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Thread: MDs Lithium-Ion > Incandescent guide + compatability/comparison chart

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    Post MDs Lithium-Ion > Incandescent guide + compatability/comparison chart

    INTRODUCTION

    This guide, represents everything I wish I could respond with, whenever a question about lithium-ion tactical flashlights is asked. Obviously, there is a lot to say on the subject. I think I have pretty much said it all here. Guide Revised 1/1/08 to reduce redundancy, and improve quality of information based on what I have learned since originally writing.

    New members to the forum are often intrigued by the lure of having a very powerful, compact flashlight, but are faced with the daunting task of scrounging through endless threads that cover only a fraction of the information needed to really get started using li-ion in a safe rewarding manner. This guide is LONG, sit back, grab a soda or a coffee, soak it up!


    Many CPF members have had great questions about using li-ion cells over the years, much of this guide was originally copy/pasted from my responses to those questions. The thread that originally inspired me to build this guide was started by CPF member MacSwift. Occasionally I come back and update or revise or improve the guide to include better wording or more complete information. So the original responses have been modified since.

    The most common and simple li-ion conversions will take place in standard tactical lithium powered lights. G&P, Wolf Eyes, Lumens Factory, Pila, (and others), manufacture tactical lamps that are of the same basic design as a Surefire P series(like the P60, P90, etc). This is the basic starting point for most Lithium-Ion conversions. You pick out a host that supports one of the common lamp types, like the "P" series which are often called D26 or 26mm lamp assemblies, then mate it with an appropriate configuration of Lithium-Ion cells to power the lamp. There are more complicated setups available through the use of extenders, turbo heads, larger lamps, etc etc, Since this thread was originally made many things have changed, the availability of after-market lamps for the M series Surefire lights is now a reality (through LumensFactory) and more configurations are available now than ever.

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    Understanding The Basics

    In the world of lithium and lithium ion batteries... it is important to understand that lithium primary cells (also called photo lithium, or CR123A, or surefire cells) are about 16mm diameter by about 34mm long. They are sometimes referred to as 16340 sized cells. You probably already know that they deliver about 3 Volts, and have a capacity of about 1200-1600mAh depending on brand and how they are used. So a pair of these cells in a light like the C2(G2, 6P, etc) powers the "6V" rated lamp nicely... Other designations for common CR123A cells are: CR 123 3V, CR123, CR17345, K123A, VL123A, DL123A, DL123ABK, 5018LC, EL123AP, SF123, EL123APBP2, EL123APBP and SF123A 3V, etc etc. The important thing is that these are all Lithium Manganese Dioxide Cells intended for one-time use. They tend to be expensive to run if you use a light frequently, and therefor, switching to a rechargable chemistry cell is often desired.

    For this guide, I will pretty much be discussing one type of lithium-ion cell, a Lithium Cobalt Oxide cell. This is the "mainstream" chemistry found in most consumer devices from cell phones to laptops and MP3 players. From here forth, when I refer to a Li-Ion cells, I am talking about this type of cell unless I state otherwise. With different chemistry, usually comes different cell specifications and behaviors.

    [edited in 11/11/08] {I am going to be updating the compatibility chart to include a semi-recent advancement in li-ion tech, and that is LiMn, or Lithium Manganese Oxide rechargeable cells. While suffering from ~30% lower energy density as compared with the LiCo (lithium cobalt) chemistry cells that this guide covers, they can deliver higher drain rates safely, which allows for more compact configurations to be very bright but with short runtimes... I will include tidbits about these cells in the guide where information is critical, and try to include all possible combinations of LiMn powered configurations in the chart below.}

    The Li-Ion cells discussed in this guide operate at ~3.7V typical output, so a pair of 16340 sized lithium-ion rechargeable cells would blow a 6V lamp, but a single cell would under-power it, producing a brownish-yellow lousy output. Under-driven bulbs are also very inefficient(poor watt to lumen conversion). So, generally speaking, when we want to use rechargable lithium-ion cells in a light, we use one of the following 4 configurations.

    1. a 3.7V bulb powered by 1 Lithium-Ion Cell.
    2. a "9V" bulb powered by 2 Lithium-Ion Cells.
    3. a "13V" bulb powered by 3 Lithium-Ion Cells.
    4. a carefully selected bi-pin bulb in a proper adapter, powered by an appropriate number of properly sized cells.... (these are more advanced options, I may mention a few in the charts in time)
    There are many options in each range... For lights like the C2 that have room for 2 CR123 (16340) sized cells, you have 2 configurations available. "1" and "2" above.


    As it is now, Surefire is not really in the business of making lamps with Lithium-Ion cells in mind. So when dealing with Li-Ion, the only lamps that we can use from Surefire, are the 9V options. However, some people have experimented with their 12V lamps from the M series (turbo head configurations) and found they will often work in 3 Li-Ion cell configurations. SF does not intend for the lamps to be used this way, but many of us do. When we desire more configuration options, we turn to the other manufactures mentioned previously, who ARE in the business of making lamps with Li-Ion cells in mind.

    Now it is also important to understand, that there are many different Sizes of Lithium-Ion cell available, and many different brands. There are also Protected Cells, and Bare Unprotected Cells.
    There are 3 brands of cell you will find in a flashlight at CPF more than any other cells out there...
    1. AWs Protected Li-Ions, available in many sizes... they are available at Lighthound and through his sales thread in the dealer section of this forum.
    2. Wolf-Eyes Protected Li-Ions, available from Pacific Tactical Solutions
    3. Pila Protected Li-Ions, available from Jsburlys

    Links added to sellers of bulbs/batteries later in guide

    [edit in 11/11/08]{In recent times, a "#4" above would read "LiMn chemistry cells in 16340 and 18650 sizes"}

    These are the most commonly used because they are the best quality cells available, and they have protection circuits that make them safer than ordinary "bare" lithium-Ion cells. These 3 brands of protected cells are the only protected cells on the market with high current thresholds set on those protection circuits, this is done specifically with the intention of being able to light up powerful incandescent bulbs. I do not recommend unprotected cells, or any cells that claim to be protected from other sources.. Going on ebay and picking up some really cheap cells is asking for trouble. Do so at your own risk, and understand that they may not work in your configuration. There has been a flood of "off-brand" Li-Ion cells becoming available to consumers in recent times, often sold at a fraction of the price of the cells listed above. Remember, when selecting your Li-Ion cells, that these cells can be potentially dangerous, buying quality cells from a reputable dealer is important to your safety. The best VALUE is not always the lowest price.

    [edit in 11/11/08]{LiMn chemistry cells are not protected, and do not really need to be as they are inherently safe.}

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    Converting a Common 2 cell Tactical

    A C2[G2, 6P, M2, or comparable generic alternative] will have room for 2 16340 sized cells, but if you wanted to use a 3.7V lamp, it would be rather wasteful to use a cell that only fills half the tube... The good news is, there are longer cells available.. specifically, for this application We're talking about a 17670 sized cell. AW calls it a 17670 sized cell. Pila calls it a 600S size cell, and Wolf Eyes calls it a 168B sized cell... But they are all approximately 17mm diameter (which fits snug in most lights designed for 16340s, like the C2 [and other Surefire Lights]) by 67mm long. This single cell, fits in the place that 2 CR123s (16340s) would ordinarily fit. Provides a 3.7V output with a rated capacity of 1500-1600mah depending on the cell. There are many other common cell sizes available for Li-Ion rechargable cells. 10440, 14500, 14670, 16340, 17500, 18500, 18650. Various arrangements of cell configurations are being used by many CPFers to power bulbs and LEDs...

    Now.... lets say you go with the 17670 cell, and a 3.7V lamp. You can expect the light to be brighter than the stock P60, but dimmer than the optional P61. The 3.7V lamps draw more current that a P60, so what they lack in voltage, they makeup for in current to be reasonably bright. Runtime on a 17670 cell driving a 3.7V lamp is 35-50 minutes depending on what lamp you choose.

    Now.. lets say you wanted a configuration that is closer in output to the P61 that is also rechargable.
    You would want to step up to a 9V lamp, and run a PAIR of rechargeable RCR123 (16340) sized cells.

    These RCR123 cells are generally rated about 750mAh capacity. The only RCR123 cells available WITH protection that will light up 9V tactical lamp assemblies reliably are the AW protected R123s and I believe the BatteryStation brand RCR123s. There are probably others available but I don't think it's worth the trial and error to experiment with off-brands, these AWs are good cells and backed up by great customer relations. Keep in mind, that most of these Li-Ion cells are designed to be used up to a 2C current draw, no more... Which means that the cell should not be discharged in less than 30 minutes. I should point out that most capacity ratings on RCR123 size cells (from all manufactures) are pretty ambitious. In reality RCR123s tend to be ~550mAH true capacity. However, if the discharge is broken up into short bursts (as most flashlight use is) one can get by with discharge rates that are slightly higher than the cells are rated for without much problem. The trick is to pull out a different longer running light when you need to keep it on for a long time. For high output conversions with a pair of RCR123s, a lamp like the SureFire P90, Wolf-Eyes 9V D26, or LumensFactory SR-9 are often used. If you really respect your usage you can even get by with a HO-9 from LumensFactory to really match the output of a P61 with a similar 20 minute total runtime. This is just touching on some of the safety issues with Li-Ion cells.... Lets move on and learn more about that....

    [edit in 11/11/08]{With AW IMR16340 LiMn cells, high current lamps like the HO-9, EO-9, and P91, can be used in 2 cell host flashlights with no danger. They can handle discharge rates up to ~4 amps safely.}


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    Use/safety of Lithium-Ion and charging guidelines


    Lithium-Cobalt chemistry must be respected.... There are particular rules that must be followed in order to keep the cell in safe working condition: for most cells this means the following things:
    do not charge above 4.200V
    do not discharge below ~3.5V rested open-circuit (3.5V is basically dead on a li-ion cell)
    do not discharge faster than 2C (some cells as low as 1C), which means in less than 30 minutes. Some cells out there are rated for no faster than a 1 hour discharge rate.
    do not charge faster than 1C
    (in 1 hour).

