Oh no! Space Shuttle Disaster. Tune to CNN

Terrible.

well the other string "space shuttle emergency" seems to be serving the more emotional/spiritual side of the event ..
maybe we can discuss more the facts in this string?
seems now that they should have looked at the tile damage before reentry. I see on TV, the NASA spokesman; saying yes that's what we should have done, but there was nothing we could have done about it anyway..they could have taken a picture but for this same reason chose not to..there was no way for the astronauts to take a space walk to look..and there was no way to fix the tiles in space.

would sending up a second vehicle to make repairs have been out of the question?

It would have likely take them a month to prep a shuttle mission for rescue - and that would have been a rush job. The shuttle does not contain the consumables to sustain a crew for this long - especially at the end of the mission.

They have taken pictures of suspected shuttle damage in the past (a lost drag chute door, in this case), but the picture was less than useful.

Columbia was unable (due to its weight) to reach the space station. It may not have even been equipped to dock, given the equipment for this mission (a full-bay science lab).

Even if they could have gotten to the station, they would have had to perform individual EVAs to reach the station. The shuttle may not have been equipped for this - I don't know the exact details.

-Darin

Originally posted by Ted the Led:
would sending up a second vehicle to make repairs have been out of the question?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That would take too long. A shuttle doesn't carry unlimited consumables. Even if you had enough air, food and water the APUs would need fuel to continue making electricity.

I don't think you can refuel the APUs in orbit so even if the tiles are repaired the craft would be dead and can't be recovered.

Likewise even if the Russians had an extra Progress resupply rocket ready to launch, could reprogram the orbit (maybe), were willing to sell the launch to NASA (no problem – the Russians are the free-market capitalists of space these days), and Progress could reach the Shuttle's orbit (unlikely, but they might meet halfway), and if the astronauts could get supplies off of Progress (unlikely), it wouldn't do any good since not all consumables can be replaced in orbit.

The airlock is heavy and I think it is sometimes removed if it can't of any use in the mission and the weight is needed for payload.

Going to the space station isn't an option. Its orbit is very highly inclined (due to the location of the Russian launch facilities) and expensive in fuel. Also, the station's systems can't accommodate so many people – as many as possible (3-4?) would have to leave immediately on the emergency return rocket (a Russian capsule always present) and there might still be too many left. Cooling would be my first concern: people generate a lot of heat and cooling is a big problem in space.

Lastly notice there isn't a toolbox "Tile repairs: Space Shuttle". Each tile is different with a custom shape and thickness. The adhesive probably wouldn't dry properly in a vacuum. It might not be possible to do the repair in zero-G with nothing to push against

I'd be happy to discuss the technical details, if we only knew a little bit more to discuss! The latest technical info I've gotten from the various news reports is that there was a rapid set of failures right before they lost contact. They lost temperature sensors on the left wing, and then they lost pressure sensors in the landing gear, and they say there was "indication of excessive heating of the superstructure" I'm not sure what that means specifically, if the temp sensors were going up before they cut out or what.

They would have to have lost a large number of tiles to cause something like this. Though I've only seen it played on CNN it sure didn't look like the insulation had knocked anything off the orbiter skin. But you really can't tell from what they were playing.

They can replace tiles in orbit, that was one of the things they worked very hard on during the initial design of the thing. I remember specifically watching something on the very involved process of doing so. But as you say they are all different, and the patches were made from generic tiles. I don't know if they still carry that kit or not, and if they didn't have an airlock due to weight limits then it wouldn't do them any good anyway as they couldn't have gotten outside to do it.

But just loosing one, or even several tiles is not enough to cause the skin to fail. The shuttle routinely looses a tile or 2 and there are a few very vital places where loosing one is bad generally it's not that big a problem.

Quality details will be very hard to come by for some time. The best source for informed speculation probably won't be the media but reading Henry Spencer's postings on usenet.

Apparently the Arm was removed for this flight.

If a tile's neighbor were lost I'd worry about the exposed edges and heating-induced flexure of the surface the tile bonded too. But you're right – this has happened before and is probably very well studied.

