Throw vs. Flood

I am a contrarian here at CPF; I prefer flood+lumens over throw, so that is how I design my lights. If I need throw, I drag along my M4.

Someone should really do a controlled test sometime. I'll bet you would find that the flashlight is a much more useful tool when it is floody. If you think about it, throw narrows your beam, so for a typical flashlight task, like changing a tire at night, you have to constantly move the light around, and it is often offering too much illumination in too tight of an area.

Whereas it really is very rare to need the capability to spot an individual or an item 50 or 100 yards away.

More often, you are changing a tire, or looking under the bed or workbench, or even checking out a bump in the night.

When one of those typical tasks comes up, I want LIGHT and LOTS OF IT. And I don't want to have to search around with the beam to see what I am looking at.

Do an experiment. At night, with all the lights off, pretend you are looking for something, or checking out a possible intruder, or even taking a walk.

What so you want? A pencil-thin 120 lumen beam, that leaves the surrounding area relatively dark?

Or do you want to light up the whole d*mn field or room?

When we searched my neighborhood for a missing brother and sister, I used the M4 for looking down alleys and in driveways. Now, that thing has throw.

So you really can't impress me with the throw of anything by Arc or Fenix, or an L-1, or an A19, or an E2. But, when I want to light up a room, I put the M4 away and grab an L4 or even my ML-1. If I think I need a pistol as well, I grab the M3.

So, all I am trying to say is that IMNSHO, I think there is way too much emphasis on throw.

As my dad used to say, get the proper tool for the job. And I think pocket lights are a tool for local illumination.

Besides, think about this:

The people I have tried to impress with my lights, are always more amazed at the way one will light up an entire room, rather than the way another will put 120 lumens into a 6" circle. And isn't that just a small part of why we love our lights?

JMNSHO

YMMV

I 100% agree

You are saying that you have no need for throw, except when you need throw. I could not agree more.

cheers

All true valid points...

When I trek throught the dark woods, I always carry the M4 or M6 (SF) to ensure distance between myself and the wild boar & gators. However, I really enjoy the beam of the U2 which has a nice mix of flood and throw when walking a path or maybe a P90 / P91. Peripheal light will most always assist one in performing a task - whether fixing a tire or engaging a tactical target close quarters.

I think that is what makes the MN21 / M6 so useful. In my experience the 500 lumen MN21 doesn't really out throw the 225 lumen MN16. But the MN21 has throw and flood given the target is far enough down range. If you beam the top of a 200 year old oak with the MN16 at distance - that's exactly what you see - a tree top. If you beam it with the MN21 at the same distance, you see the entire tree.

So I think flood characteristics are as important far away as it is close up.

I'll kinda agree with you, but you can have BOTH throw, and wonderful spill in the same light.

You mentioned Fenix, the Cree models throw like crazy, but have abundent bright spill.

The Streamlight 4AA Lux also has these properties.

I love the time we are in, with lights that were imaginary, a couple of years ago.

80-100 lumens in a single AA/AAA light ? Damn !

Yep, most times I rely on flood, but many small current edc promote throw than flood for obvious reasons. In order for a flood lite to excell, it therefore needs high lumens/brightness so I personally chose to have more than one to cover the flood and throw expected with current offerings. Those days along time ago, a maglite with variable focus does have both flood and throw. I have some of them, but rarely use them now since I have smaller and better ones at my disposal. Summarise, I need both throw and flood equally and still searching for the ultimate lite to fulfill that criteria.

One of the big reasons I still really like my Arc LSL is the great flood of light it provides while still giving enough throw for most uses.

Geoff

I like throw with good spill exactly how the Surefire U2 works for me. Flood is good as long as it can throw at least 100 ft.

Flying Turtle said:

One of the big reasons I still really like my Arc LSL is the great flood of light it provides while still giving enough throw for most uses.

Geoff

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Its good to have both,

Flying Turtle said:

One of the big reasons I still really like my Arc LSL is the great flood of light it provides while still giving enough throw for most uses.

Geoff

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+1




be lucky....

jumpstat said:

Summarise, I need both throw and flood equally and still searching for the ultimate lite to fulfill that criteria.

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Problem is, some applications require mostly spill, others throw. Optimizing a light for one necessarily precludes the other. It's a real pain to have 2 edc lights! (Especially when you already carry a 442 and 492 LuxI and a 532 laser!!:thumbsdow) and going home for the correct torch is usually not an option (at least for me.) I'm not aware of any focusable optical systems that do both equally well. (And it would still need several brightness levels, as well.) I think this leads to the compromise of a wide, even spill with a bright hot spot for throw. I, like many others, find the spill helps in navigating large, dark areas that also have stuff to be looked at farther away. I'm sure everyone has their preferred level of spill:throw ratio and beam/spill angle, too. Won't anyone ever develop that one perfect light? :lolsign: I'm not made of money, you know!!

it all depends on our personal uses doesn't it? =)

i like throwy lights when i'm outdoors, when i need something to punch a good distance into the darkness. as focused as possible is the rule of the day (night) for me, since it'll get wider as it goes farther anyway =) it's easy to illuminate something close with the sidespill of a thrower, but almost impossible to throw with a flooder. For that, i have my Mac Mini-HID



but when i'm indoors, i like lights with floody beams. and in these cases, throwy lights with bright sidespill are no substitute. i was navigating my way through a large room (library with lots of bookshelves) recently, and had my P1D CE and Jil Intelli with me. the P1D CE has throw and a good bright sidespill because of the cree. the Jil Intelli has a much dimmer (overall) beam, with a joker LuxIII under a non-joker reflector. The Jil Intelli in this case was much more useful than the P1D CE because of its very floody beam. because my eyes automatically adjust to the bright hotspot of the P1D CE, the spill seemed dimmer, and all i got when trying to "survey" the large library chamber, with its bookshelves and corridors with the P1D CE was tunnel vision. the comparatively dimmer JIL, and even my MrBulk slim-Chameleon (with floodier beam than standard) were *such* revelations with their less punchy beams, allowing me to register much wider swaths of library faster and easier.