    [edit in 11/11/08] {LiMn chemistry cells should be kept in that same ~3.5-4.20V operating range, they can tolerate slightly deeper discharges without much trouble, like down to around 3.0V open circuit. The 1C charge and 2C discharge rules do not apply to LiMn cells, most are rated for ~5-15C maximum discharge rates, and maximum charge rates of 1-2C or greater, consult the manufactures specifications for further detail as there is a wide variety of possibilities.}

    Keep in mind that fully charging a Li-Ion cell correctly will always actually take longer than an hour, because charging a Li-Ion cell requires the charger to use 2 modes. First, a constant current mode (CC), will hit the cell with the voltage necessary to hold the current going into the cell steady, UNTILL the cell voltage rises to 4.20V, at which point it will HOLD 4.20V output until the output current drops substantially (ideally ~50-300mA depending on the cell size). That second phase (called constant voltage (CV)) portion of the charge will always cause the total charge time to go well over an hour. So if the maximum charge rate of the cell is listed as 1C, and the cell has a capacity of 2200mAH, you can hit it with 2.2amps for the Constant Current (first phase) of the charge, in the second phase it will ramp down as the cell absorbs more energy. Ideally speaking a 0.7C CC phase followed by CV at 4.2V is the recommended charge rate that is healthy for Li-Ion cells and results in reasonable charge times. Most chargers are set to a CC rate from the factory and are stuck using that rate (unless you have a fancy hobby-grade charger with adjustable output). So you will often be stuck with a slower than ideal charge rate for larger format cells, which is fine *for the most part*, just takes longer to charge.

    Now... Good and Bad news time: Bad News First! Allowing a Li-Ion cell to operate out of the bounds listed above, will decrease it's cycle life and increase the risk of a catastrophic failure (vent-with-flame) This is why you want to buy cells with built in protection when using Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells. The GOOD NEWS: It will leave SOME of the guesswork out of using Li-Ion cells. The protection on cells is actually set a little ways beyond these bounds I listed, Often the high and low volt cut-off are set too extreme for normal use. Do NOT rely on the protection to terminate a charge (unless a charger and cell combination is designed to do this, like the Wolf-Eyes system) or to shut-off the flashlight when it is dead. try to charge before the cells go that dead. And try to remove cells from the charger before the protection stops the charge. If you are bumping up against the protection regularly, you are wearing our your cells quickly and should ease up your methods, but the protection will reduce the risk of major problems dramatically. think of it as a "backup" for when you accidentally leave a light on, or accidentally fall asleep with cells on a cheap charger. Just don't make those things part of your Li-Ion routine. Most chargers are pretty good about charging correctly, but it would be wise to invest in a multimeter and test the voltage of the cell before it goes on the charger, and after they come off. Doesn't need to be done EVERY time, but at least once and awhile to make sure everything looks right (this way you know if cells are staying matched well or not, also it tells you about how long you have to charge it). Testing after they come off the charger lets you know if the charger is doing it's job- if you see 4.3+ V then you should monitor charging closely and pull cells for testing frequently until you have a chance to try a different charger.. For the most part, I have had good luck with the popular budget DSD charger ($7-15). Leaving cells on the charger after the light goes "green" seems to trickle the cells up beyond a safe charge level in many budget chargers (older WF-139s are notorious for this), lithium-ion cells should not be trickle-charged, it will eventually damage the cell. [edit in 04/15/07 11:40PM]Silverfox, our battery expert here at CPF has suggested(in a PM to me regarding this subject, many thanks to him!) that 4.20V is considered ideal, with a tolerance of +/-0.05V, (termination should be between 4.15 and 4.25V, but anything over 4.20V really starts to kill cycle life of the cell) 4.4V is where serious danger begins (cells tend to explode around there). The emphasis of this tight tolerance is important, lithium-ion cells must be respected. A good quality DMM, or possibly owning 2, so you can check for accuracy would be ideal. Charging to a little less than 4.20V is perfectly fine and will more than likely keep cells healthier, longer. ANY TIME YOU CHARGE ABOVE 4.200V, YOU ARE REDUCING THE NUMBER OF HEALTHY CYCLES THE CELL WILL DELIVER. Charging to 4.10V would actually increase cycle life dramatically, at the cost of some capacity and initial brightness. Personally, I suggest using a charger that reliably terminates cells in the 4.10-4.20V range.

    [edit in: 11/29/08]A large number of cheaper chargers available do not follow the proper CC followed by CV charge method described above. Chargers like the WF-139, use a CC only charge method, that cycles on and off every few seconds to take a cell voltage reading. During charging, this charger ramps most cells up to ~4.25-4.30V during the final few minutes of charging. I'm not a big fan of this charging method, but it seems to work reasonable well (the cell usually settles to around 4.20V after the charge is terminated). I have seen this charger bring cell voltages high enough to trip the PCB on smaller cells (the protected cell actually terminates the charge, rather than the charger)... If you are using protected cells, then this is still considered OK (sortof)..., but I would not insert a low capacity (like RCR123 size) unprotected cell into one of these chargers, it would probably ramp the cell to ~4.4V or higher before terminating. Overall, chargers that use this style of charge termination (lack of CV stage) are marginal at best. The behavior of various cheap chargers on the market varies, so getting a good charger at a budget price isn't always easy to do. I generally just point straight to the Pila IBC for a quality charger recommendation.

    also how many cycles do you usually get on those AW cr123s before you want to chuck em ?
    Here are some safety issues that should be considered. (recently brought to my attention)
    CPF member Silverfox has really been enlightening us on these subjects big time, we have him to thank for doing all the grunt work learning more about batteries than most of us could possibly comprehend. He has probably forgotten more about batteries than most of us will ever learn, lol. I am really just regurgitation what he has taught me here.

    Lithium-Ion cells become more dangerous as they age. The potential for a rapid disassembly increases dramatically as the cell "breaks down" internally. Ideally speaking, when used correctly, a Li-Ion cell could deliver 300-1000 cycles before being considered "done." But the best way to determine when the cell should be discarded, is when the cell is only delivering 80% of it's "new" capacity. So, when you get your cells setup in a configuration, try to get a measurement of how much runtime you are getting "new" and how long they take on the charger to come back up to 4.200V. When the runtime has dropped to 80% of the original, it's time to replace cells.

    If any of the following conditions are noticed, the cells are probably coming up on the end of their useful life and should be considered unsafe. Please discard them. Ideally speaking, take them to a recycling collection for li-ion cells.

    1. if cells are heating up abnormally during discharge or charge. (slightly warm to the touch is normal, HOT to touch=bad)
    2. if cells are taking an abnormally long time to charge, especially in conjunction with heating up. (like 20-30% longer than when *new*)
    3. If cells are coming off charger, and loosing substantial voltage after resting for ~15-30 minutes. (like dropping from 4.19 to 3.99). If the cell holds above 4.000 after resting, then the cell is probably still above 80% of "new" capacity. This is probably the easiest way to test for cell health. Charge, test voltage, rest cell for 30 minutes, if it won't hold above 4.00V, it's done.

    At the time of writing this, None of the LiCo cells we use in these configurations are technically designed to be discharged continuously in a manner that would deplete them in less than 30 minutes. Any configuration that has an estimated runtime of LESS than 30 minutes will deplete cycle life of LiCo cells much more rapidly than ideal. The best way to overcome this seems to be to charge more frequently (shallow discharges rather than deep discharges, so as to keep the loaded voltage above 3.5V as often as possible), and to only use the light in short bursts. At the time of writing this, I'm going to interpret Silverfoxes recommendations as follows.
    When using a configuration that has less than 30 minutes of total estimated runtime, use in short bursts of (ideally) 1 minute or less. Try to only use about 50% or less of the available discharge before recharging. So think of it as a "10 minute" light rather than a 20 minute light. I think these rules can be extrapolated to longer running configurations to improve cycle life as well. For example, if you have a configuration that has an estimated runtime of 30 minutes, only using about 20 minutes or less whenever possible, followed by a recharge, would greatly increase cycle life. Protected cells, unfortunately, don't really have their low-V cutoff set as high as it aught to be to really extend cycle life. Even in configurations with very long runtimes, like say, 150 minutes, leaving the last 20-30% of runtime off would be best. Running it out to 100 minutes, rather than trying to get the full 150 minutes, would increase cycle life of the cells.

    [edit in 11/11/08]{Modern LiMn chemistry cells can handle discharge rates that take place in as little as 5-10 minutes depending on the particular cell in question. If you are looking at a configuration that is borderline on LiCo cells, consider a LiMn cell configuration.}

    If you took a configuration, like a pair of AW RCR123s driving an HO-9 lamp (20 minute runtime) and ran it a full 20+ minutes every run(till protection kicks in), and recharged it, cell capacity would be down to 80% in possibly as little as 10-50 cycles. If this is how you think you would use the light, it would be best to choose a lower power lamp, some larger cell configurations, or a LiMn cell configuration, to get cycle life back up in the hundreds.


    here are some links that everyone interested in using Lithium cells should read: Some are for Lithium, some Lithium-Ion, but I can't stress enough that these are all *potentially* dangerous cells. The more informed users are, the better. Keep in mind that a fresh CR123 primary, or fully charged 18650 cell, has an energy density bordering on TNT. This does not automatically mean that these cells are unsafe, but if used improperly they can be.
    Please watch this video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeWq6rWzChw

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...35#post1972035
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...ight=explosion
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...hlight=explode


    Ideally speaking, even though you are using protected cells, You should mentally keep track of how much runtime you have used on the light, and watch for dimming. When the light starts to seem noticeably dimmer and orange-er in color output, you should plan on recharging as soon as possible. The cells will protect themselves from being severely over-discharged, however, cycle life is much greater when you use shallower cycles on Li-Ion. So maybe use the light a few minutes a day for various tasks and charge it up every other day. The nice thing about Li-Ion is that it does not develop memory issues, you never really need to do "forming charges" and "full discharges" and stuff like that. Might be good to give them a full charge followed by long run followed by full charge when you get them to break them in, but after that just put em on the charger when ever you want to top them off. Daily would be fine even if you use the light a little bit during the day. Li-Ion cells also have little to no self-discharge. So you can charge it up and know you could come back to that light in a month and have full juice ready to go...