James, sorry, my sentance structuring seems to be degraded somewhat in my last post.

I am very interested in following the usenet posting you mention, can you post more specifics as to the group he's posting in so that we can tune in?

I know that it will be a while before NASA even has any details, but I do want to follow along.

Thanks,
Also James

I wasn't referring to any particular posting from Henry – I haven't seen one from him yet on this topic – but rather any he may make. Look up this Google link or for older postings link. Henry won't have more information than we will but will be better equipped to interpret it and more likely to know who to e-mail and ask about important points.

There are number of reports the debris was seen coming off the shuttle over California which would be minutes, not seconds, before anyone onboard or in control realized there was a problem.

The ceramic tile they use are very custom. I hear you can almost touch them a few seconds after taking them out of a kiln. They displace heat that fast. I also hear some of the new military body armor use ceramic plates instead of steel. There is no new technology to replace this stuff yet. I guess the shuttle program will be grounded for a while.

Originally posted by CiTY:
The ceramic tile they use are very custom. I hear you can almost touch them a few seconds after taking them out of a kiln.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are incredibly poor conductors of heat. You can in fact touch them that quickly: they're still very hot (glowing) just under the surface but that heat can't transfer through the tile easily to your fingers.

I guess the shuttle program will be grounded for a while.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There will be political reasons not to waffle this time. Congress will not be happy buying launches from the Russians. Moreover the Chinese will do a manned launch later this year and the US will not want to be left out.

This does accentuate the lack of launcher planning at NASA. Basically the plan is to fly the Shuttles until they all crash and hope that someone else comes up with a different plan before that happens. That looks less attractive now.

I just now found out, via KING-5 television here in Seattle. No cable ya know.

I was out in the town centre buying more torch bits when I passed by a branch of Dixon's (A TV and hi fi centre) and the pictures were splashed across all the TV's in the shop. I saw the words "news flash" and went in to investigate. Trade had come to a standstill as customers watched in disbelief and despair, as the videotape of the break up was played over and over again. There was a stunned silence in the shop as the names of all the astronauts were read out, along with thier pictures, happy faces with a thirst for adventure wanting to take thier place in space history.
The shuttle is an amazing relic from another age, and has been a remarkable feat of engineering technology. Columbia was at least 22 years old, and had flown millions of trouble-free miles.
Wiithout it, we would not have the amazing sattellite technology which we take for granted nowadays. Sattellite TV, ENG, GPS, international phone conversations, reliable weather forecasting and military early warning systems would have never happened without this amazing spacecraft.
Looking at its age, you will not find many aeroplanes in regular service that are as old as Columbia, or cars for that matter. Columbia was the last relic of that age that began with Niel Armstrong setting foot on the moon, and we saw marvellous developments such as Concorde.
The Eighties saw the commercial development of the Shuttle program, but it never recieved the spotlight as it was no longer a big news event; where events such as the Falklands war and then the Gulf War pushed it off our TV's for a while.
The International Space Station was its latest triumph, a platform by which man could launch himself from this planet's grasp and reach for the stars, inspired by all the great sci-fi writers such as Arhur C Clarke, Gene Roddenberry, etc.
It is with great sadness that we in CPF mourn the loss of the Columbia and its brave crew, some of whom were not much older than the Columbia herself. We must as a planetary community continue in thier footsteps to create a better understanding of our Universe, and of each other.

RIP Columbia and her crew.

...Matt...

Originally posted by James S:
They can replace tiles in orbit, that was one of the things they worked very hard on during the initial design of the thing.

But just loosing one, or even several tiles is not enough to cause the skin to fail. The shuttle routinely looses a tile or 2 and there are a few very vital places where loosing one is bad generally it's not that big a problem.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Apparently the tile repair kit hasn't flown since STS-2?

In any case without the Arm there's no way to get to the damaged tile. Even if a SAFE suit were aboard and could get to the damaged tile I don't think there would be anything to grab ahold of to brace for work. Such an attempt might be suicidal for the astronaut since SAFE might not have the propellant to get back to the airlock (SAFE is an emergency means of getting back to the shuttle if an astronaut floats free of the Arm somehow and has no other means of rescue).

