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Thread: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

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    Flashaholic* benchmade_boy's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    my freind got to play with the new one up at the denver gun show. he said it was soo cool, and i was so jeluos.


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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by dingbat
    To combine two threads, at only $4800.00, knowing how our government works, every TSA agent should be issued at least one.

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    Flashaholic* 65535's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!


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    Flashaholic* TORCH_BOY's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Could buy a new car with that

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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Why would someone buy that when they can get a maxabeam?

    Im sorry... but this is like spending $80,000 for a top of the line honda accord EX while you can purchase a BMW 5 series for $50,000ish...

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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Agree'd...no way that light costs more than a few hundred dollars to build.....the markup is criminal.

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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Still, our government can afford that while the average consumer can't. I agree that the total cost of this light is probably less than $1000 by a fairly large margian, however, everyone has to make thier money somewhere and the government is a good place to start

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    Flashaholic* seery's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surefire Beast II, it's absolutely worth the $$.

    Thanks to a good friend (who is a military rep), I was able to run one of these
    a few weeks back. We've had two units on order for a few months and are
    anxiously awaiting delivery, even more so now.

    The Beast II is an absolute wall of white light, amazing...amazing...amazing!!!
    The included rechargeable Lithium Ion handle is a fine addition to the primary cell
    handle which we ran.

    But if you are all wondering what makes the Beast II worth the price of admission?
    It's the quality of light, the incredible build quality of all the components, SF
    customer support, and the R&D that went into this light.

    Eords can't explain how this light felt in the hands.

    You get what you pay for and the Beast II is no exception. If you need the
    absolute best, spend what it takes and get it.

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    Flashaholic* NAW's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    When you really think about it, the Beast II is actually a very very weak light compared to the other HID lights out there on the market.

    Those 2000 lumens is nothing compared to BarnBurner, Helios, X1, 50W Xeray, 35W Polarion, Rayzorlite, X990, Costco HID, Amondotech Illuminator, Rayzorbeam, etc...

    If anything I would forget the Beast II and go straight to the Helios. The Helios is 1/2 the price, 4000 lumens, smaller, and lighter than the Beast II
    Last edited by NAW; 12-27-2006 at 02:18 PM.

  12. #12

    Smile Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NAW
    When you really think about it, the Beast II is actually a very very weak light compared to the other HID lights out there on the market.

    Those 2000 lumens is nothing compared to BarnBurner, Helios, X1, 50W Xeray, 35W Polarion, Rayzorlite, X990, Costco HID, Amondotech Illuminator, Rayzorbeam, etc...

    If anything I would forget the Beast II and go straight to the Helios. The Helios is 1/2 the price, 4000 lumens, smaller, and lighter than the Beast II
    Surefire is claiming 2000 lumen light output not a 2000 lumen bulb.
    There is a big difference.
    None of the 35 watt lights above have any where near the 3200 lumens their bulbs are rated at coming out of their front ends.

    This is also true about the 50 watt lights that use the lumens of the bulb to rate their light, ect..

    The Surefire Beast I have seen holds it's own against any of the above lights when you consider it was designed more for flood and not to be a throw monster. I have never seen the new Beast 2 and do not know what it's beam is like. I do know that it will be very bright whatever beam pattern it uses.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

    Added section: You are definitely right about the price difference between the Helios and Beast. I calculated before I could buy one Helios expedition package + I X1 expedition package for the price of a Beast.
    Last edited by mtbkndad; 12-27-2006 at 02:43 PM.

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    Flashaholic* NAW's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbkndad
    Surefire is claiming 2000 lumen light output not a 2000 lumen bulb.
    There is a big difference.
    None of the 35 watt lights above have any where near the 3200 lumens their bulbs are rated at coming out of their front ends.
    Thanks... I realize the only companies that uses lumens out the front are Surefire and HDS (well thats my underststanding)

    But when you think about it... with that being the case many of the other HID lights would still be able to be brighter than the Beast II because the Beast II doesn't use a SMO reflector as the rest of the other HID lights. Of course the Beast II is a flood light, but when you see spot compared to flood, you're going to want spot.
    Last edited by NAW; 12-27-2006 at 03:00 PM.

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    Smile Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NAW
    Thanks... I realize the only companies that uses lumens out the front are Surefire and HDS (well thats my underststanding)

    But when you think about it... with that being the case many of the other HID lights would still be able to be brighter than the Beast II because the Beast II doesn't use a SMO reflector as the rest of the other HID lights. Of course the Beast II is a flood light, but when you see spot compared to flood, you're going to want spot.

