feel" like they are getting an upgrade when they are not. I noticed this with mens electric shavers over the years.

    There is something missing here I don't understand and maybe I don't need to.

    But if I were saving for the Helios and it went up in price without warning with no improvements over its predecessor.. I would be inflamed... that while other products of electronic nature drops in price, this one went up?

    With my limited vision and limited understanding because I don't have all the facts, it would make me feel uncertain about whats up.


    If production cannot keep up with demand... you either increase production "more sales = more profit" or if the quantity of production is limited, you increase the price of the existing "higher price = more profit. The latter is more lucrative because you can do it without an increase in staffing.

    However, the problem with increasing the price due to not enough production, you could be killing the goose that lays the golden egg and cause the attention of the consumer to turn elsewhere and so "loose" all the momentum you had for sales.
    Its quite a delicate balance.

    If I suddenly had to pay 500.00 more dollars for the same product, I would feel cheated if I hadn't gotten a major improvement.. like a bounce up to 50 watts, or even 75 or an increase in battery size for longer runtime? "or both".. but we got nothing?
    I would be trying to figure out a way to get one if they did both.

    This will only make the competition look more appetizing. Marketing stategies that get your product to agencies that will spend the money works for a while, but the word of mouth of the competition soon catches up.

    When there is a lack of interest, many strategies are to gender controversy.
    Controversy actually can help a product become more noticed and increase sales. A trick Hollywood as picked up on. Free publicity!

    Prices of HID's have been falling as the technology becomes cheaper, better and more plentiful.
    Do we really think we are going to drive the prices back up to the days when you had to spend "two thousand dollars" for a nice HID light?

    If so, you better look again.... its all around you.... pretty only last so far....

    Like Ken said, ultimately the market makes the decision.... so if they can sell at that price, then more power to them... But I would expect its about the marketing... I see in pharmacy drug items as well as medical, its the salesman that gets his foot in the door first and wins thier attention first that gets the contract, not the one with the best product for the price....

    Many governmental agencies don't do any homework to see what the competition holds because they have blank checks at thier disposal... so they don't care if they spend 500.00 for a hammer, or 1500.00 for a 60.00 chair.
    Have you heard about this "tagging" of funds?.. almost like an unlimited account to buy what you want... "as we pay"

    Its true, its ashamed our government is not more conciencious with our money, but If I could tap that market with my product I would too.

    I still stand with my past convictions, the Helios is a beauty and many will pay based on beauty..... you throw in ruggedness too... the two are a rare combination.. people will pay more for that too.. but for the practicle power, runtime and features of manipulating the beam, the competition is better and better for a lower price.

    I know this inflames some to hear this... its merely my viewpoint.. I make no profit, nor do I know anyone in the field so my viewpoint is objective and unbiased. This was my stance before I bought my light "which now makes me biased"

    I did "allot" of digging and research before I made my purchase. If I had a nice expense account where money is no object, or if I was filthy rich, I too would go for the light that "looks" like no other... its indeed is a piece of craftmanship.

    We are dealing with people.. people with different needs, motives, and purposes for owning a light.. to many folks, the Coscto is the only thing that makes sense, to others, they will spend 2000.00 for a tiny litte rock that was mined out of a cave somewhere in Brazil that does absolutely nothing but sit there and sparkle.

    Finding what people will jump for and then determining how 'High" they will jump and providing that is the key to success. The Polarion folks obvious are betting the public will "now" jump "higher" for the same product...... So be it!

    I have yet to see the perfect light, and when I find it, I won't be able to afford it anyway.....

  14. #14

    Smile Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    LuxLuthor,

    I know you were being tongue and cheek with your response. That is why I replied rather then contact a moderator to look at a rather innapropriate post. When only two or three people post positive comments about the Polarion products after Ken's post and the you use the plural "Polarion Plants" then I have every reason and right to respond.

    An unfortunate reality for any business selling to the military or the government agencies, unfortunate for the private sector. Is that suggested retail and indivdual unit price points need to be at a level where there are sufficient margins for quantity discounts, extra people in the distribution chain (manufacturers, sometimes multiple levels of distributors, dealers) getting their cut, etc. This definitely creates a pay to play circumstance for private individuals wanting one unit.

