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Thread: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

  1. #91
    Flashaholic* LLCoolBeans's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by NA8 View Post
    LOL. They had a funny thing called a typewriter back before Microsoft WORD.

    Guess where the Caps Lock key was ?
    Sun had the [Ctrl] in it's proper place before IBM swooped in and messed everything up.

    Now that you mention it, the typewriter may have been IBM's motivation as they may have wanted consistency in layout between their typewriters and their PC keyboards.

  2. #92
    Flashaholic* NA8's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Actually, now that I think about it, the original IBM PC keyboard had the CTRL key where you like it and hid the CapsLock key over on the other side of the keyboard under the shift key. I recall they did that because they had a very profitable dedicated word processor business they wanted to protect. Later on, the industry seemed to standardize on the typewriter friendly layout.
    Last edited by NA8; 03-15-2009 at 09:50 PM.

  3. #93

    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by LLCoolBeans View Post
    Now that you mention it, the typewriter may have been IBM's motivation as they may have wanted consistency in layout between their typewriters and their PC keyboards.
    You do know that the Model M was intentionally designed to mimic the feel of the Selectric keyboard, right? The Selectric III with correction had a really nice keyboard.

  4. #94
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by ckthorp View Post
    You do know that the Model M was intentionally designed to mimic the feel of the Selectric keyboard, right? The Selectric III with correction had a really nice keyboard.
    And now all of humanity has to suffer with inferior keyboard layouts.

    Who even uses a typewriter anymore?

  5. #95

    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by LLCoolBeans View Post
    And now all of humanity has to suffer with inferior keyboard layouts.

    Who even uses a typewriter anymore?
    Up until last year or so, I did. I'm an engineer with really crummy handwriting. For those multi-part forms that Universities love to use (which aren't available in electronically fillable versions), the typewriter was great for getting things across legibly. There is also something extremely satisfying about banging out a form on a typewriter.

  6. #96
    Flashaholic* LLCoolBeans's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by ckthorp View Post
    Up until last year or so, I did. I'm an engineer with really crummy handwriting. For those multi-part forms that Universities love to use (which aren't available in electronically fillable versions), the typewriter was great for getting things across legibly. There is also something extremely satisfying about banging out a form on a typewriter.
    Sure, but is that justification for inconveniencing millions of people? Who cares if computer keyboards are a little different from typewriters? My point is that there is no longer any justification for that lousy layout.

  7. #97

    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by LLCoolBeans View Post
    Sure, but is that justification for inconveniencing millions of people? Who cares if computer keyboards are a little different from typewriters? My point is that there is no longer any justification for that lousy layout.
    What are you saying is wrong with my Dvorak keyboard? I've been full-time on Dvorak for almost a decade now. Even my laptops, which, if you're careful, you can rearrange. Anyway, IBM wasn't the first person to mimic a typewriter on an electronic keyboard entry device, they just made one of the really popular ones.

  8. #98
    Flashaholic* LLCoolBeans's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by ckthorp View Post
    What are you saying is wrong with my Dvorak keyboard? I've been full-time on Dvorak for almost a decade now. Even my laptops, which, if you're careful, you can rearrange.
    Nothing. I have no issue with Dvorak, never used one, but I'm sure it's a good layout. I just don't like caps lock in the offensive left of the pinky position.


    Quote Originally Posted by ckthorp View Post
    Anyway, IBM wasn't the first person to mimic a typewriter on an electronic keyboard entry device, they just made one of the really popular ones.
    No, they were not the first, but I think they were the cause of the industry standard.

  9. #99
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    LLCoolBeans,

    This is the first time I've ever heard anyone make such a fuss about the position of the control key! Is it really so bad as all of that? I mean, if it comes to that, then the entire world should adopt the DVORAK keyboard, right, as it is more efficiently laid out.

    Like it or not, tradition, once established, must be considered. I would be unhappy if I had to relearn the position of the control / caps lock keys, just as I would be really unhappy to have to learn dvorak layout.