    The Beast beam pattern is nice for lots of things. It is just a matter of preference. I personally like the Helios beam pattern more in a spotlight like this for it's balance of throw and flood from it's wide corona.
    For $4807 you would think this light could have an adjustable beam like the XeRay, with a high efficiency reflector like the Helios and X1. I also think Surefire should have been able to loose the ugly square ballast behind the head. Maybe those are Really expensive LED's.

    I wish I were a purchasing agent for a government agency. I would love to just how low the prices go for the Beast, Hellfighter, Helios, X1, etc. when large orders are being placed.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

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    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Let's see you take those other lights and throw them as far as you can, while they are lit, and see how many of them stay lit!

    PK did just that with the Beast, and while I wasn't there, those that were said it went WAY up in the air and a LONG way down the street and kept right on running!

    How many of you would be willing to do that with your Polarians, Costco HIDs, Xeray, Helios, Rayzorlites, Amondotechs, etc? I have two of those, and I ain't gonna try it with either!

    The Beast is what it is, and cost what it cost, period!

    No one else I know of makes a light that WE can buy that will take the abuse the Beast and Hellfighter can, at ANY price!

    Bill
    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
    Benjamin Franklin

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    Smile Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    Let's see you take those other lights and throw them as far as you can, while they are lit, and see how many of them stay lit!

    PK did just that with the Beast, and while I wasn't there, those that were said it went WAY up in the air and a LONG way down the street and kept right on running!

    How many of you would be willing to do that with your Polarians, Costco HIDs, Xeray, Helios, Rayzorlites, Amondotechs, etc? I have two of those, and I ain't gonna try it with either!

    The Beast is what it is, and cost what it cost, period!

    No one else I know of makes a light that WE can buy that will take the abuse the Beast and Hellfighter can, at ANY price!

    Bill
    I would be fine with doing that with BVH's Helios once it is fitted with the same type of monster playschool looking rubber baby bumbers that come with the beast.
    (He may not be fine with it ). I know about the demonstration. Mr. Ted Bear told me about it and he was there, I am under the understanding the beast had it's bumbers on. If I remember correctly, they were on a third floor balcony and PK threw it up as far as he could. The light did suffer some internal damage, I believe to the battery holder, but still worked. Mr Ted Bear or another person that was there is welcome to correct me if I got the details wrong.

    It seems to me that is a better demonstration of Surefire's removeable shock isolation system then the light itself.
    Sort of like Charlotte's web being a better demonstration of a brilliant spider then "some pig" .
    Try that with a Beast without the rubber bumbers and I will be real impressed.
    A fenix surived 10 story drop down an elevator shaft. That is impressive.
    Let's also remember that was the original Beast not the Beast 2 with it's increased circuitry and LED's in the reflector.

    As far as I am concerned the new Beast 2 needs to proove itself rather then rest on it's predessor's laurels.
    The last time I saw a new in the case Beast on Ebay it went for just under $3,000.
    Now apparently the new Beast has a Polarion X1 or two XeRays worth of improvements.
    Maybe the new rubber can handle being tossed from a six story building .
    Have LED prices gone up that much since I have been primarily hanging out in the Spotlight Forum?
    This is another perfect example of what Windstrings has been saying in the Helios thread. I will change the words to apply to the Beast 2
    Okay the Beast 2 is an improvement over the Beast, please show me where the new improvements justify what seems to be close to a $2,000 price increase. Have materials really gone up that much?

    I have been told there have been numerous versions of the Beast that never made it into the hands of the public. They were made for specific agencies with specific needs. That kind of custom work certainly does carry a price tag.

    Aside from that, I still believe the main reason for the High Price of the Surefires and Polarions is to have the margins necessary for the agency and quantity discounts a company needs to provide to deal with the government or large corporations.
    Surefire has other things that Polarion does not.
    Size and a reputation.
    A good reputation goes a long way to promote a product.
    Just like you using a test of the original Beast to declare how tough this one is.
    There just have not been years of Helios production to proove it's long term quality and reliability yet.
    For that matter I do not know if enough Helios's and X1's have been made to get them out of the new product growing pains phase yet.
    I am sure the Beast 2 is a wonderful light.
    I personally think it is rather ugly with its square ballast box.
    It is also not compact enough for my purposes so even if I had the money for searchlight purchases I would pass on a Beast 2 and buy an X1 expedition package, a 50 watt XeRay and have a custom high efficiancy reflector made for it like the Polarion reflectors, a X990 and still have lots of money left over.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

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    Flashaholic* NAW's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    No one else I know of makes a light that WE can buy that will take the abuse the Beast and Hellfighter can, at ANY price!
    Well unless someone goes out and tosses every HID light out there on the market, then we can't know for sure the quality of these other lights, thus we can't totally assume the Beast II is superior to all other lights in durabillity without a proper testing of all HID lights... (if you know what I mean)

    Plus there are other factors like was the Beast II modified before the test to help its fall, how much feet did it fall, how did it land (landing on ballast, or straight on the rear, etc could yield different results), ...

