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Thread: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

  1. #61
    *Flashaholic* Burgess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Good point, orionlion82 -

    I've always felt that the reason flashlight mfrs. include
    new batteries in their package is to make the

    --- all-important First Impression ---

    a real eye-opener !

    Something to make the user say "WOW" !


    When somebody hasta' scrounge up a couple of AA's from
    their TV remote-control, they simply won't get the full-effect.


    I think Energizer L91's would certainly achieve this.


    Are u listening, Fenix ?

  2. #62
    Flashaholic* Ty_Bower's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Thanks for the good work, Chevrofreak.

    It's comforting to see the L1D-CE lasts about the same amount of time on Turbo as it does on High. This is as expected, since both settings put out essentially the same amount of light.
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  3. #63

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    L91s cost considerably more than alkalines. I see no real point in inflating the cost of a product with these.

    With the L2D there's also the fact when first fired up, the voltage from the two L91s causes the lower levels to be pretty much identical - that gives the impression of shoddy design.

    Considering the battery life when using NiMH is still exceptionally good, I don't think the extra cost can be justified.

    What fenix SHOULD do is make it very clear that the preferred food of these flashlights is NiMH or Lithium - Alkalines are certainly usable but do not allow for optimum performance.

    Hell, if they stuck a condensed version of a Chevro-esque graph on the packaging \ website that'd be absolutely awesome!w
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  4. #64
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    Thinking Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    I'm a noob; am I right in interpreting the following graph that L1D CE is more efficient than P1D CE?



    Many thanks,
    KK

  5. #65
    Flashaholic* chevrofreak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by r0b0r
    Sorry to be repetitive, but I'm curious as to the tail end of the L1D's runtime.
    Once the output can no longer exceed that of Low - how much time is there until there's no light at all?

    Thankyou very much

    (If no one has tried this, I'll get a flat-ish alkaline \ NiMH and see how it goes.... might not be good for the NiMH but it doesn't bother me to loose one for science)

    Alkalines can run a very very long time at the low output level because even though the light output dropped dramatically on the high levels the cells still have quite a lot of power left in them. If you use the light intermittently the cell will have a chance to recover more and the tail at the end will be shorter than it would be with a straight through run like I do when testing.

    I don't have any actual data right now as I'm still quite swamped with runtime tests. I'll see if I can do another alkaline graph allowing it to run completely dead. It may be a while before I can get to it though.

  6. #66
    Flashaholic* chevrofreak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by kurni
    I'm a noob; am I right in interpreting the following graph that L1D CE is more efficient than P1D CE?



    Many thanks,
    KK
    That is a possibility, but I think it is more likely that one of the cells doesn't have the claimed capacity, or that one has more than the claimed capacity.

  7. #67
    Flashaholic* Ty_Bower's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by chevrofreak
    That is a possibility, but I think it is more likely that one of the cells doesn't have the claimed capacity, or that one has more than the claimed capacity.
    Is it also possible that one of the lights on the graph has a Cree with a much better forward voltage? I understand there is quite a bit of variation in the Vf of these Crees.
    The only reason a great many American families don’t own an elephant is that they have never been offered an elephant for a dollar down and easy monthly payments.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    and about the 14500 750 mah cell, it's not really dangerous for the cree led the 3,6 voltage for a long time ?

    And the L1D ce got 3 modes too with 14500 ? max, high and low if i see your great graphs chevrofreak ?

    thanks you

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by zerafull
    and about the 14500 750 mah cell, it's not really dangerous for the cree led the 3,6 voltage for a long time ?

    And the L1D ce got 3 modes too with 14500 ? max, high and low if i see your great graphs chevrofreak ?

    thanks you
    I'm always curious if it's actually hurting the LED; I'm guessing that at least 3.6V overdrives the LED. 3.6V bypass Fenix circuit so you loose the low, medium & high; you only have turbo, strobe & SOS.

    Some of us have contacted AW for 3V 14500, but it seems that he's still waiting for more demand.

  10. #70
    gunga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    I think there was aa few hundred people asking for the 3V 14500.

    I wonder how much interest is needed?