    For those who type for a living, it would be worth it to do something like that and it would be significant where the control key is. But for most people? Not an issue. Not an inconvenience. Not hardly. Most people don't even use keyboard shortcuts, they use a mouse.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, only that you're being a drama queen!

    Just buy an HHK keyboard. Someone who goes by the name "LLCoolBeans" recommended it 'cause it has the control key in the right place. No inconvenience for you, and the rest of us are just fine with it where it is.
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  10. #100
    Flashaholic* LLCoolBeans's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    I'm not saying you're wrong, only that you're being a drama queen!
    Yes, yes I am.


    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    This is the first time I've ever heard anyone make such a fuss about the position of the control key! Is it really so bad as all of that?
    Yes.

    First let me state that my statements are somewhat exaggerated for comic effect. My humor comes through much better in person.

    I too was once like you, until I tried a keyboard with the control key in it's rightful place. It was awkward for about 5 minutes and then I it clicked. The only reason I feel so strongly, is that I found it made a huge difference in my ability to use the keyboard efficiently. I've never gone back. I feel that others should give it a try, so they can benefit too.


    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    I mean, if it comes to that, then the entire world should adopt the DVORAK keyboard, right, as it is more efficiently laid out.
    Maybe they should. I've always wanted to try it, just never went so far as to actually do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    Just buy an HHK keyboard. Someone who goes by the name "LLCoolBeans" recommended it 'cause it has the control key in the right place.
    Well, don't buy it because I said anything. Buy it because it's a great board.

    Don't let the Ctrl key thing stop you, if you are married to your Ctrl/Caps arrangement, no problem. You can swap the position of Ctrl and Caps via dip switches on the back of the board.

    Also, the HKK can look like one of those travel keyboards in the photos. I assure you it is not. The board is weighted so that it stays put on your desktop or keyboard tray. It is only small in stature because the human hand is only so big. Why not use an input device where all functions are right at your fingertips, rather than having to move your arms about or look down at the keybord?

    They used to have a DVORAK model, that is one of the ones that has gone the way of the dodo. They also used to have a model with no labeling on the keys at all.

    There are a couple of other great products that complement the HHK very well.

    The Rollermouse
    http://www.contourdesign.com/rollermouse/

    And the Genovation programmable keypad
    http://www.genovation.com/progkeypads.htm

    Oh, and the HHK Lite 2 page
    http://www.pfusystems.com/hhkeyboard/hhkeyboard.html

  11. #101
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    LLCoolBeans,

    Great response! I believe you that it just might "click" for me, but since I like to YELL at people a lot in my posts and emails, THE CAPS LOCK KEY IS A GODSEND! I use it way more than the STUPID control key. *grin* For instance I just used it like three freaking times in this one post! How cool is that?

    But seriously, like I said, I think you're probably right about this issue. Although, when I worked for the military, there was a crazy amount of ALL CAPS acronyms and just general style/preference, so I probably used it almost as much as the control key back then.

    Anyway, thanks for the posts and the HHK recommendation.
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  12. #102
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    LLCoolBeans,

    Great response! I believe you that it just might "click" for me, but since I like to YELL at people a lot in my posts and emails, THE CAPS LOCK KEY IS A GODSEND! I use it way more than the STUPID control key. *grin* For instance I just used it like three freaking times in this one post! How cool is that?

    But seriously, like I said, I think you're probably right about this issue. Although, when I worked for the military, there was a crazy amount of ALL CAPS acronyms and just general style/preference, so I probably used it almost as much as the control key back then.
    Well, if you actually use it more than you use [Ctrl], then I can understand why you like it where it is. If you think you might use [Ctrl] more often, I would seriously recommend you try switching the position of [L Ctrl] with [Caps]. You don't need to buy a keyboard to try it out either. If you use Windows, there is a program called TradeKeys that will allow you to modify your key mappings. If you use Linux, there is a similar thing, but I don't remember the name. If you use Mac, I hope it would be possible, but I have no idea, I don't even know if Mac has a [Ctrl] key.