    I'm just saying unless someone can prove to me the Beast II has better durability, etc than all other HID lights out there, then I can't see such a high price tag justifiable.

    But I sure would'nt mind owning one.
    Last edited by NAW; 12-28-2006 at 01:13 AM.

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    I get so sick of everyone justifying absolutely ridiculous prices for these high end SF lights by talking about throwing it off tops of buildings...like that is something that a military member will plan on doing. That is just completely stupid, unless the military is filled with morons as John Kerry suggested.

    Stop and think about all the military hardware that is used...and it all has defined uses and procedures that must be followed. To use this SF durability logic to justify disgustingly high prices, you might as well say that an F-16 should also be designed to be able to fly straight into the ground, and suffer no damage.

    The truth of the matter is that the military needs some radical oversight to stop them from wasting that kind of money on a light that can will work if thrown down a garbage disposal. As much as I think the Polarion lights are also way overpriced, I would prefer they use those and save a ton of money...or some other cheaper light....and demand that the soldiers take care of that affordable piece of equipment the same as a laser scope, portable radio, or any sensitive piece of electronics.

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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    A flashlight for a few hundred dollars is something I will part with out of my OWN pocket to stay alive. If your life depended on it, would you mount a Mag-lite or a SF weapons light to a M16 in a harsh environment? Remember all those things are tools; designed to be used but not abused. I am glad I am still here and not risking my life to save a piece of equipment that can be replaced.

    The hellfire light was designed to be mounted onto heavy weapons. I don't think any of the other HID lights can withstand the constant thumping of a E34 machine gun or .50 BMG M2.

    Remember not everyone gets cool flashlights, only the SF guys.

    The same can go for cars, why spend $500K-$1 million US dollars on high end car when a $10K Hyundai will do the same? Because people can.

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Testing a light on an M16 is not remotely the same as throwing it off buildings. Using an analogy of a $500K-1 Million recreational sports car toy for the ultra rich has nothing to do with using an affordable light that the taxpayer is buying, and that can be properly cared for with the appropriate instructions & guidelines.

    You could make these same lame arguments about every piece of equipment that is ever used by the military...that it must be indestructible. Let's see....soldiers are instructed not to use their M-16 as a pry-bar...so somehow they manage not to use it for that stupid use. To follow your logic, why don't we have every Hummer now cost $100 million so none of the Iranian IED's can possibly damage it in any way, no matter the amount of plastic explosive used?

    A better analogy of common sense affordable engineering is the AK-47....which became the weapon of choice throughout the world that is not being supplied by the "Cost Is No Object--USA" (aka: Taxpayers).

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    Flashaholic* NAW's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Its funny how there is a low number of Surefire Beast II and Hellfire owners here(compared to other HID owners), yet those two products seem to get the most praise and glory.

    Its all Surefire reputation. I could bet if the Beast II weren't made by Surefire and by some other company, then it would never be taken seriously.

    The bottom line is simple though... its only worth it if you feel its worth it.

    I for one don't think its worth it and will subscribe to something else that I feel is definetley worth every penny which would probably be the BarnBurner. As for those who go down the raod of the Beast II, I hope you have fun
    Last edited by NAW; 12-28-2006 at 02:55 AM.

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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor
    Testing a light on an M16 is not remotely the same as throwing it off buildings. Using an analogy of a $500K-1 Million recreational sports car toy for the ultra rich has nothing to do with using an affordable light that the taxpayer is buying, and that can be properly cared for with the appropriate instructions & guidelines.

    You could make these same lame arguments about every piece of equipment that is ever used by the military...that it must be indestructible. Let's see....soldiers are instructed not to use their M-16 as a pry-bar...so somehow they manage not to use it for that stupid use. To follow your logic, why don't we have every Hummer now cost $100 million so none of the Iranian IED's can possibly damage it in any way, no matter the amount of plastic explosive used?

    A better analogy of common sense affordable engineering is the AK-47....which became the weapon of choice throughout the world that is not being supplied by the "Cost Is No Object--USA" (aka: Taxpayers).
    And to follow your logic of being an arm chair expert you never deal with things that do break down in an area of combat no matter how much they cost.

