Business Economics and free cash flow.

I think when all of the brass auctions are done and over with. There will be some surprises out there.

The company and many others out there often use cash generating products not as a long term solution in themselves but as revenue generators that allow them to reach their real goal. I think that maybe a run of 100 of these at a retail of between $80 and $100 might be possible and could give some short-term cash flow that could help defray some costs allowing the Arc-LS and other future projects a chance to develop. New technology would not have to be developed. The learning was done with the Arc-AAA Standard and LS. Lack of free cash flow rather than paper profits have done in alot of promising ideas and business ventures. A run of Arc-LS's in brass next year could be a bank breaker and could give a temporary cash flow boost that would help keep the technology moving.

Sorry if I sound preachy. Just my thoughts.

It would also be nice if some mark where to be made that would show that these were genuine 1 of 8 Arc's.

The paper would do if this is not really possible.

sorry, I may have failed to mention that I was commenting on the brass Arc's

You just really want a brass LS don't you.

YC

i think everyone here knows exactly how much you like brass...

I really don't know if 100 of the brass Arc AAAs would sell, especially at prices of around $100. At the moment, I think probably around 20 or so would sell if available, but once CPF people had theirs, I don't think too many more would sell at that sort of price.

I think that even here, there are only a very small group who are willing to put up that sort of money for a brass Arc AAA...

I agree with the concept here, but don't know that it would work in this situation..

Graham

Look how quickly those 110 CPF Edition Arcs went...

Like JonSidneyB mentioned, the R&D has been done. You could make a batch of 100 Brass CPF Arcs (nothing fancy with the LED, just make the bodies brass, use whatever LED you can get that emits visible light), engrave them CPF Member Edition and/or offer custom engraving, and sell them for $65.00 to $85.00, maybe even closer to $100.00, pretty easily.

Heck, just make some brass bodies and let people attach their existing Arc AAA head to them!

You can be sure I considered it too. Some points..

Against:
- Brass may give people the wrong impression about us. They might see us as making collectors flashlights instead of serious flashlights. We want our flashlights to be used each day and for serious work!
- Selling an Arc-AAA for $100 is not so bad in my opinion when it has a nuclear reactor for that price. But when it's value is because of it's limited production or unusual metal? You can see that I am fairly pragmatic when it comes to flashlights. They should simply work, be as bright as possible and be smart so you can concentrate on the task instead of the flashlight (smaller, tougher, more intelligent). Hey, that's a good marketing slogan, (in tough guy voice) "lights so smart, you can concentrate on whatever it was you brought the light along for in the first place". Too kinds of people, destination and journey types. I guess you can see what kind I am...
- Collectors flashlights are somewhat elitest. Only a few people can own them and the rest are left unhappy.
- Hey, are we already auctioning a bunch of brass Arcs right now? Doing another limited production on these would lower the value of the first set. Or they may increase it, because more people are aware of their value since the product is more recognized.


And For:
- Obviously people want these, why not give them what they want? At least with brass, etc the new model doesn't require hardly any R&D budget compared to say an entirely new housing like the Arc-AA, etc.
- If I want to be more pragmatic, I can come out with a titanium or stainless steel version. The brass can be coated with chrome even. How about an "au natural" bare aluminum version?
- Limited runs generate excitement about the company and appeal to a different customer set or to the same customers in a unique way. Either way, more products is usally a good thing.

Hmm..

Peter Gransee

I still believe that making more of the brass ones would lower the value of the existing ones, as well as the price you could sell new ones for. The currently selling ones are only getting that sort of bidding because there are 8 of them.

If 100 were produced, I honestly can't see them all achieving the same price level (I'd be surprise to see them get above $50 or so)

The other thing is, are there enough people out there who would buy them at such a high price? If you did go ahead and produce more, I think 100 is far too many. Perhaps 10 or 20 more, but thats all.

Its not a good idea to get caught in the 'Special Edition' trap, where a 'special' or 'limited' edition is produced, but since it sells so well, more are produced, this negating the benefit of it being 'limited'. This is happening more and more with DVDs, where studios keep releasing so-called special editions which are hardly special at all apart from the name. Fans feel the need to buy them for fear of missing out, but end up feeling considerable anger at the studios for abusing the trust (based on the assumption that something called 'special' or 'limited' is actually that)

My personal opinion is to leave it as is, and concentrate on your core business..