  11. #71

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    thank you kurni
    but the sos mode is in "general mode" (60 lumens) and not turbo mode (120 lumens + strobe) it's strange :-)
    it's not a problem the over-voltage ? okay thank

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by zerafull
    and about the 14500 750 mah cell, it's not really dangerous for the cree led the 3,6 voltage for a long time ?
    The current-draw makes the problem, not the voltage. direct-drive in a fenix means that there is no current-regulating circuit or resistor, and that's the danger for the LED.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    I'm now confused how L1D circuit works.
    Last edited by kurni; 03-18-2007 at 12:26 AM.

  14. #74

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    on second thought... i really had my info wrong.
    post deleted.
    Last edited by orionlion82; 03-21-2007 at 03:53 AM.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    As is said "A picture is worth a million words". I think Chevrofreak has out done this with his graphs..

    Hellofajob..

    I would be curious as to you setup for logging all the info. I would guess a dmm with usb port for logging, or scope?. Hey just guessing..

    ThanX
    X.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgess
    Good point, orionlion82 -

    I've always felt that the reason flashlight mfrs. include
    new batteries in their package is to make the

    --- all-important First Impression ---

    a real eye-opener !

    Something to make the user say "WOW" !


    When somebody hasta' scrounge up a couple of AA's from
    their TV remote-control, they simply won't get the full-effect.


    I think Energizer L91's would certainly achieve this.


    Are u listening, Fenix ?
    after a bit of reading up- lithiums in series in the hands of everyone that buys a flashlight might be a rather - well, unsteady idea...

  17. #77
    *Flashaholic* Burgess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Re: Lithiums in series


    That's why i specified Energizer Lithium L91 cells !


    No problems on record of THOSE cells causing any safety issues !


    There are several different types of "Lithium Batteries".


    Trouble is, most people don't know the difference.


    They just see the words Lithium Battery, and get scared !


  18. #78
    Flashaholic* Oddjob's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Thanks for the graphs!
    I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

  19. #79

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by chevrofreak
    That is a possibility, but I think it is more likely that one of the cells doesn't have the claimed capacity, or that one has more than the claimed capacity.
    I've run a lot of discharge tests on NiMH cells. Almost none have the claimed capacity, and some are more blatantly overrated than others. But I also found something that most people don't realize -- there's a large difference in how completely various chargers charge the cells. So even people using the very same cells can get some pretty different results.

    Please add my thanks for all the great work!

    c_c

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    There’s no logical reason for me to want to know… but does anyone know how long the L1D-CE would run on strobe (on NiMH’s)? I’ve been playing around leaving all the lights off, and it on strobe, which is great, and got curious about the runtime. I’d hazard a guess it’d be roughly double that of it on turbo, minus however much it takes to run the strobe circuitry?

  21. #81
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    It is a shame to put Duracell 2650mAh NiMH sticker together with such a fine flashlight!
    These batteries are having horrific self discharge rate so that after 3 days there is no juice left in it at all.
    Fine flashlight deserve fine batteries ... Sanyo, Energizer to name some.

  22. #82
    Flashaholic* LowBat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by XCandela
    It is a shame to put Duracell 2650mAh NiMH sticker together with such a fine flashlight!
    These batteries are having horrific self discharge rate so that after 3 days there is no juice left in it at all.
    Fine flashlight deserve fine batteries ... Sanyo, Energizer to name some.
    You seem to have reversed results. Most here find Energizer is the inferior brand while Duracell out performs them.

  23. #83
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Did you try to use Duracell NiMH batteris day after you charged them? Are you planing to top up your batteries every single day - very handy eh?
    Duracell 2650mAh NiMH are complitelly empty - self discharged ~3 days after being charged and that's well known fact thus in no way outperforming Energizer 2500mAh.

    ... all this above is for rechargeable. I don't care much about primary cells.

  24. #84
    *Flashaholic* Burgess's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Methinks u have a bad batch of Duracell 2650 NiMH cells.

    I have 16 of 'em, and they've all provided GREAT service
    over the past year. Even after 2 weeks from charger.


    BTW, i understand that these Duracells are manufactured by Sanyo, in Japan.


    Hope this is helpful.

  25. #85

    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgess
    Methinks u have a bad batch of Duracell 2650 NiMH cells.

    I have 16 of 'em, and they've all provided GREAT service
    over the past year. Even after 2 weeks from charger.


    BTW, i understand that these Duracells are manufactured by Sanyo, in Japan.


    Hope this is helpful.
    +1
    It was all of my Energizer 2500 that have horrible self-discharge. The Duracells are so much better.