    Special Note for users of Wolf-Eyes M90 13V incan, M300 incan, Boxer HID and Storm Cree lights

    Again, special thanks to Silverfox here for bringing this important information to my attention to include in the guide:

    The chargers included and or available for "pack" charging these lights rely on a slightly less orthodox method of charge termination. The charge is basically a CC (constant current) charge that holds continuous until one of the cells trips the high voltage limit protection at about 4.3V. Since the charge over 4.200V is done at a semi-rapid rate, the cells are only in a state of overcharge temporarily, they settle to ~4.15~4.25V within a few minutes after the charge is terminated. The charging technique works reasonably well provided that the cells are DESIGNED with this in mind. Wolf-Eyes and AW protected cells are the ONLY cells available that should be used in these flashlights if you intend to use the included (or optional) pack/tailcap chargers. Wolf-Eyes PCB (protection) circuits are purposely overbuilt to reliably take on the role of charge termination when used with these chargers. AWs cells also have premium PCBs that can handle the high voltage repeatedly. Again, DO NOT use any other brands of Li-Ion cell on one of these chargers. Without a reliable termination from the cell these chargers can ramp cell voltage to over 4.5V, which is WAY BEYOND the safe zone. Li-Ion cells above 4.4V become VERY unstable. The risk of a very violent vent-with-flame would be very likely if these chargers were used with unprotected cells or poorly protected cells from other brands.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Storage and other worthwhile information about Li-Ion cells

    Leaving a Li-Ion cell sitting in a state of full charge or near-dead will cause more rapid internal breakdown (oxidation). If you intend to store a Li-Ion cell for a long period of inactivity you can minimize the effects of aging by charging (or discharging, depending on the starting state) the cell to about 3.9V. This is a nice comfortable zone that the cell can sit in and experience very little self discharge and very low internal oxidation for long periods of time. (In theory, most modern cells could probably be stored for a few years without much trouble). Coincidentally, when you buy new cells, it would be best to check their voltage out of the package before you start using them to insure that they were delivered to you within an acceptable voltage range for stored cells. (3.75-4.00V should be reasonable). If you take delivery on cells that are below 3.70V resting it probably means that they have been stored for a long period of time. If they seem to perform up to their expected capacity and hold full charges at 4.20V then there is probably not an issue to be concerned about, but many cheap cells are often cheap because they are over-aged. Be weary of cheap cells as they are often very worn out right out of the package. A $3 cell that is already "50% aged" is not a better value than a $6 cell that comes fresh and ready to go.

    If you want to store a Li-Ion cell on a more short-term basis, like, for example, as backup cells for a power outage, you will probably want to charge to a level that gives good runtime available when the cell is needed, but storing a cell at full charge 4.20V is not going to be ideal. My personal recommendation is a happy medium. I personally charge my "extra" cells to 4.05-4.10V.

    Cold temperatures can also have a negative effect on Li-Ion cells. If you plan to use your Li-Ion cells in extreme cold, charge to 4.10V rather than 4.20V, there have been some reports of increased risk of cell problems (leaking, bursting, etc) when fully charged cells are exposed to extreme cold.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Voltage Concepts of Tactical Lamps and Lithium cells


    if your getting 8.4Volts on a fresh charge and ur not giving the full 9V you obviouslly lose some lumens and power right ? what would you be getting with those 20mins in aprox. lumens? or would you get the full 320lumens?
    Let me begin by saying- if you took a 9V tactical lamp assembly, made by Surefire, LemensFactory, anybody.... doesn't matter, and put it on a bench power supply and set it to 9V at the bulb, it would not last very long at all. Especially the high power ones like the EO-9 and P91, which would probably instaflash at 9V. The HO-9 might last a few minutes to an hour if your lucky. The lower power bulbs might last a little while, the very lower output bulbs (less than an amp) would probably work fine on 9V...

    Now.. here's why. This is hard to follow because it's one of those double reverse things where it is the way it is because of the way something it is this way..bleh.. I'll try....

    CR123A primary cells, when BRAND new, fresh out of the box, measure about 3.2V per cell. However. When you put a load on them, that voltage does not stay 3.2. This is the case with ALL batteries. They have an open circuit voltage, and they have a working voltage. Depending on how much you demand from the cell (in amps) will determine how much variation there is between open circuit voltage and working voltage... Please Refer to Silverfoxes charts of CR123A discharge characteristics here http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ad.php?t=67078
    You will see that at 1 Amp, most cells almost immediately sag to 2.5V.

    Now, most standard 9V lamps are from 1.1-1.3 Amp. The HO-9 is about 1.5Amp. At 1.5Amp we can expect the average CR123A cell to sag to about 2.4V within a few seconds of being fresh. 3X2.4V=7.2V
    So.. when designing high power tactical lamps, they take this into consideration.. They need the lamp to be able to survive that initial high-voltage spike of the first few seconds, but they try to make the bulb in such a way that it will run strong and bright far below 9V, because in reality, the bulb will rarely if ever actually get 9V after the voltage sag of the batteries under a load.

    Take a look under "lamp specifications" at this page: http://www.lumensfactory.com/specifications
    you'll see they have designed the target voltage for 9V lamp to be 7.6V. smart eh?
    Also take note of the EO-9, which is a 7.2V lamp... this is because it draws 2.0amps and sags the voltage of the cells down even further. they took this into consideration when designing this lamp, by doing so, it is brighter and whiter off of the cells it was intended to be used with.

    Now... Here's the deal withe Li-Ion.
    Yes they do only come off the charger at 4.2V (8.4V total for a pair in series). But as you can see above, the fresh voltage of a cell says very little about the way it works under a load. GENERALLY speaking, Lithium Ion cells suffer from less voltage sag than Lithium Primaries. As a result of this, the ideal voltage range for running a 9V tactical lamp is reached without a problem. Now.... Ordinarily speaking. The ideal setup is to use a 3 cell light like the C3 or 9P or something. This way you can use larger cells. For example. A pair of 17500 size cells are a direct replacement for a set of 3 CR123s. The larger higher capacity cells will also perform as well or better than the original configuration of 3 CR123s.. When you step down a "notch" in size and try to run powerful 9V lamp assemblies off of small RCR123 cells, depending on the cell, you do loose a little bit of performance and a lot of runtime trying to get so much out of so little... but if compact size and bright are important, then we make these sacrifices. As far as real world use goes, you wouldn't be able to tell much different between a HO-9 on a pair of RCR123s to a HO-9 on 3 CR123s... in fact, it's hard to distinguish the difference between LFs HO-9 and EO-9. The human eye just isn't a very good light meter. On a pair of BIG Li-Ion cells like 17670s, the HO-9 runs at about 1.6Amp. On the small RCR123s, it runs closer to 1.5Amp.... So a bigger set of cells will run a little brighter, but you can't see much difference. For long runtime, many people are using "4 cell" sized bodies (length of 4 CR123A cells) that are bored to accept 18mm diameter cells... a pair of 18650s gives about 2200mAh capacity instead of the ~550mAh you get from a pair of RCR123s, So they can drive even more powerful lamps, or run the regular ones much longer. But at the sacrifice of space... [WOLF-EYES and PILA brand lights come from the factory with 18mm diameter cells in mind, no boring neccessary, if you are new to the world of Li-Ion, you would do yourself a great favor to start with one of these brands, being able to support the extra mm diameter cell, adds about 30-50% capacity and current capability to your configuration, you can also piece together a Surfire Style Light using many of the available Surefire heads, bezels, tailcaps, and lamps, in conjunction with Leef or FM bodies sold at Lighthound. The result is Surefire Like quality with support for 18mm cells. this is generally the most expensive, but also the most rewarding, and adaptable option available.]

    It's important to note that rechargeable cells are often rated differently than primary cells. Specifically, most primary cells are rated at their "fresh" open-circuit voltage output, while most rechargeable cells are rated at their "nominal" or average output into a load. So a CR123 primary is rated 3.0V, but in reality, under a load, it is usually around 2.25V-2.75V depending on how demanding the load. A Li-Ion cell is rated 3.7V, but in reality, it actually HOLDS 3.7V or higher into most loads. [food for thought time]:The same holds true in comparing Alkaline primary cells to rechargeable NIMH cells. In reality, even thought the NIMH is only rated 1.2V, it will often hold a higher voltage through most of a discharge than it's "1.5V" Alkaline cousin.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    More cell safety concepts "Cs"


    "Most of these cells are designed to be used up to a 2C current draw, no more " what do you mean by this ?
    The "C" rating is the multiplier to discover the maximum safe discharge and charge characteristics.. I mentioned those characteristics above... Now I'll explain further..

    It's quite simple really: easiest thing for me to do is give examples:
    cell 1 example:
    18500 sized Li-Ion Cell
    1500mAh capacity
    2C max discharge
    1C max charge
    take the "2" before the C for max discharge and multiply by the mAh capacity rating of the cell. 2x1500=3000mA max discharge. or 3Amps. same for charge, 1x1500=1500, this cell can be charged at 1.5Amps, no more..

    cell 2 example:
    26650 size Li-Poly<-
    3100mAh capacity
    10C max discharge
    4C max charge
    Take "10" X 3100 = 31,000mA max discharge... 31 Amps. wow! (some Polymer cells can do this... RC guys use stuff like this)
    "4"Cx3100mAh = 12.4Amp max charge rate... This cell could be safely charged from dead to full in about 15 minutes without damage.


    Ratings like this are given to all sorts of batteries... You just take the C rating and multiply by capacity to find out the maximum current allowed for that function..

    There are some batteries specifically designed for the safe delivery of up to a hundred amps or more.

    Unfortunately, The LiCo cells we use, aren't so advanced just yet. Most of the Li-Ion cells we are using are rated between 1.5 and 2C...