Sorry for the rant, but as a DVD collector, I've gotten annoyed with this 'limited edition' thing before..

Graham

I agree with Graham. The auctions for the 8 brass AAA's is to raise money to help David support CPF. So leave it at that & let the people that pay the high price have a one (8) of a kind light. TX

peter i say go ahead with the different or limited editions.ill buy em.

also i guess you might as well give us what we want!

Well, I know I raise a lot of hypothetical questions and only able to follow through with about 1 in 10, but I like to dream too.

How about no more brass Arc but instead a limited number of titaniums (1 bar =~ 30 pieces)? The metal would be bare titanium alloy (the best of course) in all its glory. The titanium is strong and corrosion resistant. I also personally like titanium. They would be ultra pricey though, just warning you. I asked our machinist and he said definately over $100 just for the parts.

A less expensive option is brushed or polished stainless steel. Lot easier to cut.

We may have to buy special tools to cut the titanium wheras the steel could probally be cut with the tools on hand.

The titanium would be quite lightweight and quite strong. I hear that they are a bear to polish out scratches though. Have you heard this? I have been talking to some jewelers about a certain titanium project and they are all saying that is hard to get the scratches out.

Peter Gransee

Mmm...titanium..I'd be in that. As for scratches, wouldn't bother me. Gives it character, I reckon.

My Seiko Kinetic watch is the titanium alloy version. I love it because its so much lighter than the equivalent stainless steel model, and it will never rust, which even stainless steel will at some point.
Its got its share of scratches, but doesn't bother me that much - I like the lived-in look.

Although, stainless steel would be cool too. Either way I'd be in for one.. (especially if I don't manage to get one of these brass ones..)

Graham

The guys that are spending big bucks for the brass AAA ARCS deserve to have what is a completely limited edition since that is kind of what they thought they are buying.

No reason to limit making a bunch of brass LSs though.

Titanium is quite a bit harder to polish than silver, gold, brass, aluminum etc., but I never really had any problem polishing it myself. Just use a Sisal or tightly sewn hard yellow muslin buff and a tripoli made for platinum for a pre-polish (leather buffs are faster, but trickier to keep from becoming a really smelly charcoal like substance ), then use another hard yellow muslin buff with "Wonder-Bar" for a high polish.

The main trick when pre-polishing titanium is to not keep the item in one place too long: Titanium doesn't conduct heat worth a darn, and you can actually singe your buff and discolor the metal. Better to go over the same place several times rather than keeping the buff in one place untill all the scratches are out. A different technique than for "normal" metals.

The neat thing about titanium is that it is easy to anodize into almost any color you want without dyes. (You can do even rainbow colors on a single item easily).

If you can get them machined, I can finish them for you (Or I can give you the name of a guy up in Jerome who is like the top expert in decorative titanium finishing

I think my affinity for brass has been misunderstood. I would never take brass backpacking with me. Too heavy, around town its not too heavy. I also think that brass is heavily misunderstood.

Why I like brass,
Most finished items that I own have a habit of having the finish wear off.
For example, I have three Arc-LE's, the one I carry daily has lost a large amount of its finish. Painted objects around my home need repainting every once it awhile. I have things finished in HardChrome, Titanium nitride, teflon, hard anodize, enamel, hot bluing, cold bluing etc. All have suffered over time and I have had many items refinished. The premium for solid brass cost much less that having an object refinished. The hard anodize wears through, what do you do??? With brass, no problem.

Next I respect brass for functionality.

Brass musical intruments. drop it down a flight of stairs, repair is not problem.

Brass firearms casings, take 40,000 and more CUP's of pressure, expand and form a gas tight seal. These can then be resized and the operation done again. Few other materials can do this as well and none as cheaply.

Brass fittings. If brass was not practical for forming gas and liquid pressure seals, industry would not be using it.

I have grown to like the appearance of brass but the ease of restoring it sells me on it. It's much easier to polish than paint, and cheaper than having something recoated.

If I win a brass Arc, it will be for daily carry, not for display. If I get two, I might keep one in new condition but the other would be used.

When the finish is long gone on hard coated lights, the brass can be brought back to new in a few minutes.

OK, JonSidneyB...you like BRASS!

just had to say that...

Well, I agree with those of you who say the Brass edition should be limited. This is what the current buyers are paying for (partly). In addition, I just don't think a production of 100 more Brass ARC's would sell for $100 each either....(but boy are they pretty!)