    Regarding price, the point I am making is that the Helios and the X1 may be expensive compared to the under $1,000 crowd but they are very inexpensive compared to the Surefire Beast, Reva's, etc. The prices I listed came off of web sites selling each light or light package.

    Regarding objective critisism, I have been very objective regarding the lights I have actually used. I have given the XeRay's high praise in the areas I feel are there strengths.
    I have not used Mac's light and am sure Ken will find out what is wrong.
    I will wait to find out wether the switch problem was one light or a more serious issue. That is a large part of being objective, isn't it. Taking time to finds out all of the facts before a conclusion is made.
    Objectivity has to go both ways. It does for me and does not seem to for you. You seem firmly commited to your belief that these lights are too expensive for what you get and you call people "polarion plants" if they disagree with you. It is simply not always appropriate to make "joking" statements that without "" or LOL's would be highly offensive.
    For that matter, because it is a "joke" does not keep it from being offensive to the people it is directed at.

    I only ever asked Dan once about the reflector issue and took his word for the answer. The fact that a $800 light should not have ever had that much variation in performance without the manufacturer knowing about the variation in prototype units in advance is a serious oversight to me.
    This is particularly true since the "prototype" was sent to Mr Ted Bear as a light that is ready for review and testing. Costco/Harbor Freight HID's tend to have a variation with the reflectors. They are $129, you simply get what you pay for. Notice I said variation in performance not better or worse. That is because I have be very honest about my favorite XeRay configuration being the one with R1 and set to a Polarion P1 focus. A configuration that, according to Dan, is not available.

    If we really want to be objective we need to also take into account R & D and manufacturing costs. Polarion is a manufacturer and XeVision is an assembler.
    Once tooling is made(which itself is quite expensive), Plastic light bodies like the XeRay bodies can be made faster and cheaper then the 6061 tooling in the Polarion Helios and X1 that is treated to T6. Have you ever seen the little Polarion reflectors?
    I do not know what they cost but it is likely a lot?

    Dan gets his bodies from Taiwan. He has exclusive rights for here in the states and the AZ project person has rights for Asia (This is all public info that was dealt with in threads in the past). He then puts the ballasts, and bulbs in that he feels are best for the XeRay.

    I do not seek to agrue with you.
    I agreed that if somebody does not need the small size and extra features of the Polarion lights that person can save a LOT of money by buying the XeRay.
    Stricktly objectively speaking, I think the higher prices will get more people to look at XeRays.
    Subjectively speaking I would personally rather have an X1 at $1,795.00
    then a XeRay at $800. This is really true after seeing Mac's pictures.
    The X1 will fit in my pack even better then the Helios.

    I do want you to recognize that not all jokes are appropriate and when the persons they are directed toward, like myself, take offense you will get responses to them.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

  15. #15

    Smile Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    windstrings,

    You have several good points.
    I thought all along the $1,595 dollar price point was a rather unsustainable mistake.
    for two reasons.
    1. The pricing differnentials for different tiers of customer and sizes of orders that need to be incorportated into products being targeted for government or large corportate accounts.
    2. It is always easier to lower a price then to raise one.

    The smart thing would have been to come up with a price that Polarion & distributors knew in advance would be sustainable and then lower it in time if everything went better then expected or if no products sold.

    Since I do not work for Polarion I had no say in these matters.
    I also agree that moving price targets are challenging and frustrating to "save" for.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbkndad
    If we really want to be objective we need to also take into account R & D and manufacturing costs. Polarion is a manufacturer and XeVision is an assembler.

    Dan gets his bodies from Taiwan. He has exclusive rights for here in the states and the AZ project person has rights for Asia (This is all public info that was dealt with in threads in the past). He then puts the ballasts, and bulbs in that he feels are best for the XeRay. mtbkndad
    We are more than an assembler. While we do not manufacture the housing as you had indicated, we do design and manufacture HID ballasts and complete HID systems. While I believe Polarion only designs and manufactures the housing etc. but not the ballast, bulb etc. The Helios and probably the X1 as well, bulb is an off the shelf with only very minor modification Osram D1S bulb.
    Each of our companies do different parts of the package and buy other parts from other vendors. We are not as different as you indicated.

  17. #17
    Flashaholic* windstrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbkndad
    windstrings,
    You have several good points.
    I also agree that moving price targets are challenging and frustrating to "save" for.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad
    Thanks for not getting too upset with me for posting my views... I'll try to mellow now.....