    It has been recently brought to my attention by Silverfox, that the cell manufactures, and the cell labelers, may not really be "in agreement" when rating cells. Until I can gather more information on this, consider configurations with an estimated runtime of less than 30 minutes, to be pushing cells "beyond 2C." Something that the original cell manufacture would not have recommended. So if the maximum discharge rate is 2C, it only means "capacity x 2" IF the cell holds it's rated capacity at that load. Most cells do not deliver their rated capacity into high loads, so it's important to re-calculate the maximum safe discharge rate based on the typical capacity of a cell into a particular load. See safety/use section above for further information. The cells that this issue seems to be MOST PREVALENT for are the RCR123 size cells, which seem to come with the most inflated capacity ratings. (by as much as 75% or more in some cases, which can lead people to believe they have a much higher safe discharge rate then they do in reality) Most larger format cells sold by AW/WE/Pila are very close to their rated capacity and can be used pretty close to a discharge rate that is double the rated capacity. (A 1.5 or 1.6AH 17670 should handle a ~3 amp load pretty safely).

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The "Guilt Free" Lumens concept

    A long time ago(before my time even), a very valued member here at CPF, Paul_In_Maryland, coined the phrase "guilt-free lumens." Here's what he was talking about.


    went through 4 surefire 123s today playing with it, and have decided ..time for rechargeable cells!.
    The whole reason so many of us are going rechargable is to be able to just play , guilt free. Showing off a fancy light shouldn't come at the guilt of knowing that it is sucking down 2-10+ dollars an hour (depending on configuration) in primary cells. Having rechargeables in a light also lets you use it for more tasks where it is handy, but maybe not necessary, without feeling that guilt of coming that much closer to dropping in more and more cells.

    Rechargeable Lithium Ion cells will often deliver 300-1000 cycles depending on how they are used. at a cost of about $6-25 per cell, all it takes is about 6-25 cycles for the cells to have paid for themselves when compared to lithium photo batteries. Since li-ion cells can be "topped up" at any time, we can, guilt free, always have "fresh" cells in the flashlight. Never to throw out a partially depleted cell again because we want to go back to "full brightness." Keep this in mind when choosing cells remember that even if you buy the MOST EXPENSIVE Li-Ion cells they will still be saving you money in the long run. So getting good quality cells shouldn't be looked at as "too expensive" when in reality, it's still cheaper than running primaries.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Lumens, Watts, FUN

    would you get the full 320 lumens[using 2x lithium ion to drive a 9V bulb]???.
    All I can say here is.. try not to get too hung up on lumens.. (I do all the time, but I shouldn't)... For starters, there is such a massive difference in the way different manufactures measure and rate lumens, that you cannot compare the numbers, you have to know the lamps first hand, or have a really good idea of how they were rated to get the number..

    The best way to compare tactical incandescent lights... is to compare power consumption. Keep in mind that different configurations may have different efficiencies, so this isn't an exactly perfect comparison, but it's worth consideration for a "rule of thumb" comparison.
    Your P60 is a ~5V lamp that draws ~1.2Amp. it's about 6 Watts of light. The HO-9 is ~7.2V on fresh RCR123s at about 1.55Amp, or about 11Watts...it's about twice as bright. By comparison, a P61 is about 4.5V in operation by about 2.5Amps, which is also about 11W... notice how the P61 is rated 120 lumen by Surefire, The HO-9 is rated 320 lumens by LF... and believe it or not... both companies have a legitimate number, because they measure differently. Surefire is talking about torch lumens at some point during the discharge (like with half used batteries)... LF is talking about bulb lumens on ~fresh cells. I think Surefire also derates even farther than that... It's nuts how underrated some of their lamps are.

    Keep in mind that the eyes are not a very good judge of lumens, and we can not very accurately distinguish a difference unless the difference is about 30% or more. So often times, a "step down" in brightness is just as useful, while provided longer runtime and a better overall utility value of the flashlight. Also keep in mind, that eyes adjust for light intensity, so in a totally dark environment, like out in the woods away from a city, a few lumens goes a long way. Competing with other sources of light to bring the light on a subject "up to" the level of it's surroundings is a situation that often demands more lumens. There is often a misunderstanding that you need more light the darker it is, this couldn't be farther from the truth. In the woods with no ambient light, 100-200 lumens is awesome. In town, lighting up an address at 75ft can take 400-1000 lumens before it is easily visible when eyes are adjusted for all the ambient light.

    When you desire an "upgrade" in brightness, choose a configuration that is at LEAST double the wattage you are currently running to be impressed. Like going from a P90 to a P91.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "3.0V" lithium Ion rechargeable cells


    Very often, someone asks a question about using a "special" type of Li-Ion rechargeable battery that is supposedly 3.0V. They usually want to use a pair of these to run their 6V lamps. This is my response to anyone considering this setup...


    either:
    1. The cells will have protection circuits and won't power up the P60.
    2. The cells won't have large enough voltage regulators to handle the current and the will go bad after a few cycles.
    3. The P60 will burn out, instantly, or after a few cycles because the Li-Ion 3.0V does not sag under a load as much as the primary cells the lamp was designed for do.
    4. The cells will not live up to their capacity rating at the level of power you demand from them, giving poor runtime (10-20 minutes)
    5. The voltage regulator in the cell will overheat, in conjunction with the heat from the lamp, and the cell, you will be at high risk of vent-with-flame.
    6. You wish you had just started with the 9V configuration to begin with.

    choose one of the following configurations:
    1. a 3.7V bulb powered by 1 Lithium-Ion Cell.
    2. a 9V bulb powered by 2 Lithium-Ion Cells.
    3. a 13V bulb powered by 3 Lithium-Ion Cells.

    This response is in reference to 3.7V Lithium Cobalt Oxide cells that have voltage regulators built in to step down the voltage.

    There are some new chemistries of Lithium rechargeables coming out, for example, LifeP04 chemistry. This guide does not cover the uses of these cells as they are very new, time will tell what configurations these cells are good for.

    I would like to make note, that it is sometimes becoming hard to distinguish what cells really are "under the hood." Many LiFeP04 cells are simply sold as "3.0V Li-Ion cells" which can make it difficult to know what they are. Different types of "3.0V" cells have different charging requirements, anywhere from 3.6V, 3.8V, 4.4V, and 4.5V, and chargers are often very misleading on which type of 3.0V cell they are intended to charge. If you do have a special application for a 3.0V cell, please be absolutely certain you are getting the proper charger, check with the distributor of the cells, they usually sell "bungles" that include the correct charger for the cell being sold. At this time, I recommend LiFeP04 "3.0V" cells over the previous generation 3.7V cells with regulators in them. The new chemistry is very safe. They don't have as much total capacity, but at least you don't have to worry about them misbehaving.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why doesn't my flashlight work?

    There are an enormous number of threads started like this:
    I bought rechargeable protected cells from "X seller" and it isn't working???
    5 times out of 10, the protection circuit in the cell, is shutting down the cell before the lamp can come to life. This has been a problem for Li-Ion users since the beginning, but people ignore the suggestions, save a few dollars ordering cheap cells from some other place, and then find out that their cells are useless to them... Keep in mind that MOST protected Li-Ion cells were never designed with the characteristics of an incandescent bulb in mind, so they will not deliver the startup current that the bulb demands. Bulbs draw 3-5+ times their steady state power for the first few milliseconds. A cold filament has much less resistance than a hot one. If that power drain trips the protection in the cell, the light won't turn on.. In some cases, you can "tap" the switch a few times, to bring the filament up to temperature, but ideally speaking, having cells designed with incandescent lamps in mind is best. Please stick to AWs protected, Wolf-Eyes, or Pila cells. There have been some recent tests showing that Pila cells are slightly better performing than the others, but they are also quite expensive, so choose your cells wisely. At the time of writing this, AW is the only seller of a RCR123 sized cell WITH a protection circuit that will reliably and safely light up lamps up to 1.5Amp without the need for "double tapping" or any other issues.

    4 times out of 10, the flashlight is not working because there is a break in electrical contact somewhere in the path. Keep in mind that lithium-ion cells in various configurations may be +/- a few mm from original CR123 configuration. Many lithium-ion cells do not have the button contacts on the positive ends the way ordinary primary cells do. The positive end is often recessed about 0.5mm from the shrink-wrapping. The most common solution to making contact between cells is the use of small neodymium "rare-earth" magnets between the cells. Many users advise against using these magnets because there is a risk of the magnet sliding to the edge of the body and shorting out a cell. It has been my experience, that if there is a lip on the cell preventing contact to the next cell, that lip will usually prevent the shifting of the magnet. The use of protected cells also reduces the risk in using magnets because 99% of the time you short out a protected cell, it will shut down within a millisecond, preventing damage to the cell. If you drop your flashlight, and you are using magnets to make contact, I recommend removing the cells, and checking for magnet placement as soon as possible to prevent any complications. Other connection issues can often be solved by stretching a spring, or cleaning up contact points. (sanding, pro-golding, etc).

    AW often sends magnets when you buy batteries and chargers from him that may need them. Most Radio Shack stores also carry packs of 2 under the part number 64-1895. These are perfect size... However, the RadioShack variety does not have a nickel plating like most others, so they are more prone to shatter under stress, so be careful when handling them.

    1 out of 10 times, the bulb or switch is burnt out and the user is unaware. You can use a DMM set to ohms, (or continuity check) to test bulbs and switches. A reading indicating "open circuit" or very high resistance (several thousand ohms or higher) will almost always mean a burnt out bulb or busted switch.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avoid Unprotected LiCo cells

    We will always have people using unprotected LiCo cells for various reasons. These cells are often much cheaper. They do work, provided the user is willing to monitor the condition of the cells, and be very careful not to over-discharge the cells. Please avoid unprotected cells unless you know what you are doing. I'm not going to discuss setups involving unprotected cells in this guide. If it won't work with a protected cell, it's probably a dangerous configuration that should be avoided.

    If you are going to build up a configuration that uses unprotected cells, please choose a quality brand cell to minimize risk. Off-brand cells may not be very well matched capacity wise from cell to cell which could lead to unforeseen problems. some quality unprotected cells are LG, Sony, and Panasonic.