It appears that most experts also believe that losing a tile even in a bad place should not be fatal. We'll see. Breakup in this case started early, well before the crew (or ground control) was aware of it. Competent observers in California saw multiple traces in the sky. If these sightings pan out it's a little hard to understand what parts have enough mass to be seen from the ground once separated yet wouldn't be obvious to the crew or ground control. The final breakup apparently occurred at the apex of an S curve so we'll see if analysis shows that happened to be a point of high loading on the left wing.

To Empowertorch

Matt:

Thank you for a beutifully written piece.

Amen Empowertorch, God Bless them and strengthen their families.

Originally posted by James Van Artsdalen:
I don't think you can refuel the APUs in orbit so even if the tiles are repaired the craft would be dead and can't be recovered.

The airlock is heavy and I think it is sometimes removed if it can't of any use in the mission and the weight is needed for payload.

Going to the space station isn't an option. Its orbit is very highly inclined (due to the location of the Russian launch facilities) and expensive in fuel. Also, the station's systems can't accommodate so many people – as many as possible (3-4?) would have to leave immediately on the emergency return rocket (a Russian capsule always present) and there might still be too many left. Cooling would be my first concern: people generate a lot of heat and cooling is a big problem in space.

Lastly notice there isn't a toolbox "Tile repairs: Space Shuttle". Each tile is different with a custom shape and thickness. The adhesive probably wouldn't dry properly in a vacuum. It might not be possible to do the repair in zero-G with nothing to push against

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, time for corrections:

The APUs can operate from external fuel. The connections are in the cargo bay and have been used on long missions. However, I'm not sure it's possible to add fuel to the APU tanks, and I'm not sure you can land on external tanks strapped into the cargo bay. There is going to be a limit pretty quickly to in-orbit loiter that can't be added by in-orbit resupply but I'm not sure what it is (CO2 scrubbers? APU fuel filters?).

The airlock is not removed. It is necessary (along with 2-3 spacesuits) for some emergency procedures if the cargo bay doors won't close by themselves. There are handholds and such so that this procedure can be done without the Arm. It's the space station dock that can be removed if needed.

I've found numerous references from Henry Spencer that I.S.S. can't support a full shuttle crew even if the I.S.S. crew left immediately on the lifeboat. He's almost always right about these things, but I'm not sure what the limiting factor would be and how many days you might get away with. The I.S.S. lifeboat is a Soyuz that can carry three people and no more, even in an emergency. Some NASA astronauts don't fit and can't stay over on I.S.S. until NASA builds a full sized lifeboat (which won't happen).

There is a tile repair kit but it hasn't been carried since STS-2. A lot of work went into it but its effectiveness is unclear. It wouldn't have done any good on this flight since the Arm had been removed and there was no way to get to the worksite and no way to do the work without an Arm to brace against in zero-G.

..do you think this forum could have come up with the solutions that saved the Apollo 13 ? Or would that have been "impossible" -- ? ...

Originally posted by Ted the Led:
..do you think this forum could have come up with the solutions that saved the Apollo 13 ? Or would that have been "impossible" -- ? ...

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There were a lot of problems that had to be solved on Apollo 13, many of which weren't a matter of a Smart Guy saying Eureka!

The power problem is most obvious: a lot of people spent days pouring over a mountain of schematics and subsystem specifications looking for a few milliamps here and there.

The "duct-tape" CO2 canister adapter is another example: they didn't dream up "just use the tape and make one!" they worked out, in a ground Apollo mockup that had actual inventory, what items could be bent into the right shape, that the adhesive would hold, and that the pressure wouldn't destroy it. This was all done with real items known to be identical to what the astronauts had and tested on systems identical to Apollo 13's. It's likely that everyone on Earth familiar enough with flight inventory and systems to have done this successfully was already on-site at MSC/JSC working on it...

The return flight plan is something that might have been worked out independent of NASA resources. The course corrections couldn't have been worked out without their tracking data but the plan could have been.