    Hey... I just came up with a great idea!....

    If I promise to buy my wife a 2000.00 diamond, maybe she will buy "me" a Helios?.......... just daydreaming!..... I think I'll use 4K towards my fishing boat!.....

  18. #18

    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Fishiing boat?
    That is where our priorities are different.
    My MTB bike cost me around $3,800 buy the time I had it built up the way I wanted it.
    For an extra $2,000 dollars I gould have dropped about a pound to a pound and a half in weight.

    Then there is my annual atendance to MBC that will take priority again if I have to make that choice.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

  19. #19

    Smile Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Quote Originally Posted by XeRay
    We are more than an assembler. While we do not manufacture the housing as you had indicated, we do design and manufacture HID ballasts and complete HID systems. While I believe Polarion only designs and manufactures the housing etc. but not the ballast, bulb etc. The Helios and probably the X1 as well, bulb is an off the shelf with only very minor modification Osram D1S bulb.
    Each of our companies do different parts of the package and buy other parts from other vendors. We are not as different as you indicated.
    Thank you vey much for the clarifacations.
    I was only going by what I had gleaned from different posts and I was only speaking in terms of your XeRay HID searchlights not the XeVision systems you create.
    Even if you were only an assembler to your specs of the XeRay HID searchlights, you have put together a nice package.

    When I had a chance to talk with a Polarion rep I was told Polarion designed and produces the ballast in the Helios? That was a while back and I do not know what is in the X1 but will assume Polarion designed and produces that too.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad
    Last edited by mtbkndad; 12-19-2006 at 11:15 AM.

  20. #20
    Flashaholic* windstrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbkndad
    Fishiing boat?
    That is where our priorities are different.
    My MTB bike cost me around $3,800 buy the time I had it built up the way I wanted it.
    For an extra $2,000 dollars I gould have dropped about a pound to a pound and a half in weight.

    Then there is my annual atendance to MBC that will take priority again if I have to make that choice.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad
    Well without totally highjacking the thread..... I was gonna get a nice roadbike becaue I "love" bikes... but I find that I rarely go anywhere alone anymore, but we have a 33 mile lake setting here at my doorstep and lots of nice weather "300 days of sunshine a year" so I intend to spend many a relaxing evenings and even mornings out on the lake...and it will be a tremendous tool to get closer to the grandkids by taking them fishing and doing watersports...... of course I'll have my trusty light!

    Its true about priorities.. its all about what our "value" system entails... and we will pay dearly to make it happen!

  21. #21
    BVH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Hey Windy, we do have a bit more in common than our love of lights. I had a SevenCycles Ti Axiom built for my unusual size back in 2003. When I "pull the plug" in 6/08, I plan on taking 4 or so months to ride across the U.S. I think you're too far south for the northernish route I want to take, But I'll wave anyway - or maybe by that time, I'll have a 500 Watt HID the size of a RAW and I can shine the beam at a predetermined time. Sorry, Bill, for further hijacking your thread but at least I said something about HID lights
    WWII 60" Anti Aircraft Carbon Arc (Sold), Short Arcs: 1.6KW NightSun, 1KW VSS-3A, .8KW TrakkaBeam, 600 Watt M-134 Gun Light, 500 Watt X-500-14s, 500 Watt Starburst, 300 Watt Locators, Megaray, 150 Watt Set Beam & Communicator, Maxabeam Gen3, LarryK14@52V

  22. #22
    Enlightened
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    This post is getting a "little" more mileage than I anticipated. I have to admit that it was my frustration with the seemingly ridiculous Polarion price increases that prompted me to post at all. My reasoning behind publicly "calling out" Ken on this issue was this: The Polarion lights have been heavily promoted by Ken on this forum and this in turn has produced a lot of forum talk on the lights. That's exactly what this forum is about, talking flashlights! Isn't that why we're all here?

    The promotion thing is also a part of this forum board. But I believe that if a product is promoted here publicly, then it's entirley appropriate to publicly inquire about unsolicited, large price increases.

    Litedisorder politely stated that I should PM Ken. That was a good idea and I did send Ken a PM. Instead of replying via a PM Ken publicly replied on this thread.