the same goes for my old Pila GL4 (195 lumens) and my minimag hotwire (211 bulb lumens with TL-3 bulb) with BHC-mcr27. both have approx. 200 bulb lumens lamps.

the Pila GL4, however, with its smooth floody beam:


is, to me, so much more impressive, in this case, than the TL-3 minimag:


or even, to a degree, for the spill, even edges out the G&P Scorpion R500--look at the middle and right side exposures in full size (click on the pics):

Yes, I agree, a nice, even beam is, overall, more useful. I have a SL Jr Lux with Fraen -HNB3 optic that is very even, and at medium ranges, extremely useful. Problem is, it's not wide enough for close-in stuff, and it is too floody for anything far away. How about, rather than carrying along 2 or 3 lights, have one light and several snap-on lenses that flawlessly change the beam angle of an already reasonably even beam?

totally agree.

Try out the P91 sometime. WALL.
the beam spreads about a foot for every 2 feet away the source is. So across a room(like say 15 feet), the hot spot is as high as a doorway.

I wish Seoul would produce a 4chip version of the P4. So we could make LuxV style beams with double the efficiency. (or double the light) My Nuwai LuxV is one of my favorite beams for indoors... In very dark areas outdoors it works fine too- just doesn't punch down the trail very far. I use the P91 and HO-9 incans to punch farther. (the P91 does it with overkill lumens, the HO-9 does it with a more concentrated beam)

mdocod, is your Nuwai stock?
If so, swap the Led. You would be surprised. More than twice the throw of the stock Led. Distance about 60 feet, both on high.

Stock ALX352-L:



With WX0S-star:



Best regards

____
Tom

funny you say that.

There's a WWOS with my name on it somewhere in the mail system. It's destined for my 253L

If true, full flood is what you want then watch for this product available in the spring. We presented the CFL1 FLASHFLOOD at SHOT 2007. The beam pattern is either all hot spot or all sidespill depending on your point of view. It is 2 X CR123A with TypeIII HA and a variable intensity control feature.

Follow this link to some photos. We tried hard to show off the beam. We will try to get some outdoor shots soon.
http://bpond.smugmug.com/gallery/2024704#129207926

Guess I should tell you for a point of reference that the beam angle is 40 degrees.

Thanks,
Bob

I actually carry two white coin cell lights for exactly this reason (two Delextreme Photon Clones with substituted 50Cd Jeleds) One one, I left the LED intact to have a tight hotspot. On the other, I sanded the LED completely flat, and wrapped the sides of the LED in reflective tape (to cut direct glare down) -- this now provides pure flood which is absolutely awesome for reading up close, or even for lighting an entire room up with a coincell light. In this case, carrying two lights is no problem -- and you'd be hard pressed to find a single light as small as two coincells with variable beam pattern.

I would say that these, and a cheesy 3AAA direct drive light that I threw a Cree into are my most used lights -- the 3AAA light produces mostly flood (it's a bit ringy, but it gets the job doen) -- a fairly bright but large and spreat out hot zone, followed by the direct spill. I leave it in the car (and often end up retrieving it as it's the best small floodlight I have) for looking around for dropped items, or changing tires etc.

As for throw, I'd be more inclined to simply have a dedicated light that is optimized for throw. It's fairly rare that I actually need throw -- really almost never for EDC.

bpond said:

If true, full flood is what you want then watch for this product available in the spring. We presented the CFL1 FLASHFLOOD at SHOT 2007. The beam pattern is either all hot spot or all sidespill depending on your point of view. It is 2 X CR123A with TypeIII HA and a variable intensity control feature.

Follow this link to some photos. We tried hard to show off the beam. We will try to get some outdoor shots soon.
http://bpond.smugmug.com/gallery/2024704#129207926

Guess I should tell you for a point of reference that the beam angle is 40 degrees.

Thanks,
Bob

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Looks like it projects an image of the moon complete with crators. :huh:
I don't like that it doesnt tail stand.

carbine15 said:

Looks like it projects an image of the moon complete with crators.

I don't like that it doesnt tail stand.

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Carbine15, thanks for the input. Two comments on my end.

1. You are right about the look of the pattern. It is highly exaggerated in the photo and is a non issue in real world use. I thought about touching it up in Photoshop but one thing I did not want to do was have it look fake as I have seen on at least one website.
2. That photo was actually taken prior to a very recent change in the design that will be part of the production unit. The end cap is going to be different with the tail switch recessed allowing for tail stand.
3. If tail standing is important you may also like this other feature. We have decided on a design to hold the lanyard that is actually quite unique, I am not sure I have seen it anywhere before. There will be a substantial O-ring that will be on the body to which the lanyard will be attached. The O-ring can be positioned anywhere on the main tube which will allow you to either hang it facing down inside your tent or if you place it about halfway down the tube it will hang level. I have to admit we tripped over that idea!!!!!

Bob