    [edit in 11/11/08]{LiMn chemistry cells are not available with protection circuits and do not need protection circuits, ignore this warning if you are using LiMn chemistry cells}

    The use of magnets to make contact between unprotected cells (regardless of chemistry) is very risky as the magnet can shift and make contact with the body of the flashlight and short out the cell.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cell sizes

    So what's with all the numbers? Lets decrypt the code

    Here's some references to cell sizes and their names, Pila and Wolf-eyes make 4 cell sizes... they are roughly the same as the "industry" sizes by the following chart.
    AW follows the "normal" cell naming structure described below:

    mm diameter x mm length, the 0 on the end stands for cylindrical.
    a 21370 cell would be 21mm diameter, 37mm long, cylindrical.

    AW...WE...PILA
    17500/150B/300S=1.5x length of a CR123 and slightly thicker, fits most SF bodies. capacity ~1000-1100mAh
    18500/150A/300P=1.5x length of a CR123 and quite a bit thicker, fits WE, Pila, Leef bodies, and some other chinese lights. capacity ~1400-1500mAh
    17670/168B/600S= 2x length of a CR123 and slightly thicker, fits most SF bodies. capacity ~1500-1600mAh
    18650/168A/600P=2x length of a CR123 and quite a bit thicker, fits WE, Pila, Leef bodies, and some other chinese lights. capacity ~1800-2600mAh

    the 123 reference:
    16340=16320=16330=CR123A=R123=RCR123A. we have lots of ways we "short-hand" these common cells, often just called "123" in reference to this size cell.
    Primary CR123As: 3.0V 1300mAh
    Li-Ion RCR123As: 3.7V ~500-600mAh

    more size references
    15270=CR2 lithium photo battery size
    14670=4/3AA (often used in some SF bodies that are so narrow, that a 17670 will not fit, also used in mag-light mods a lot)
    14500= same size as a AA cell
    14250= same diameter, half the length of an AA cell
    10440= AAA cell size

    There are a lot more cells out there, this is just some of the stuff we see around here pretty commonly.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Compatibility

    Now we know how big the cells are, where do I stuff em?

    If a CR123A, is 16mm x 34mm, and we have a flashlight that holds 2 cells, then we have about ~67mm of length to work with. If this is a Surefire, then we probably have room for a 17mm diameter cell, if it's a Wolf-Eyes, then we have room for a 18mm diameter cell. We can use either a 17670, or an 18650 size cell, or 2 RCR123 size cells, we can use 3.7V, or 9V lamps.

    If we buy a flashlight that holds 3 of these. Then we have about ~100mm of length to work with. So a PAIR of 17500, or 18500 cells, would fit great. This will drive 9V lamps. There are a few configurations that would allow the use of 3 RCR123 cells driving a ~13V lamp in this size body as well.

    If our flashlight holds 4 of these cells, then we have more like ~130mm of length to work with. So we are going to use a PAIR of 17670 or 18650 size cells to drive a 9V lamp.

    There are some custom configurations made possible through the use of Wolf-Eyes extenders/bodies, Leef bodies, and other modifications, that allow the use of 3 50mm long cells, or 3 ~65mm long cells, to drive 13V "turbo" lamps.

    I have added a list of well known configurations that use D26 type lamps and many other lamps in the next post of this guides thread.

    There are many other brands of tactical lights that use similar configurations of photo batteries, and lamps. Ultrafire and Superfire tactical lights, G&P tactical lights, PILA tactical lights. There are also some "no-name" oddballs that can be had for very cheap through sources like http://www.dealextreme.com that support the common 26mm lamp and photo batteries. To maximize your success rate on li-ion conversions, I suggest sticking to higher quality stuff that has good dealer/manufacture support. Wolf-Eyes and Pila are a great place to start if you want to buy a purpose designed Li-Ion powered incandescent flashlight.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LINKS

    I decided to add a section with links to lamps and cells:

    AW cells:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=140362
    http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?...S&Category=167
    (the ones with black shrink-wrapping and silver labels are the ones you want.

    Wolf-Eyes cells and lamps:
    http://www.pts-flashlights.com/category.aspx?uid=1

    Wolf-Eyes and LumensFactory Dealer in Australia:
    http://wolfeyes.com.au/

    Pila Cells and flashlights:
    http://www.jsburlysflashlights.com/c...ef=pila_lights

    G&P lamps:
    http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?...S&Category=172
    http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.101
    http://www.qualitychinagoods.com/fla...b-c-76_79.html
    http://kaidomain.com/WEBUI/SubCategory.aspx?TranID=8178
    also check dealer section of CPF and MANY G&P resellers on ebay.

    Lumens Factory Lamps:
    http://www.lumensfactory.com/
    http://www.pts-flashlights.com/category.aspx?uid=76

    Surefire lamps and flashlights:
    http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/...r/16/sesent/00
    many other sources, check dealer section http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ad.php?t=56067

    Keep in mind there are more sources for many of these products, but this is where many of us are getting this stuff.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    credits, thank-yous, misc

    Most of this is copy/pasted from my responses in other threads, I am adding and re-arranging and organizing and elaborating on particular areas as I edit.

    Special thanks to Paul_In_Maryland for teaching me when I came to CPF (and many others). And to those who asked all the great questions to make this possible.. Also, Thank you members Silverfox and Newbie and others who are continually increasing safety awareness of Lithium-chemistry cells here at CPF. Your tests and expertise are invaluable.

    I will continue to update and improve and expand this guide for as long as I can edit the thread. It's kinda still in rough-draft stages.

    ENJOY! CHEERS!
    Last edited by mdocod; 09-14-2010 at 03:04 PM.

  2. #2
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Post Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    SAFE Configuration Compatibility chart:

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    compatibility confirmation:
    +++ 95-100% usually a confirmed configuration
    ++ 80-95% confidence, unconfirmed till further notice (probably works)
    + 50-80% confidence, unconfirmed till further notice (I'm not sure)

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    In time, I'm going to try to include every common lamp, Li-Ion battery, and body configuration commonly available to CPFers. Here's a start to the chart... If you know of a configuration that is not listed here that is safe and is primarily "plug-n-play" please let me know and I'll add it to the chart. I'll list approximated wattage, torch lumens, and runtime.

    I'm including all configurations that push cells up to around 2C, some are considered borderline, anything with an estimated 20 minute runtime is borderline safe, select a longer running setup of you want to maximize safety. Anything with an estimated 30 minute or greater runtime is a good versatile configuration that can sustain many cycles. Anything listed as having a "20" minute runtime, should be used with more attention to detail. Cells will wear out quickly in these configurations and must be monitored appropriately. Read and re-read safety information about these cells to use these configuration, be prepared to replace cells in as little as 25 cycles depending on the depth of the cycles and the quality of the cells. Some cells seem to tolerate borderline drain rates better than others, but it is the end-users responsibility to monitor the cells and know when to stop using them.

    [UPDATE 7-23-07] I'm working on updating the charts, including new products and changing (for the 3rd time) the way I display comparative lumen and runtime values. As I convert over to the "new" system you'll see 2 lumen values listed as a sort of "range" over "time." This range represents the typical starting and near-end torch lumen values for different configurations. I have done this in an effort to increase the accuracy of what is being represented. So you can easily see how a different size cell impacts both runtime and brightness THROUGH the run. These lumen values are based on typical average cells that are relatively new, and a flashlight that is maintained properly (clean contacts, de-ox, pro-gold, etc). This is by far the most accurate representation and comparison of these lamps to date. While every value in the chart has been calculated, keep in mind that I literally had to make logical educated guesses on the values of some lamps, to have a starting point to apply the computations to. So not everything in this chart is 100% accurate, it's still just a ballpark reference. So leave room for some variation. +/-10% at least.



    D26 configurations:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 1xIMR16340

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes
    WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
    LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minut

    Body options:
    SureFire 3P
    FiveMega 1x16340 body w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Ultra/Super/Trust/Solar/Force/Fire 3P clones. (model number varies, good luck)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 1x17500

    Bulb options:
    LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 103 - 62 lumen in 34 minutes.
    G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 111 - 62 lumen in 27 minutes.
    WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 110 - 63 lumen in 28 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 8W, 111 - 62 lumen in 27 minutes

    Body options:
    Leefbody 1x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel +++

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 1x18500

    Bulb options:
    LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 68 lumen in 44 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 116 - 70 lumen in 36 minutes
    WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 112 - 67 lumen in 38 minutes
    LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 120 - 67 lumen in 34 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 116 - 70 lumen in 36 minutes

    Body options:
    Leefbody 1x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel +++

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 1x17670

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes
    WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
    LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2. +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
    DX "JALL" ++
    Ultrafire/Superfire 2 cell: WF501B, WF502B, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
    Cabellas XPG 6V 2 cell +++
    G&P 6P, T-6 +++
    Brinkman Maxfire LX +++ (requires removal of built in reflector, lamps don't seat perfectly centered)
    Pila GL2 ++
    Huntlight FT-01 +
    Pelican M6 new version only +

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 1x18650

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 107 - 71 lumen in 68 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 121 - 80 lumen in 55 minutes
    WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 116 - 77 lumen in 58 minutes
    LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 129 - 85 lumen in 52 minutes
    G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 121 - 80 lumen in 55 minutes

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
    DX "JALL" ++
    Pila GL2 ++
    Huntlight FT-01 +

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 98 - 56 lumen in 38 minutes
    LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 126 - 74 lumen in 25 minutes
    LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 160 - 88 lumen in 20 minutes
    SF P90: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
    G&P G90: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes
    Pathfinder P90: 10W, 129 - 75 lumen in 23 minutes
    WE D26 9V: 10W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes
    Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2. +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
    DX "JALL" ++
    Ultrafire/Superfire 2 cell: WF501B, WF502B, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
    Cabellas XPG 6V 2 cell +++
    G&P 6P, T-6 +++
    Brinkman Maxfire LX +++ (requires removal of built in reflector, lamps don't seat perfectly centered)
    Pila GL2 ++
    Huntlight FT-01 +
    Pelican M6 new version only +

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xIMR16340

    (these are rougher estimates than most of the others in the chart, but should be close enough to accurate for comparisons sake)