    The Polarion lights are nice and I fully expected to purchase one. That is before the price increase. This is a free market and Ken has every right to charge whatever he wants for the Polarion lights. If I decide not to get a Polarion I can get "several" other HID lights. This is not a bad option either. The thought of a few other lights is actually exciting. Sure I'll miss not getting a Polarion, but I'll survive. My decision is going to be more about principle than any other factor. They'll turn up on the used market sometime.

    Ken's statement that it's up to the consumer to decide is completely correct, and I respect him for it.

    LuxLuther questioned why no one is asking about Mac's troubles with his new Polarion light. Maybe we're all just blinded by the Polarion light? The reality is that the Polarion lights will have their issues just as any other high-tech piece of equipment.

    Bill
    Lights, lights & more lights!

  23. #23

    Smile Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    I have one final thought that is demonstrated well in the difference between XeVision and Polarion as I see it.
    XeVision is, I believe, a fairly small company as corporations go. I mean that in a good way.
    When you call to talk about a XeRay you get Dan who is responsible for these lights.
    Ken is the US distributor for Polarion. When you call and talk to Ken you are talking to the distributor who also sells to dealers.
    What I am getting at is he may not have had anything to do with this price increase.
    He, as the US distributor, may merely have been told the price is going up and then had to pass it on.

    I am just an outsider looking in or these would have never been priced at $1,595 in the first place , but I do believe it is not fair to hold the distributor responsible for the price increase without knowing whether or not his prices went up.
    I do know Ken is a person of very high integrity and I do believe he is NOT the kind of the kind of person that would raise prices just to raise prices.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

  24. #24

    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    I think everyone here knows that I like the polarions.But I also have Boxer+ AE HID lights which I also like very much. The thing that makes me like the Helios+ X1 so much is the instant on, and I do mean instant. The others take up to 30 seconds to come up to full brightness. To me a flashlight that you have to wait on to light up is hard to get used to. Do any of the other lights have true instant on. If so I would be interested in them also. All the high end lights are pretty close to brightness- throw-beam quality-ect. But how many have instant on.

  25. #25
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    mtbkndad, "Me thinks thou doth [continue] protest[ing] too much." (my apologies to altering Shakespeare's original words)

    You are further assuming that my "Polarion Plants" joking comments refers only to this one thread, which would be an incorrect assumption. I do find it quite puzzling why you have decided to "go ballistic" about my comments which are not personally directed.

    I feel I am much more objective about pointing out problems, issues, high prices, etc. with a number of these lights, including raising a number of issues about the very two XeRay lights I have purchased. I find it extremely odd when challenging my objectivity, that a quick review of all your posts on the various Helios and X-1 threads, seem to be 100% Pro-Polarion....as is the case with some others posting about the lineup.

    No matter what anyone raises as an issue, or challenges to an explanation (i.e. my previous responses about the military/govt. agencies sole market), there seems to be a "Pro-Polarion" answer about everything....with even a few more negative reminders again thrown in about XeRay shortcomings...LOL!

    Now maybe you honestly believe that every single aspect of every single Polarion that ever comes out is absolutely perfect, and of course the price should now be much higher in recognition...but after a while the lack of criticism that has been so ever present in previous shootouts and posts about other lights seems to be glaringly missing with this Polarion product line. Even the recent shootout raised more questions than answers about objectivity....leading to an ultra-complex re-shooting with even more Pro-Polarion comments...and dissing the prototype XeRay reflector.

    And you now bring up some vague inference of reporting my posts to a moderator....oh that was rich. LOL! Go ahead....but I think my comments have been calm, objective, and backed up by sound reasoning. I have even said that knowing Ken is a Navy Seal elevates him to a near God status for me.

    Believe it or not, I'm trying to actually be objective....as there are many aesthetic features to appreciate about the Helios and X-1, which I have stated. There are also many drawbacks to them when compared to other lights.