    You might also try swapping with [R Ctrl] instead, this would allow [Ctrl] to be in the new place and in the place you are used to it being.


    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    Anyway, thanks for the posts and the HHK recommendation.
    If you decide to give it a try, let me know and I'll help you to realize the power.

    I did some looking on eBay and as it turns out, the real HHKs are still availible, however they are only availible on the Japanese market. They used to retail for $150 or something from PFU. Now if you want one you have to get one from ebay and pay $200 to $300+. Ouch.

    That is the "Professional 2" model. The "Lite2" model is still imported into the US and can be had from PFU, the above link should take you to the online ordering page.

    The Lite2, is probably the better board to try out the concept, as it will only set you back $70 or so.

    They also used to make/import the Lite2s with a PS/2 interface, now only USB is availible.

    Also, looking on eBay, I noticed what Nortgate keyboards are selling for. Egads! Do an ebay search for Northgate keyboard. This may give you an approximation of the quality of these boards. If people are stepping over each other to purchase a 20+ year old keyboard for upwards of $300, what does that say about the quality of the keyboard?

    I was lucky, I found mine some years ago under a stack of old keyboards at the local thrift shop. I think I paid $2-$5 for mine.

  13. #103
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    LLCoolBeans,

    I was kidding about using the caps lock key more. I, like most serious computer users, use the CTRL key way more--the keyboard is always faster than the mouse. And at home I use a Mac, and OS X, in system preferences, makes it very easy to redefine keyboard keys. As for the windows and Linux stuff, here at work I barely have the authority to change the effing time on my computer, let alone install applications and make system changes. The computer group locks those things down tight. Never mind that I am trusted with operating a $125,000 API laser tracker, and am entrusted with operating and being responsible for the entire accelerator. That, apparently, must pale in comparison to being given administrator priviledges on my own damn machine. It annoys me so much that I bought a Macbook Pro on my own dime so I could have an unhampered computer experience here at work when I want. So, the point is that I would almost certainly not be able to get software like you are talking about installed on my machine. I couldn't even get a different web browser installed unless I could "justify" it. Just because I like a different one doesn't cut it.

    That's OK, though, when I'm on the control system cluster, I have God-like power! *muh hah ha ha* (evil laugh).

    Anyway, while I appreciate the offer(s) and the recommendation on the HHK and Northgate, I almost certainly will just "settle" for my IBM Model M here at work. I like it, and while I can usually spend money to get what I want, my wife looks very askance at multiples. i.e. I can buy a knife--a very expensive knife even (I bought a Sebenza, years ago)--but if I wanted to buy another one, well, that would be harder to get past her. LOL! And, personally, I too would be hard pressed to justify spending another $100 or more on a keyboard, since I just spent $70 on my Model M. I decided on the Model M because it's a classic and I wanted to experience it, and also because I got a "new" (i.e. newer) computer here at work when my old one died, and it's an IBM ThinkCentre. And my monitor is an IBM ThinkVision. And so, when I got my keyboard, it formed a nice matched set of IBM components! Well, the mouse is a Logitech, but that's OK.