    How many soldiers do you think have a SF Beast of Hellfire? I would say only a very small percent. The reason we do not have $100 million dollar HMMWV's is because it is not cost effective. Its a game of numbers and sometimes a human life is a calculated risk. You can make arguments but that dead soldier is still dead no matter how much money the US of A throws at him.

    If you don't like it, leave.
    Last edited by JasonC8301; 12-28-2006 at 03:22 AM.

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    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    ROFL...telling me to leave as your answer. Good Job.

    It amazes me how once you expose the illogical thinking of justifying ridiculously high prices for someone's pet product because it is being sold to the military, they bring in something like their "last ditch - dead soldier "theory.

    So you are saying that a soldier is not smart enough to use a spotlight the way instructed to do so? How can they have learned not to use their M16 as a pry-bar, but then are not able to figure out that throwing an affordable spotlight down a 6 story building is not acceptable?

    Surely you understand that if they bend the M16 barrel it would similarly jeopardize their life? So to follow your logic because you are enamored of the high end SF lineup, we taxpayers should now justify "the military" adding another $4,000 to fortify every single M16 barrel with some new spinkee titanium alloy...since we should spare no expense to prevent a dead soldier from dying when they use their M16 as a prybar. ROFL!

  24. #24

    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    The Surefire beast is the Harley Davidson of flashlights. So basicly, it costs twice as much as it should (based on its size, weight, output) because of the name brand.

    As far a soldiers are concerned, the government will spend a set amount per solder. I would rather that money be spent wisely on things like better body armor, more powerful ammuntion, or better pay!

    Imagine if Surefire came out with a "rappers edition 50 Cent Beast III" plated with real platinium look-alike aloys and encrusted with cubic zirconium diamonds for $8,000. I'm sure some here would argue that Surefire had to substantialy beef up the light to incorporate the extra bling thus justifing the $4,000 higher price tag.

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    Flashaholic* seery's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Very well stated Bill. IMHO the price of the Beast II is quite fair for what it offers. Of ALL the other HID's, it's the only "real tool" among the toys.

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    Let's see you take those other lights and throw them as far as you can, while they are lit, and see how many of them stay lit!

    PK did just that with the Beast, and while I wasn't there, those that were said it went WAY up in the air and a LONG way down the street and kept right on running!

    How many of you would be willing to do that with your Polarians, Costco HIDs, Xeray, Helios, Rayzorlites, Amondotechs, etc? I have two of those, and I ain't gonna try it with either!

    The Beast is what it is, and cost what it cost, period!

    No one else I know of makes a light that WE can buy that will take the abuse the Beast and Hellfighter can, at ANY price!

    Bill

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    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Does anyone here HONESTLY think that PK LOWERED the standards he established with the Beast? I have not heard that the BeastII has been subjected to the same type of "throw it as far as you can" test that the Beast was, but I have serious doubts that PK LOWERED the survivability of the light for the second version!

    Lex, I'm sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you have NO experience in high stress jobs!

    Of course the military doesn't intentionally throw their HID lights, or drop them off buildings, or intentionally do many of the things that Beast is made to survive, but those things DO happen accidently also. (Soldier on roof checking area for hiding enemies, gets shot at, dives for cover, light falls off roof.)

    BUT, military environments ARE incredibly tough on equipment, not because of deliberate abuse, but because of the situation.

    NO ONE forces anyone to buy a Beast, if a cheaper light will do what you want it to, buy it! The military does, buying lots of other HID lights for different uses.

    BUT, once again, when they need the survivability of the Beast/BeastII or Hellfire, that's what they buy.

    Does anyone here understand "lowest price" pricing? It essentially states that you must give the government the best available price. You cannot design something to government standards, charge the government one price, and then lower the price once you have made up your development costs.

    Since there is essentially NO commercial market, (give me a break if you think the few people that own Beasts here on CPF are a legitimate money making market!) Surefire makes its costs up on the government market. If they then release a few to us wackos, we pay what the government pays, +/- whatever additional marketing/handling costs there are for small volume sales.

    For those who think they are too much money for the parts, please design and build one and bring it out for less and people will line up to buy them!

    Sheesh, I've seen people here on CPF pay $1000 for $10 worth of Titanium, and $30 worth of circuitry and LED!

    Bill
    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
    Benjamin Franklin

  27. #27

    Smile Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    Does anyone here HONESTLY think that PK LOWERED the standards he established with the Beast? I have not heard that the BeastII has been subjected to the same type of "throw it as far as you can" test that the Beast was, but I have serious doubts that PK LOWERED the survivability of the light for the second version!

    Lex, I'm sorry, but it is VERY obvious that you have NO experience in high stress jobs!