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 110 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
    LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 150 - 85 lumen in 25 minutes
    LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 195 - 100 lumen in 19 minutes
    LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 240 - 110 lumen in 15 minutes
    SF P90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
    SF P91: 20W, 300 - 125 lumen in 10 minutes
    G&P G90: 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 145 - 80 lumen in 25 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
    Pathfinder P90: 10W, 155 - 90 lumen in 23 minutes
    WE D26 9V: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
    Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 165 - 90 lumen in 22 minutes
    FM1794 in FM bi-pin D26: 22+W, 350 - 150 lumen in 8 minutes

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2. +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo). +++
    DX "JALL" ++
    Ultrafire/Superfire 2 cell: WF501B, WF502B, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
    Cabellas XPG 6V 2 cell +++
    G&P 6P, T-6 +++
    Brinkman Maxfire LX +++ (requires removal of built in reflector, lamps don't seat perfectly centered)
    Pila GL2 ++
    Huntlight FT-01 +
    Pelican M6 new version only +

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17500

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 115 - 75 lumen in 73 minutes
    LF D26 SR-9: 9W, 160 - 100 lumen in 51 minutes
    LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 215 - 132 lumen in 40 minutes
    LF D26 EO-9: 15W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes
    SF P90: 9W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
    G&P G90: 9W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 9W, 153 - 95 lumen in 52 minutes (guess)
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 10.5W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes (guess)
    Pathfinder P90: 10W, 165 - 102 lumen in 47 minutes
    WE D26 9V: 10W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes
    Pila GL3 LA: 10W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    Surefire G3, 9P, C3, +++
    Wolf-Eyes 9 series Raider (non-turbo) +++
    Ultrafire/Superfire 3 cell: WF501C, WF502C, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
    Cabellas XPG 9V 3 cell +++
    G&P 9P, T-9 +++
    Pila GL3 ++

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18500

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 116 - 76 lumen in 94 minutes
    LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 162 - 105 lumen in 65 minutes
    LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 217 - 139 lumen in 51 minutes
    LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 272 - 171 lumen in 39 minutes
    SF P90: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
    SF P91: 20W, 320 - 170 lumen in 28 minutes
    G&P G90: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W, 157 - 100 lumen in 67 minutes (guess)
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes (guess)
    Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 107 lumen in 61 minutes
    WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes
    Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes
    FM1794

    Body Options:
    Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Wolf-Eyes 9 series Raider (non-turbo) +++
    Pila GL3 ++

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17670


    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 116 - 76 lumen in 105 minutes
    LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 163 - 106 lumen in 73 minutes
    LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 218 - 140 lumen in 57 minutes
    LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 273 - 172 lumen in 44 minutes
    SF P90: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
    SF P91: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes
    G&P G90: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W, 158 - 102 lumen in 74 minutes (guess)
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W, 179 - 115 lumen in 66 minutes (guess)
    Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 107 lumen in 67 minutes
    WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 179 - 115 lumen in 66 minutes
    Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 179 - 115 lumen in 66 minutes
    FM1794

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +TWO 1 cell extenders ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    Surefire [G3, 9P, C3] +ONE 1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++ (requires modification)
    Ultrafire/Superfire 4 cell: WF501D, WF502D, ++(some rare UF heads don't fit LF lamps)
    Cabellas XPG 12V 4 cell +++
    G&P 12P, T-12 +++

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18650

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 ES-9: 7W, 117 - 77 lumen in 147 minutes
    LF D26 SR-9: 10W, 163 - 110 lumen in 102 minutes
    LF D26 HO-9: 12W, 219 - 145 lumen in 80 minutes
    LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
    SF P90: 9.5W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
    SF P91: 20W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
    G&P G90: 9.5W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W, 158 - 105 lumen in 104 minutes (guess)
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes (guess)
    Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 112 lumen in 94 minutes
    WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes
    Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes
    FM1794

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++(requires modification)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xIMR18650

    Bulb Options:
    LF D26 ES-9: 7W
    LF D26 SR-9: 10W
    LF D26 HO-9: 12W
    LF D26 EO-9: 15.5W
    SF P90: 9.5W
    G&P G90:
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 10W xenon": 10W
    G&P D26 7.4V "DX 15W xenon": 11W
    Pathfinder P90: 10.5W, 167 - 112 lumen in 94 minutes
    WE D26 9V: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes
    Pila GL3 LA: 10.5W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes

    (P91 and FM1794 should be avoided, will reduce bulb life substantially, very likely to just instaflash the bulb)

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++(requires modification)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 3x RCR123

    Bulb Options:
    G&P G120: 15W, 275 - 145 lumen in 20 minutes (HIGH risk of instaflashing bulb, hard on cells)

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +1 cell extender +++
    Surefire G3, 9P, C3, +++
    Wolf-Eyes 9 series Raider (non-turbo) +++
    Ultrafire/Superfire 3 cell: WF501C, WF502C, +++
    Cabellas XPG 9V 3 cell +++
    G&P 9P, T-9 +++
    Pila GL3 ++

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Cell configuration: 4xRCR123


    Bulb Options:
    G&P G140: 20W, 320 - 187 lumen in 22 minutes (guess) (new found configuration, long-term reliability unknown, seems stable, hard on cells)

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +TWO 1 cell extenders +++
    Surefire [G3, 9P, C3] +ONE 1 cell extender +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +ONE LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mod. ++
    Ultrafire/Superfire 4 cell: WF501D, WF502D, +++
    Cabellas XPG 12V 4 cell +++
    G&P 12P, T-12 +++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Cell configuration: 4x17500


    Bulb Options:
    G&P G140: 20W, 380 - 220 lumen in 44 minutes (guess) (new found configuration, long-term reliability unknown, never been tried as far as I know)

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap/bezel. +++
    Surefire [G2, 6P, C2, Z2, G2Z, M2] +FOUR 1 cell extenders +++
    Surefire [G3, 9P, C3] +THREE 1 cell extender +++
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series sniper (non-turbo) +TWO LRB-168 extender, + copper wire mods. ++
    Cabellas XPG 12V 4 cell +TWO SF compatible 1 cell extenders +++
    G&P 12P, T-12 +TWO SF compatible 1 cell extenders +++

    I would guess that this lamp may be able to run on 4 18500s as well, or 4 17670s or 18650s, provided someone were willing to stack enough extenders, I'm not going to bother listing this configurations, as even this one listed above has not been tried (to my knowledge) by anybody, and becomes about as LONG as a light ever should....

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well.... That's all the D26 configurations I can think of at the moment... At the time of writing this, I'm NOT going to say that all of these configurations work...

    Wolf-Eyes and Pila Body lights use a slightly different lamp assembly style, various modifications are sometimes necessary
    to make proper contact with non-Pila/WE lamps.

    For a list of even more D26 compatible hosts, check here:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=186661

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Turbo Head configurations

    Let me start by saying, that I am not nearly as familiar with turbo configurations. There are so many different types of turbo lamps and configurations available that this is practically mind boggling. The main problem, is that there are many different turbo lamp types, and there is very limited compatibility from one brand to the next. Unlike the D26 configurations, which are all based around the same lamp assembly. I'm going to need help revising this. Consider this chart "ALPHA" stage. I think most of this works, but I would want to have a few of our more experienced members in this area review this section before saying that this is "for sure."

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cell configuration: 1x17670

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 3.7V: 8W, 116 - 71 lumen in 42 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series explorer (with turbohead) +++

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 1x18650

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 3.7V: 8W, 119 - 80 lumen in 58 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series explorer (with turbohead) +++

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN15: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
    SF N2: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes

    Body Options:
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    G&P T6 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    (any other 2 cell SF compatible body with SF KT1/2/4 installed)

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 9.0V: 10W, 136 - 80 lumen in 23 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes 6 series explorer (with turbohead) ++

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    XPG 9V extreme performance head: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
    G&P X9 head: 9W, 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes

    Body Options:
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell ++
    G&P T6 ++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2 +
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap +

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 2xIMR16340

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN15: 10W
    SF MN16
    SF N2: 10W
    SF MN20: 20W
    LF HO-M3T: 16W
    LF EO-M3T: 18.5W
    LF IMR-M3T:
    GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    (theoretically, these cells could also be used to push the MN21, 5761, 64275 and other 4-5+ amp bulbs, but this would be over AWs maximum recommended current limit. I would suggest only using such configurations in short bursts, they would only run for a few minutes anyways. Might be fun just to show off with).

    Body Options:
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    G&P T6 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    (any other 2 cell SF compatible body with SF KT1/2/4 installed)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17500

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN15: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
    SF N2: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
    LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes
    GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    Body Options:
    SF M3T +++
    SF M3 +KT4 ++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
    G&P T9 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    G&P T6 +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17500

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 9.0V: 10.5W, 175 - 108 lumen in 46 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes 9 series raider (with turbohead [option D]) +++

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17500

    Bulb Options:
    XPG 9V extreme performance head: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
    G&P X9 head: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes

    Body Options:
    Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell ++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2, + 1 cell extender +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 9P, C3, G3, +
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap. +
    G&P T9 +
    G&P X9 ++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18500

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 9.0V: 10.5W, 177 - 114 lumen in 59 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes 9 series raider (with turbohead [option D]) +++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18500

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN15: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
    SF N2: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
    SF MN16: 20W, 320 - 170 lumen in 28 minutes
    SF MN20: 19W, 270 - 157 lumen in 31 minutes
    LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 272 - 171 lumen in 39 minutes
    LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 306 - 172 lumen in 33 minutes
    GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17670

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN15: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
    SF N2: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
    SF MN16: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes
    SF MN20: 19W, 272 - 160 lumen in 34 minutes
    LF HO-M3T: 15.5W, 273 - 172 lumen in 44 minutes
    LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 308 - 175 lumen in 35 minutes
    GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    SF M3T +1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF M3 + 1 cell extender, +KT4 ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF M4
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +TWO 1 cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 9P, C3, (G3?), + 1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    Cabelas XPG 12V 4 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    G&P T12 4 cell +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell + 1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    G&P T9 3 cell + 1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +TWO 1 cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    G&P T6 2 cell +TWO 1 cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17670

    Bulb Options:
    XPG 9V extreme performance head: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
    G&P X9 head: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes

    Body Options:
    Cabelas XPG 12V 4 cell ++
    G&P T12 4 cell ++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2, + 2 1 cell extenders +
    SF 9P, C3, G3, + 1 cell extender +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap. +

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17670

    Bulb Options:
    LF SR-9L: 13W, 238 - 151 lumen in 57 minutes
    LF HO-9L: 16W, 280 - 179 lumen in 44 minutes
    LF EO-9L: 18.5W, 322 - 201 lumen in 36 minutes
    WE D36 9V: 11W, 179 - 113 lumen in 66 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes M90 Rattlesnake +++
    Pila GL4 ++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18650

    Bulb Options:
    LF SR-9L: 13W, 238 - 159 lumen in 80 minutes
    LF HO-9L: 16W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
    LF EO-9L: 18.5W, 322 - 212 lumen in 49 minutes
    WE D36 9V: 11W, 179 - 119 lumen in 93 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes M90 Rattlesnake +++
    Pila GL4 ++

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18650

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN15: 10W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
    SF N2: 10W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
    SF MN16: 20.5W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
    SF MN20: 20W, 300 - 186 lumen in 47 minutes
    SF MN21: 37W, 600 - 375 lumen in 15-20 minutes (unprotected cells required, dangerous configuration)
    LF HO-M3T: 16W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes
    LF EO-M3T: 18.5W, 322 - 212 lumen in 49 minutes
    GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    WA1111 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    Osram 64250 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    Philips 5761 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket: (requires unprotected LiCo cells, only recommended for advanced users.)