    Still, good to know about the Northgate. I picked up my two Apple Extended Keyboard II's at a Church rummage sale and a Salvation Army Thrift store for $4 ea, so who knows? It's not impossible to believe that I might run across a Northgate. I can dream, anyway!
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  14. #104
    Flashaholic* LLCoolBeans's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    I was kidding about using the caps lock key more. I, like most serious computer users, use the CTRL key way more--the keyboard is always faster than the mouse. And at home I use a Mac, and OS X, in system preferences, makes it very easy to redefine keyboard keys. As for the windows and Linux stuff, here at work I barely have the authority to change the effing time on my computer, let alone install applications and make system changes. The computer group locks those things down tight. Never mind that I am trusted with operating a $125,000 API laser tracker, and am entrusted with operating and being responsible for the entire accelerator. That, apparently, must pale in comparison to being given administrator priviledges on my own damn machine. It annoys me so much that I bought a Macbook Pro on my own dime so I could have an unhampered computer experience here at work when I want. So, the point is that I would almost certainly not be able to get software like you are talking about installed on my machine. I couldn't even get a different web browser installed unless I could "justify" it. Just because I like a different one doesn't cut it.
    Well, that's frustrating. Yea, I guess in that case you'd actually need a board, but it sounds like there's no reason you can't try it on your personal machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    Anyway, while I appreciate the offer(s) and the recommendation on the HHK and Northgate, I almost certainly will just "settle" for my IBM Model M here at work. I like it, and while I can usually spend money to get what I want, my wife looks very askance at multiples. i.e. I can buy a knife--a very expensive knife even (I bought a Sebenza, years ago)--but if I wanted to buy another one, well, that would be harder to get past her. LOL! And, personally, I too would be hard pressed to justify spending another $100 or more on a keyboard, since I just spent $70 on my Model M. I decided on the Model M because it's a classic and I wanted to experience it, and also because I got a "new" (i.e. newer) computer here at work when my old one died, and it's an IBM ThinkCentre. And my monitor is an IBM ThinkVision. And so, when I got my keyboard, it formed a nice matched set of IBM components! Well, the mouse is a Logitech, but that's OK.

    Still, good to know about the Northgate. I picked up my two Apple Extended Keyboard II's at a Church rummage sale and a Salvation Army Thrift store for $4 ea, so who knows? It's not impossible to believe that I might run across a Northgate. I can dream, anyway!
    Wow, $70 is that what those are going for now? I have about two large rubbermade bins full of those old IBM boards out in my garage. Maybe I should start selling them on eBay?

    Don't get me wrong, I like the old IBM battleship boards, except for the [Caps] issue, that is. That is definitely a quality board.

  15. #105

    Buttrock Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    I'm using a 1993 M here at work ( it is my personal kb )

  16. #106
    Moderator js's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    LLCoolBeans,

    A very good condition, cleaned, tested white label IBM Model M 1391401 keyboard goes for about that, yes. I'm sure I paid a bit of a premium ordering from www.clickykeyboards.com, but for me it was worth it. It came with a guarantee / return policy, and was fully tested and cleaned and all that. Plus, I like that company and was happy to support it. I tend to avoid ebay unless I have no other choice, or know the seller well.

    As for my personal machine, I'm quite happy with the Apple Extended Keyboard II or the new Apple Keyboard kit which I mentioned (and linked to), and my wife would not go for yet another keyboard. Plus, we're about to upgrade our desktop machine.

    fluorescent,

    It's a neat keyboard, isn't it?
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  17. #107
    Flashaholic* LLCoolBeans's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Just in case you are interested, here are some links to videos showing the HHK Professional 2 in action.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5CeNunbHto
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIfnRy0y50o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1XBmmsP2gI

    This one shows the Lite 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZXerMPJoW0

  18. #108
    Flashaholic* LLCoolBeans's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Started learning DVORAK last night. So, I've gone from about 80 WPM to about 12, but I can already tell that I will soon be blowing 80 WPM away.

    It's not just a little more efficient, it's WAY more efficient!

    Querty = 30% of keystrokes on the home row.
    DVORAK = 70% of keystrokes on the home row.

    You absolutely must try it!

  19. #109
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Cool . . .

    I'm impressed, LLCoolBeans! You talk the talk and walk the walk.
    -Jim Sexton, creator of the M6-R, the TigerLight Upgrades, Fixture-ring lamp potting, the SL60, co-designer of the B90 Upgrade, and proponent of the SF A2, the SF M6 X-LOLA, Titanium, the Haiku, and the LunaSol 20

  20. #110

    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by LLCoolBeans View Post
    Started learning DVORAK last night. So, I've gone from about 80 WPM to about 12, but I can already tell that I will soon be blowing 80 WPM away.

    It's not just a little more efficient, it's WAY more efficient!

    Querty = 30% of keystrokes on the home row.
    DVORAK = 70% of keystrokes on the home row.