Peter, titanium, etc....sounds cool. I really like my Ti bike. Scratches? Just take a brillo pad and they're gone....
ti is a very worry free metal....and very strong. I play with my ti keychain ring all the time. The metal is so resilient!

As for conducting...I'm not sure if it's that great (especially compared to aluminum, etc.)

How about making an extra special edition where you have a thin titanium covering "sleeve" that fits over a regular ARC LE??? It could screw in...that would be the ultimate keychain holder!

Of course, working with ti is a pain, as it is such a hard metal....

I'm sure you could make some $$ on a couple of limited runs of other materials...like copper, etc.

Ti might just be too expensive. I don't see myself bidding $200 for a ti ARC AAA....

I like brass; I play several instruments made out of brass (two antique saxes and a trumpet), but I believe the main reason for the use of brass is because it is a relatively inexpensive material and it is easy to work with. Durability varies, because different makers use different brasses, some of which are stronger than others.

As for HA-aluminum, once you wear off the anodized coating, don't you still have the bare aluminum (coated with aluminum oxide) on the outside? Won't that last ~forever as well?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew:
I like brass; I play several instruments made out of brass (two antique saxes and a trumpet), but I believe the main reason for the use of brass is because it is a relatively inexpensive material and it is easy to work with. Durability varies, because different makers use different brasses, some of which are stronger than others.

As for HA-aluminum, once you wear off the anodized coating, don't you still have the bare aluminum (coated with aluminum oxide) on the outside? Won't that last ~forever as well?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe bare aluminum is naturally shiney. But once exposed to air, it will oxidize and a very very thin layer of aluminum oxide which is either trasparent or translucent will form on its surface. And that is why if you scratch something that is made of AL, you can see the shiney metal. But after a while, it will become tarnished.

Hello, gents. First post here on CPF. Hopefully I won't tick anyone off too bad.

I am not sure how much people would be willing to spend on a Ti flashlight, but they sure don't balk at paying a premium for Titanium products such as knives, watches and other gear. For evidence of that, check out Blade Forums at http://www.bladeforums.com/. A quick peek in their "Gadgets & Gear" (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=731) or "Practical Tactical" (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=680) forums will show you that anything Ti will sell at exhorbitant prices, many times just because the item in question is Ti. Usefulness or practicality doesn't always enter into the equation. Have a piece of Titanium stock the size of a pencil and wondering what to do with it? Post on PracTac that you have just invented the "Ultimate High-Speed Tactical Mall Ninja Warrior Titanium Self-Defense Device®" and you'll make a mint.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you make it, they wil come. No reason why Mr. Gransee shouldn't cash in on the Ti feeding frenzy, is there?

As far as finishing Ti, anodizing is supposed to be very easy. A battery, some wire and a bottle of Coke and you're ready to anodize. Someone else already mentioned that you can make a raindow of colors on the same piece if that floats your boat. This site shows how easy anodizing is: http://the-asylum.co.uk/jay/anodize.html.

Sorry for the long-windedness.

P.S.
Mr. Gransee said something about jewelers and a certain Titanium project. I'm assuming he means a ring. IMHO, Titanium rings are A Bad Thing®. Why? Because when something mashes your ring and your finger is swelling up, who's gonna cut the ring off for you to save your finger? A gold ring can be cut off with a pair of wire cutters. Most hospitals don't have the tools required to cut Ti. Bye-bye finger.

Thanks for the welcome, kogatana. Yes I am a shooter, but no I haven't heard anything new about Ti 1911s. The more closely I pay attention to stuff like that the more I want what I can't afford. Therefore, I've made a concerted effort to keep guns out of my thoughts lately.

I'm glad your friend's ring was removed and ultimately repaired. He's lucky the doc was thinking and had the bolt cutters at his disposal. I worry about what can happen if something more substantial that a pair of side cutters is not available.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hawkins1965:
I And that is why if you scratch something that is made of AL, you can see the shiney metal. But after a while, it will become tarnished.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What does tarnished aluminum look like? I've never seen such a thing. I've had aluminum bike parts get horribly scratched up, but i never see any tarnish. Aluminum rims get the worst abuse (from rocks getting stuck in brake pad and scratching under high pressure), but i've never seen any tarnish there.