  26. #26

    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    I shure do like the LED battery guage also. I' just sturring the pot, (SORRY)

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Quote Originally Posted by LITEDISORDER
    I think everyone here knows that I like the polarions.But I also have Boxer+ AE HID lights which I also like very much. The thing that makes me like the Helios+ X1 so much is the instant on, and I do mean instant. The others take up to 30 seconds to come up to full brightness. To me a flashlight that you have to wait on to light up is hard to get used to. Do any of the other lights have true instant on. If so I would be interested in them also. All the high end lights are pretty close to brightness- throw-beam quality-etc. But how many have instant on.
    NO "Metal Halide" type HID of any kind offers instant on to full brightness, Helios is this type of HID. All of this HID family (Not Xenon short arc) have a warm up period of varying degrees. Some take as much as 30 seconds as you have indicated. In the 35-40 watt market they typically take 10-20 seconds. The faster it is done the harder it is on both ballast and bulb. To get quicker warm up the HID must be overdriven to speed the process. The highest overdrive rates I have seen are about 100-110 bulb watts and quickly ramping down from there, that is 3X steady state wattage. Philips, Osram and GE who make the quality bulbs (Helios uses Osram) have done their testing. They do not recommend the initial overdrive wattage go beyond 100-110 bulb watts maximum and very quickly ramping down from there as the internal arc impedance (internal resistance) of the plasma changes toward a stabilized steady state. None of the ballasts offered by Philips or Osram overdrive beyond this point and Philips pushes it the farthest to about 105 bulb watts or so on one of their ballast products. If someone is claiming full output instantly and this visually appears close to being true, then there is a "price to be paid" for this in bulb life, ballast life and possibly even battery life when pulling 10+ amps for a few seconds from the Li Ion battery pack. Now, for emergency or some tactical situations, I can see a possible need for this and "dam the torpedoes" but for most applications this is not the case. This could also cause the bulb or ballast to fail when it is needed most the next (another) time, there is no free lunch. I believe, this is one reason the Surefire Hellfire has a "spring loaded" lens cap, this way I believe they turn it on for maybe 10 seconds before opening the cover (covert start up). For more typical applications, I think there is a good balance between faster start up and longevity of the electronics, bulb and battery package.
    Last edited by XeRay; 12-20-2006 at 09:57 AM.

  28. #28

    Smile Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    LuxLuther,

    My only issue with your post is that I believe, whether joking or not, statements like "Polarion plants" are inflamatory. I did see the "" and LOL so I did not take it as breaking CPF rule number 4.

    You will notice I do not say much about the Polarion P1. That is because I do not want to beat a dead horse and have already mentioned the, what I consider to be bad ergonomics.

    For me, small size and packability is everything in the high end light I get. The Helios was dropped from my most desirable spot when I saw the X1 is more uniform in shape and bright enough for my purposes.
    I agree that for the average person the price and features of the Helios and X1 are to high and overkill respectively.
    For that matter, I think the average person would be better served by an Amondotech Illumintor or X990 then a XeRay and have a lot of money left over.

    I do not see this as a dual or debate I truly do not believe there is a best light out there for everybody.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad
    Last edited by mtbkndad; 12-21-2006 at 09:08 AM.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* windstrings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    Quote Originally Posted by LITEDISORDER
    I shure do like the LED battery guage also. I' just sturring the pot, (SORRY)
    I like that too.. thats the only thing I would like to have... I do have lights, but not like the LED's.
    Most of those guages are not real accurate anyway.. but they do look cool.
    It kinda makes the light look like its alive..... or a little more high tech....

    Too bad they have all that glory in only a 35/40 watt package.. I would really like to see it in a higher wattage and more batteries for the money.

    I don't mind paying some pretty serious bucks if its cutting edge.. but I do need more than looks and diving abilties for that much money.

    I can appreciate thier cost if compared to surefire and some others... but I guess some other manufacturers are totally out of touch with reality with thier competition.

    I heard a rumour surefire was in trouble because of competition. But any company will suffer if they loose touch with the competition.

    If the Helios was "forced" to go up in price.. I hope they know what they are doing.. its too nice of a light to lose off the market.... but I am perplexed as to why they have not upgraded the performance of it in both output, and battery.

    Its almost like they think there is no competition or something, like they are the only guys in town with a light this nice in the 3K and less range??
    Whenever you raise your price without improvements, thats the only deduction I can come up with?

    I hope reality doesn't hit them so hard in the face they go out of business.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Polarion Price Increases?

    For this kind of money, I would probably get a current generation (new) Maxa Beam at 7.5 million CP (bulb rated for 1,000 hours) with POWER flood-to-spot adjustment, and some serious THROW.

    Second to the MB, I would go for the lumens giant, the Xeray Barn Burner, or a Xeray 50W with an upgrade to BB.

    The styling of Polarion is nice but these would be my choices for THROW and LUMENS, respectively.

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