    Of course the military doesn't intentionally throw their HID lights, or drop them off buildings, or intentionally do many of the things that Beast is made to survive, but those things DO happen accidently also. (Soldier on roof checking area for hiding enemies, gets shot at, dives for cover, light falls off roof.)

    BUT, military environments ARE incredibly tough on equipment, not because of deliberate abuse, but because of the situation.

    NO ONE forces anyone to buy a Beast, if a cheaper light will do what you want it to, buy it! The military does, buying lots of other HID lights for different uses.

    BUT, once again, when they need the survivability of the Beast/BeastII or Hellfire, that's what they buy.

    Does anyone here understand "lowest price" pricing? It essentially states that you must give the government the best available price. You cannot design something to government standards, charge the government one price, and then lower the price once you have made up your development costs.

    Since there is essentially NO commercial market, (give me a break if you think the few people that own Beasts here on CPF are a legitimate money making market!) Surefire makes its costs up on the government market. If they then release a few to us wackos, we pay what the government pays, +/- whatever additional marketing/handling costs there are for small volume sales.

    For those who think they are too much money for the parts, please design and build one and bring it out for less and people will line up to buy them!

    Sheesh, I've seen people here on CPF pay $1000 for $10 worth of Titanium, and $30 worth of circuitry and LED!

    Bill
    With all due respect this thread was about "what a bargain" the Beast is.
    I do not believe PK would intentionally design the Beast 2 to be less durable.
    That does not mean it instantly is as durable either.
    I could drop a Beast from 10 or 15 feet and ruin it.
    That test would be no more fair then assuming every Beast will always be able to handle the punishment that the one PK threw did.

    The one point I did not elaborate on regarding Surefires advantage over Polarion is that Surefire is big.
    They have a large well established distribution system and they are big enough to aggressively protect their pricing structure. The end result is that they can charge what they want.

    That is their right. It is only a matter of time before others develop lights of similar quality and at substantially lower prices.
    I really do not think the average Soldier or Border agent is planning on throwing their Beast's on a regular basis.
    The Helios is more compact, does not have a square ballast behind the head and is $2700 less and thows farther where it counts while still having a very wide beam.

    Companies simply will charge what they feel their products are worth.
    As I mentioned before, even if I had $4,800 for spotlight purchases I would not buy a Beast. I could get much more lighting capacity that is more suited to my needs from multiple companies for the same price.

    Take Care,
    mtbkndad

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    One word of note, The US military is somewhat unsatisfied with the performance of the Hellfire (I have been told this by my military contacts). They have returned many failed units. They are actively looking for other options. It is my understanding the US military pays about $2,600.00 for the Hellfire.

  29. #29
    *Flashaholic* bwaites's Avatar
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    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    I understand that some units MAY have failed, but the fact that they are ACTIVELY looking is a pretty good indication that no one has found an obviously better unit.

    As for your contacts in the military, what do you EXPECT them to say to you? That's the way the game is played! If the military was really unhappy, they would cancel or put on hold future orders. Since the process to do so with unclassified items is public, has anyone checked?

    I'm not a Surefire rep, nor do I think that their lights are the be all and end all. In fact, I think that many of their lights CAN be improved, (Look at what Milkyspit is doing to them for one example!).

    BUT...and this is a big BUT...No one else seems to have stepped into the breach to produce a comparable light at a better price!

    I don't (and never will) have a Beast/BeastII/Hellfire etc. I DO have several commercial HID lights. They suit my needs and budget. The Surefires do not.

    I keep hoping that XeRay will produce a light with Beast/Hellfire durability and at 1/3 the cost, but so far, every HID I have fails some of my criteria. Too big, wrong body, etc. None of them are perfect, (neither are the Surefires to me).

    At the price, they are what they are; some of us think they are overpriced, some of us think underpriced, some just right priced.

    However, until SOMEONE comes out with a similar unit at a better price, it is the defacto "best buy"!

    I remember a similar discussion in the late winter/early spring. XeRay was working on a new light with similar specs, is it ready for primetime?


    Bill
    Last edited by bwaites; 12-28-2006 at 11:27 AM.
    Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.
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  30. #30
    Flashaholic* XeRay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Ogden, Utah
    Posts
    802

    Default Re: it's an absolute BARGAIN !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bwaites
    I remember a similar discussion in the late winter/early spring. XeRay was working on a new light with similar specs, is it ready for primetime?
    We are already selling to the military for a 50 cal application. We are not showing this installation on our website, since we do not want any of our competition to know what we are doing yet. In a few months it wont matter any more.

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