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++
    SureFire M6 w/2x18650 adapter

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xIMR18650 (LiMn chemistry cells)

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN15: 10W
    SF N2: 10W
    SF MN20: 20W
    SF MN21: 37W
    LF HO-M3T: 16W
    LF EO-M3T: 18.5W
    LF IMR-M3T:
    GE787 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    Osram 64275 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    (MN16, WA1111, and Osram 64250 are not compatible as they will just instaflash).

    Body Options:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    Leefbody 2x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++
    SureFire M6 w/2x18650 adapter

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 3xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    XPG 12V extreme performance head: 15W, 275 - 145 lumen in 20 minutes (HIGH risk of instaflashing bulb, hard on cells)
    G&P X12 head: 15W, 275 - 145 lumen in 20 minutes (HIGH risk of instaflashing bulb, hard on cells)

    Body Options:
    Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell ++
    G&P T9 +
    G&P X9 ++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, G2, + 1 cell extender +(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 9P, C3, G3, +
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap. +

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 3x17500

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 12V: 16.5W, 363 - 223 lumen in 44 minutes (bulb life reduced significantly, high risk instaflash)
    WE D36 13V: 18W, 352 lumen - 214 lumen in 40 minutes
    LF HO-13: 17W, 323 - 197 lumen in 44 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes M90 series RattleSnake +LRB150 extender +++

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 3x18500

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 12V: 16.5W, 365 - 235 lumen in 57 minutes (bulb life reduced significantly, high risk instaflash)
    WE D36 13V: 18W, 354 lumen - 225 lumen in 52 minutes
    LF HO-13: 17W, 325 - 207 lumen in 57 minutes
    LF EO-13: 25.5W, 480 - 284 lumen in 36 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes M90 series RattleSnake +LRB150 extender +++


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 3x17670

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN60: 20W, 436 - 263 lumen in 47 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
    SF MN61: 32W, 728 - 435 lumen in 27 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
    LF HO-M6R: 23W, 503 - 336 lumen in 41 minutes (best drop-in solution available for this config)
    WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    WA1185 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    Body Options:

    SF M3T +3 ONE cell extenders ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF M3 +3 ONE cell extenders, +KT4 ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF M4 + 2 ONE cell extenders, +++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +4 ONE cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 9P, C3, (G3?), + 3 ONE cell extenders, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    FiveMega or Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 +(unavailable hypothetical configuration)
    Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++
    SF M6 +FiveMega 3x17670 adapter

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 3x18650

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN60: 20W, 455 - 275 lumen in 72 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
    SF MN61: 32W, 760 - 455 lumen in 40 minutes (bulb life very short, but incredible)
    LF HO-M6R: 23W, 524 - 350 lumen in 58 minutes (best drop-in solution available for this config)
    WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    WA1185 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    Body Options:
    Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 +(unavailable hypothetical configuration)
    Leefbody 3x18650 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 3x18650

    Bulb Options:
    WE D36 13V: 18W, 354 - 237 lumen in 81 minutes
    LF HO-13: 17W, 325 - 218 lumen in 89 minutes
    LF EO-13: 25.5W, 525 - 350 lumen in 54 minutes

    Body Options:
    Wolf-Eyes M90 series RattleSnake +LRB168 extender +++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell Configuration: 3xIMR16340

    Bulb Options:
    SF MN60: 20W
    SF MN61: 32W
    LF HO-M6R: 23W
    LF IMR-M6:
    WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:
    WA1185 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    Body Options:
    SF M3T +++
    SF M3 +KT4 ++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) ++
    G&P T9 +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    G&P T6 +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +1 cell extender, +SF turbohead (KT1, KT2) +
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and head, +SF compatible tail-cap, +KT1/2 ++
    Leefbody 2x18500 w/C tail and M head, + SF compatible tail-cap, +KT4 ++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 6xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    MN60: 18W, 455 - 275 lumen in 41 minutes (bulb life reduced dramatically, but incredible)
    LF HO-M6R: 23W, 480 - 285 lumen in 30 minutes (best drop-in solution available for this config)
    WA1331 w/FM bi-pin>MN socket:

    Body:
    Surefire M6 +++
    Any SF compatible 1" body configured to a 6 cell length with a KT1/2/4 using appropriate adapters and extenders.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

    Bulb Option:
    SF MN10: 118 - 70 lumen in 25 minutes
    LF HO-M3: 160 - 88 lumen in 20 minutes

    Body Option:
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), + leef C to M adapter, + M3 bezel
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 adapted to M head (leef adapter) with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
    Any SF "C" thread compatible host, with C to M head adapter and M3 bezel

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xIMR123

    Bulb Option:
    SF MN10: 9.5W
    SF MN11: 20W
    LF HO-M3: 12W
    LF EO-M3: 15.5W

    Body Option:
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), + leef C to M adapter, + M3 bezel
    FiveMega or Leefbody 1x18650 adapted to M head (leef adapter) with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
    Any SF "C" thread compatible host, with C to M head adapter and M3 bezel

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17500

    Bulb Option:
    SF MN10: 9.5W, 151 - 94 lumen in 52 minutes
    LF HO-M3: 12W, 238 - 145 lumen in 40 minutes
    LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 268 - 162 lumen in 30 minutes

    Body Option:
    SF M3T body with standard M3 bezel installed +++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++
    G&P T9 ++leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    G&P T6 +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    SureFire M3 (non-turbo) +++
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 adapted to M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18500

    Bulb Option:
    SF MN10: 9.5W, 153 - 98 lumen in 67 minutes
    SF MN11: 20W, 320 - 170 lumen in 28 minutes
    LF HO-M3: 12W, 240 - 152 lumen in 51 minutes
    LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 272 - 171 lumen in 39 minutes

    Body Option:
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 adapted to M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x17670

    Bulb Option:
    MN10: 9.5W, 154 - 100 lumen in 74 minutes
    MN11: 20W, 330 - 175 lumen in 31 minutes
    LF HO-M3: 12W, 241 - 155 lumen in 57 minutes
    LF EO-M3: 15.5W, 273 - 172 lumen in 44 minutes

    Body Option:
    SF M3T body with standard M3 bezel installed +1 cell extender, +++
    SF 6P, C2, D2, Z2, M2, (G2?), +2 ONE cell extenders, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++
    SF 9P, C3, (G3?), +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel ++
    G&P T9 +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    G&P T6 +2 ONE cell extenders, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    Cabelas XPG 6V 2 cell +2 ONE cell extenders, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    Cabelas XPG 9V 3 cell +1 cell extender, +leef C to M adapter and M3 bezel +
    SureFire M3 + 1 cell extender ++(some extenders fit 17mm cells, some don't)
    Surefire M4 with M3 bezel installed +++
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18500 +1 cell extender, adapted to M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
    Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x18650

    Bulb Option:
    SF MN10: 10W, 154 - 103 lumen in 104 minutes
    SF MN11: 20.5W, 360 - 215 lumen in 43 minutes
    LF HO-M3: 12.5W, 241 - 169 lumen in 80 minutes
    LF EO-M3: 16.5W, 280 - 188 lumen in 60 minutes

    Body Option:
    Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 C head with C-M adapter +M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xIMR18650

    Bulb Option:
    SF MN10: 10W
    LF HO-M3: 12.5W
    LF EO-M3: 16.5W

    (MN11 should be avoided, it would probably just instaflash)

    Body Option:
    Leefbody 2x18650 M head with M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++
    FiveMega or Leefbody 2x18650 C head with C-M adapter +M3 head/bezel and SF compatible tailcap +++

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    SureFire "E" series with LumensFactory bulbs

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    cell configuration 1xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    LF HO-E1R: 3W, 39 - 23 lumen in 38 minutes
    LF EO-E1R: 4.5W, 59 - 35 lumen in 23 minutes

    Body:
    SureFire E1 or E1E

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    cell configuration 1xIMR16340

    Bulb Options:
    LF HO-E1R: 3W, 42 - 25 lumen in 36 minutes
    LF EO-E1R: 4.5W, 65 - 40 lumen in 23 minutes

    Body:
    SureFire E1 or E1E

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    cell configuration 1x17670

    Bulb Options:
    LF HO-E1R: 3W, 46- 30 lumen in 112 minutes
    LF EO-E1R: 4.5W, 76 - 49 lumen in 69 minutes

    Body:
    Surefire E2, E2E, or E2O

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    cell configuration 2xRCR123

    Bulb Options:
    LF HO-E2R: 5W, 90 - 52 lumen in 47 minutes
    LF EO-E2R: 6W, 117 - 67 lumen in 38 minutes

    Body:
    Surefire E2, E2E, or E2O

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Other flashlights

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Cell configuration: 2x17500

    Bulb Option:
    TL-3 bulb: 162 - 102 lumen in 49 minutes
    CA-1499 bi-pin: 14W, 255 - 161 lumen in 31 minutes

    Body Option:
    Streamlight TL-3 +++

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2xRCR123

    Bulb Option:
    TL-3 Bulb: 9.5W, 130 - 77 lumen in 24 minutes

    Body Option:
    Streamlight TL-2 ++

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x14500

    Bulb Option:
    TL-3 Bulb: 9.5W, 130 - 77 lumen in 24 minutes

    Body:
    2AA MiniMag with Auroralite upgrade package +++

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cell configuration: 2x14500

    Bulb Options:
    almost any "5 or 6 cell" PR based bulb: varies
    too many bulb options to list, try some 5 and 6 cell mag xenonstar, hit up radio-shack for tons of PR based bulbs, many in the 4.8V-6V rated range will work in these applications.