  26. #86
    Flashaholic* LowBat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    I gave away my Energizer 2500's and replaced them with Duracell 2650's. The result was no more quirky recharge issues and improved storage retention. The Energizers also had a bad habit of releasing gas when in fast/high drain devices. As Burgess pointed out, you may have received a bad batch.

  27. #87
    Flashaholic* chevrofreak's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    My expenrience with the Duracell 2650's was that they developed a fast dicharge rate fairly early on. My Enerigzer 2500's have been fine so far, and my Sanyo 2500's have been kind of a mixed bag.

    I bought a second set of Duracell 2650's after the performance of my old set started to drop, and so far these new ones are doing fine. I'm trying something new with this set, I'm letting the lights run until they're nearly dead before I recharge the cells, and so far they have not developed a high self discharge rate like the old set has.

    I sometimes wonder if not fully cycling our cells is actually causing them to start this high self discharge thing, so as an experiment I've been cycling my Sanyo cells repeatedly, allowing them to run completely down before charging. I think it has actually revived them to the point where they hold their charge longer. When I finish "reviving" the Sanyo 2500's I'll try doing the same thing for my old set of Duracell 2650's.

  28. #88
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    I found a bad cell the other day via an odd coincidence. I turned on my L2d-CE and stood it on it's tail. After about 30 seconds, it fell over all by itself. "That's odd", I thought. When I looked at the tail cap the rubber cap covering the switch was bubbled out a little. It was growing as I watched. After another 30 seconds it had inflated into a hemisphere. I unscrewed the cap and it instantly deflated back to flat. Neither cell was hot. Both looked fine. They were both freshly charged. One was obviously venting. After a little detective work that involved switching out single cells, I found the bad one. There was NO VISIBLE SIGN that the battery was bad.

  29. #89
    Flashaholic* cratz2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Hrmm... I've had generally good results with both the Energizer 2500s and the Duracell 2650s. I have probably 16 of the Energizers and 8 of the 2650s. As far as a 3 day self discharge, I recently got a new digital camera that takes 2 AA cells. I charged 4 of the 2650s in a 4 channel charger (as in you can charge each cell individually) and depleted them 3 times each (2 each in 2 different Inova X1s and a pair of them in an Inova Radiant 1xAA all bought on clearance at Target). I let them run about 4 hours each then topped them all off.

    4 days later, I took 432 pictures using 2 cells.

    Camera is a Canon A530.

    If these cells consistantly self-discharge in 3 days, this would obviously be impossible.

    With the 2500 cells, of the 8 cells I tested individually, I found one definately held less of a charge and discharged or self-discharged more rapidly than the others.

    I think the biggest issue with NiMHs might be the VERY dumb chargers that a lot of users probably use. I have 2 of the slide compartment chargers that come with the Energizer 2500 cells, a 15 Minute Ray-O-Vac charger for 2 cells, a generic charger and a Duracell charger that as mentioned, you can charge one cell at a time. It isn't particularly a fast or slow charger and takes about 3 hours to charge a well depleted 2500 NiMH cell. If I take 4 of the Energizer cells that have been similarly (but not identically) discharged, and put them in the Energizer slide charger and let them run until the LED goes out, I can take those same cells, put them in the Duracell charger and get anywhere from 15 minutes to a full hour of additional charging time in the Duracell charger.

    I assume this means that the cells were discharged to varying degrees and that the Energizer charger is too dumb to charge each cell fully. Remember, the Energizer charger must charge cells in pairs.

    This is the equilavent of taking two identical Honda Civics that have between 400 and 1000 miles on them and putting 4 gallons of fuel in them - on top of an unknown amount of fuel already in the tank - and then seeing how far each will go. Sure, you know far each one went, but you have no idea what kind of mileage either of them actually got because you have no idea how full either tank was before the test was started.
    "That's what makes SF so badass... we've got the best flashlights."

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Fenix L2D CE and L1D CE runtime graphs

    Yep, these chargers that charge two cells on one channel are absolutely useless. If one cell is partially charged and the other is empty, the partially charged one will get WAY overcharged. I think it is set up this way in order to FORCE people to ruin perfectly good cells so that they will have to buy more. Each and every cell should be on it's own independent channel. The chargers mentioned here are like that. The cheap chargers that require two or four cell loads only are to be avoided. Either that or you must keep track of the discharge state of each cell to safely use them.

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