    You absolutely must try it!
    Fantastic! The only warning I have is to keep an eye on your typing output. It is very easy to interchange vowels by mistake.

  21. #111

    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    I've got 3 Model Ms and 1 Northgate.

    The Model Ms have been flawless for years, and the switchable caps are great for cleaning. The Northgate suffers from the occasional (slightly) sticky key.

    Given that the Northgate cost about 5 times more than each of the Model Ms, the IBM keyboards are far better value for money. The only reason not to use a Model M is if you don't want to deafen people around you

  22. #112

    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by js View Post
    As for my personal machine, I'm quite happy with the Apple Extended Keyboard II
    The Matias Tactile Pro is said to mimic the AEKI. Version 1 was quite serious. Version 2 is here:

    http://matias.ca/tactilepro2/

    Version 3 is due next spring. All three come with USB and Mac ready keys.

  23. #113
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Sorry, but you can't beat the Optimus Maximus imo.

    The price tag sucks but it doesn't get better than it.

  24. #114
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    I am a pretty big dvorak fan. i can type a good bit faster on one than a qwerty keyboard. about 15-20 wpm faster. not to mention that i can type longer without starting to feel like cutting off my hands. i have had a big delema the past few months with keyboards, i could not find one suitable for gaming and for typing. i have had a logitech g15 scince they first came out. however i traded it for something else. (not keyboard wise, but something else) so now i am on the hunt for a keyboard and will probably go with the das keyboard. but i worry about every keyboard i get with the letter printed on the keys, because those long nights of gaming wear the lettering down to noithing. like the keyboard i am typing on now has WASD, alt, and R already worn down to nothing. several others on their way. the bad thing is, i have not learned to touch type on a qwerty keyboard. so i will soon have to learn! i can only touch type on a dvorak. if only DAS made a dvorak keyboard.

  25. #115

    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentK View Post
    i can only touch type on a dvorak.
    If you can touch type, then it doesn't matter what's printed on the keys... Just switch your OS to Dvorak and rock&roll.

  26. #116
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by ckthorp View Post
    If you can touch type, then it doesn't matter what's printed on the keys... Just switch your OS to Dvorak and rock&roll.
    How can i go upon doing this? sounds great!

    Edit: Figured it out! YES!
    Last edited by SilentK; 06-17-2009 at 12:20 PM.

  27. #117
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Too hard to get used to Dvarok for me, but I can already get 100+ WPM if I want.

  28. #118
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumenshroom View Post
    Too hard to get used to Dvarok for me, but I can already get 100+ WPM if I want.
    Wow. i can only do around 60-70 on a qwerty. around 90 on dvorak. i am now making my on dvorak keyboard. i found an old gateway keyboard with identical keys. so now i am sitting here with a knife popping out all the keys and puting them back in. its been a while scince i use a dvorak, first few days might be a bit tough, but hey, im typing with a qwerty keyboard with dvorak now, so im not to bad.

  29. #119
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Quote Originally Posted by SilentK View Post
    Wow. i can only do around 60-70 on a qwerty. around 90 on dvorak. i am now making my on dvorak keyboard. i found an old gateway keyboard with identical keys. so now i am sitting here with a knife popping out all the keys and puting them back in. its been a while scince i use a dvorak, first few days might be a bit tough, but hey, im typing with a qwerty keyboard with dvorak now, so im not to bad.
    Speed will come with time- I've been typing for about ten years.

  30. #120
    Flashaholic* Mjolnir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The best computer keyboards ever made - still

    Well I have a G15 (version 1), and I am very satisfied with it for the most part. The backlit keys are very useful for low light, and the built in LCD is VERY useful. I can display basically every bit of info I need about my computer on it (Temperatures, fan speeds, CPU usage, RAM usage, internet usage, and a lot more).
    Eagletac T10L, 3D maglite with Malkoff 3-6D XP-G Dropin, Stanley 35 watt HID, Gerber LX 3.0, L-mini II Q3-5C, 2D ROP w/ LiMnNi 26650, Eagletac P100A2, Quark Mini AA XP-G S2

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