    Body:
    almost any 2AA flashlight that takes ordinary PR based bulbs can be converted into a true "torch" with this method. +-+++ depends.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    WHEW! that's a lot of options.... that'll keep us busy for a few minutes eh?
    Last edited by mdocod; 12-05-2008 at 09:33 PM. Reason: updates!lol

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    this is one of the finest threads ive seen in a long time.
    Good Job!!!
    Last edited by abinok; 04-15-2007 at 09:29 PM. Reason: spelling

  4. #4
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Stick this stuff ASAP!!

    Thanks a lot for the huge amount of work you've done here Mdocod. I wish there was something like this guide when I joined CPF...


  5. #5
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    mdocod...even though you don't think I listen to what you say, since I am the one who ran the LF EO-13 off 3 RCR123 batteries. I actually switched over to running 18500's and 18650's.
    Keep up the GREAT work!!!!!!

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* Glen C's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Mdocod, congratulations on a fine body of work, great reference for any incan user.

  7. #7
    Flashaholic* Outdoors Fanatic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Mdocod, just one more question (you may add it to your guide):

    Is it safe to run the Lumens Factory D36 E0-9L on 2X18500 li-ions? If so, what's the expected runtime? I think the D36 9L series have different specifications/requirements from the D26 9V series, but they are not mentioned in your guide.
    Thanks in advance.

  8. #8
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Thanks for all the kind words thus far...

    Outdoors Fanatic: I included a section discussing some more common turbo style bulbs, their power consumption, minimum cell size, runtime, etc...


    If there are any more bulbs I should include, please, by all means, let me know. If you see any major errors please correct me, as I slapped the chart together pretty quick. Keep in mind that my wattage/runtime ratings are educated estimates and should not be taken as gospel. Use as a ballpark guide. I usually try to low-ball runtime estimates, rounding down to the nearest 5 min increment.

    [edit] full compatibility chart is up, enjoy!
    Last edited by mdocod; 04-18-2007 at 04:33 PM.

  9. #9
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Silverfox contacted me by PM, I have made some changes to the section about Li-Ion safety concerns as a result of his very knowledgeable contribution. (voltage limits during charging, most specifically).

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Hello Mdocod,

    Looking good!!!

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  11. #11
    Flashaholic zehnmm's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Mdocod: THANKS and WOW! Great job!


  12. #12
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

    Ok, I gave the guide a face lift today, added links, fixed links, added some formatting to make it easier to read. added more information and more sections.
    Last edited by mdocod; 04-16-2007 at 07:27 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    I just want to say 'thank-you' for doing this for us. Very helpful, indeed.

    Frank

  14. #14
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    I've been poking at this some more...

    added a more explanatory section on body>cell compatibility. Also just touched up areas to read smoother, more random info placed throughout...funfunfun

    If anyone can think of ANY information you would like to see in this guide, I would really like to include it. Any suggestions about the organization, I have never been very good at organizing a large body of text into anything meaningful, so if the layout doesn't seem smooth, please help me make it better. I have a habbit of not keeping in the same "tense" when writing, sometimes talking "me" sometimes "if" sometimes "you," bleh.. The fact that a lot of this is copied from other threads makes it even harder to integrate into a meaningful lump, lol.

    If there are any other brands that I should represent, please let me know. If there are any other links about Lithium safety that I haven't yet included, I'd like to include them. If there are any dealers, or manufactures that I should have represented as a part of this scene, let me know, throw me a link.

    I am considering maybe a detailed section about the Wolf-Eyes lego that Paul_In_Maryland has discussed in many threads in more detail. I'd also like to cover the Leaf bodies and SF heads/tailcap lego that can be done. I know most of the compatibility there, I'll just need to take the time to write it all down and organize it... would anyone like to see that information included here? [edit in: compatibility chart is up!]

    We had a nice chart on the WIKI awhile back, as far as I know it is long gone, if anyone has this, and could post it, and get it going again, that would be awesome, or if yall would like me to build and maintain something similar within this guide, I'd be happy to do that as well.
    Last edited by mdocod; 04-18-2007 at 04:36 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    mdocod,
    Great guide! This should be a sticky!

    I'm all about the bright lights! I'm currently looking to buy: Nothing!...but you all know how that goes..
    A lot of companies make good flashlights but CPF makes those flashlights great!

  16. #16
    Flashaholic jezzyp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    Awesome post
    We call them torches here in England...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    GOOD job!
    A valuable piece of work. Thanks for the effort.
    Kind Regards

    David

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    mdocod,

    I am now using your table as a bible of lamps for future reference.

    I have a question.....can you guesstimate the wattage and run times for;

    LF D26 HO-9 with 2x 18650 AW cells
    LF D26 EO-9 with 2x 18650 AW cells

    Thanks in advance...

  19. #19
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    thanks for the flow of kind words everyone!

    cernobila:
    HO-9 >18650s = ~12.5W, ~75min
    EO-9 >18650s = ~15.5W, ~60min

    my usual disclaimer is that this is a ballpark figure.

    In my experience, the EO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than an HO-9 in use, and an HO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than a G90/P90 type lamp in actual use.(even though there it is a decent step in oomf, eyes play tricks on us) anything above 10W pushing ~25 lumen/w at the bulb does a great job outdoors for most tasks.

  20. #20
    Flashaholic* KeeperSD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    mdocod



    Much to learn from this thread and much to try, plenty of information, only problem is that there will no longer be as many threads on these topics for me to look through and spend endless hours reading.
    Last edited by KeeperSD; 04-18-2007 at 05:46 AM.
    There's no truth in the news and no news in the truth

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod
    thanks for the flow of kind words everyone!

    cernobila:
    HO-9 >18650s = ~12.5W, ~75min
    EO-9 >18650s = ~15.5W, ~60min

    my usual disclaimer is that this is a ballpark figure.

    In my experience, the EO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than an HO-9 in use, and an HO-9 doesn't seem all that much brighter than a G90/P90 type lamp in actual use.(even though there it is a decent step in oomf, eyes play tricks on us) anything above 10W pushing ~25 lumen/w at the bulb does a great job outdoors for most tasks.
    Thanks for that, much appreciated, I think I will go with the HO-9 for the extra run time when out camping......

  22. #22
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mdocod's Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide

    I just added a D26 compatibility chart.

    Hopefully I'll have the motivation to do a turbo-head chart, with all the Leaf/SF and WE combinations available. My typing is burning out, lol..[edit in] Turbohead configuration chart added!!!! But still probably needs a lot of work. Need input, lol.
    Last edited by mdocod; 04-18-2007 at 02:09 PM.

  23. #23
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    WOW! I made a couple comments in that other thread about this guide. Thanks again.

  24. #24
    Flashaholic benighted's Avatar
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    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    Wow! Nice guide. I wish I had this to refer to when I was getting started with Li-ions. This thread should be made sticky

  25. #25
    Flashaholic alantch's Avatar
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    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    I'm just getting into turbo heads, incan bulbs and li-ions and find this guide the absolute best, especially on the different battery combinations, bulbs and runtimes. Fantastic writeup mdocod! This should be sticky.

  26. #26
    *Flashaholic* mdocod's Avatar
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    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    I hurt my back some terrible about 2 weeks ago, so I've continued to pick at this guide lately, adding things, changing things... I've got way too much free time, I can't lift anything, so I can't work.

    As it is right now, I wouldn't consider the turbo head section really all that well and done, I need some of our experienced members in this area to give a hand here. Especially about the compatibility of some of the G&P parts with SF parts. If someone experienced with these configurations could review and pick out errors (I'm sure here are errors) or think of anything to add, I would really appreciate it.

    I'm *thinking* about going through an putting a *confirmed* tag next to configurations that someone says they actually have working, or know for sure would work, and leaving other configurations "unconfirmed" or "experimental" or something, does this sound like a good idea?

  27. #27
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod
    I'm *thinking* about going through an putting a *confirmed* tag next to configurations that someone says they actually have working, or know for sure would work, and leaving other configurations "unconfirmed" or "experimental" or something, does this sound like a good idea?
    Absolutely! Always good to know what is confirmed vs. theoretical. Thanks again for all this.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    Mdocod, that is terrific work! It will be invaluable source material for people trying to work through the maze of sizes, specifications etc. Now we will know exactly where to tell people where to look for answers!
    Resistance is futile...

  29. #29
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    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    I've got to pile on here, this thread is FANTASTIC! Thank you so much for the time and effort. I've been pondering rechargeable solutions for so long, the different combinations are mind boggling. This is an excellent resource.
    Dean Venture: "I'll get the flashlights!"
    Hank Venture: "And I'll get the astronaut Ice Cream!"

  30. #30

    Default Re: MDs Lithium-Ion>Incandecent guide, +compatability/comparison chart

    Here's another set of options:

    2x17670

    bodies:
    surefire m3 + 1cell extender, with MN10 or MN11 (confirmed)
    surefire m3t/m3 with kt4 + 1 cell extender, with MN15 or MN16
    surefire m4 with MN15 or MN16

    i'll leave the lumen/runtime rating to you

    2x17500 surefire m3 with MN10 is also confirmed.
    MN11 needs double tap on 17500's so this shouldn't be considered safe.

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