WL vs Leadlight

In introducing the new 5mw Core, Wicked Lasers took the opportunity to bash LeadLight, who is presumably their main competitor for the "legal" market.

I'm just wondering what really happened with WL's sale of at-cost-LeadLights last year, which apparently started this whole thing. All parties agree the lasers sold were largely defective. But WL claims LL (Leadlight) has poor QC and refused to service the lasers while Leadlight claimed (to individual customers, never saw a direct response from them on the issue) that WL never purchased from LL, and was in fact selling fake LeadLights.

Obviously someone is lying and someone is telling the truth - but who? LeadLight seems to enjoy a great reputation and has as long as I've had an interest in lasers. WL has had many problems but also has a legion of followers as well.

With our shared affinity for candlepower, CPF seems like the perfect place for someone to "shed light" on this issue.

My take on it is; Wicked is known and has built their reputation and business on the sale of higher-powered units, which is almost totally realized by "binning" stock pointers and selecting the more efficient ones for sale as 15mW, 30mW, 50mW, etc. Anyone familiar with this practice knows that it's like a pyramid scheme, few benefit and many suffer.

No Class IIIa legal "5mW" pointer design is optimized for a high yield of top-efficiency / 50+mW units; production cost is Number One - so once the best ones are culled from a given production lot, the rest are low efficiency units - and these are not suitable for modification. As the binning process goes "deeper" into the efficiency distribution, the better pointers are removed and all that is left are the low end (but fine as legal) units.

Selling these low end units at cost may seem to be a charitable effort, or be construed as a "fire sale", with angst attached - but is certain that all the good ones more than paid for the fallout. Selling this concentrated lot of fallout units at all is not an honorable business practice, IMO.

Who gets all the better LLs? Probably not Wicked, since they apparently don't have the best relationship with LL. I'm guessing some other fellow, who shall remain nameless, by virtue of careful relationship-building, gets the lion's share of binned units. Some may slip by in the heat of battle (shipment deadlines etc.) to other distributors, but I know where I would send my money for a high efficiency unit...

I'm guessing Wicked bought a heap of LLs (indirectly or under another name), hoping for a good yield of high output units, got few to nothing above legal output power, and applied some attitude in their Clever Marketing crusade.

Just my conjecture, opinion, and educated guesses...and no I don't think much of Wicked

You might be interested in reading this.

http://www.laserpointerforums.com/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1170486863/0

PS: to moderator, I'm very sorry if putting links to other forums is forbidden. Just delete my post if this is true.

VaThInK said:

You might be interested in reading this.

http://www.laserpointerforums.com/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1170486863/0

PS: to moderator, I'm very sorry if putting links to other forums is forbidden. Just delete my post if this is true.

Click to expand...

oo:oo:oo:

I am shocked an dappauled (by "steve" not by your posting hte link, vaathing)

I think I'll be looking elsewhere for my lasers... make me wonder about the quality of their otehr products as well, such as wheather those safety goggles are really any good.....

EDIT: no less appauled but less suprised, it seems, from what Iv'e seen, that forum is owned byDragonlasers, a direct compeditor of WL, so a lot of badmouthing goes on there (this from another site, neither LPF, LC, or CPF)

and on the optehr side of the coin, I really cant complain too much about WL, other than some errors in processing, everything was great and I'm very happy with my pulsar...

This is a sad thread to read about on CPF. This is, after all a very good place to garner information and to share experiences but it;s always the same two or three people trying to cause the same problems for the same laser suppliers.

The aggressors writing and the posters reposting this material are known for their 'Wicked Lasers bashing' threads. I've heard these stories years ago and it's interesting that the same competitors are still trying to chip away at WL.

The people involved here in bad-mouthing have all been banned previously from several laser forums for unwarranted and unsubstantiated slanderous comments. Some of the comments are outrageous lies designed to harm others. Others are mixed with half-truths. Other comments are the result of being banned from the WL forums for racially motivated attacks towards other members there and for constant forum rule posting violations.

I don't work for WL. I never have and I've never sold a WL myself. I've never utilized any benefits from referral either and volunteer my photographs of any of their products in action and even my time as an occasional moderator. Prior to this post on CPF today, I have just earlier commented positively on another laser seller's new product and also recommended a laser from another manufacturer which I happened to obtain recently so I'm not advocating 'favorites' today. I have an exceptional reputation in my field of work as a Film Designer which extends internationally across ALL the major production studios... and, as a result, I will ALWAYS be happy to endorse a product which pleases me, meets my expectations or might be useful to my peers. I will also be pleased to endorse a product which is supported by exceptional customer service. A Wicked Laser was used to generate the opening shot textures for Happy Feet for example which assisted in our win for and Oscar for Best Animated Film for 2007. I've handled and photographed dozens of their products and have spoken to MANY other users who are likewise very happy with the product and services.

I discovered WL whilst researching lasers here on CPF some years ago on this very forum. I have never seen WL commit any act of unfair behavior towards a consumer. I HAVE seen consumers try to scam WL. I have also witnessed people involved in threads like this one try to damage WL's reputation for their own ends. This includes other laser sellers posing as potential buyers, 'shills' and (worst of all) people who have been shamed by their past behavior who try to damage reputations. Good old "Jellyfish" has argued legalities with me in an attempt to prove WL is 'guilty of misrepresentation' as far back as 2004/5 without success.

If I ever see genuine cause for concern with Wicked Lasers, i'll be the first to bring it to everyone's attention. In my own dealings with them, they've been extremely honest to their word with me over many years. Steve in particular has never failed to impress me which his attention to detail and generous & honest nature and his reputation amongst others has always been one of respect. Sure, I may only see one aspect of his personality but he was honest & helpful BEFORE I purchased from him for the first time.

I have been severely disappointed by other Laser sellers around the globe though and will mention this from time to time in relevant conversations. If anyone feels I am wrong or misinformed, feel free to contact me with relevant details outside of this thread/forum and I will take what they say into account. In the mean time, WL have done a lot of good with innovative pricing, designs and services so I'm going to stand by my comments until someone can PROVE otherwise.

I draw attention to the most important quote from the off-forum posting that triggered this latest thread: "This information comes entirely from a few minutes of internet searching and a couple emails with Leadlight." (are you serious?) That should sum up the validity of this topic entirely. I might mention that I too did a VAST internet search before buying from Wicked for the first time because I didn't like the idea of sending hundreds of dollars offshore via an internet purchase. They were almost the only company at the time without a bad strike against their name. Let's try to keep complaints and feedback on sellers as unbiased as possible which will allow for much better information exchange here at CPF. Jellyfish, your opinions have been stated years ago... so your "Oh so innocent" posting comes across clearly to those of us who remember you as nothing other than Flamebaiting. This post is valuable though as I get an opportunity to point out why these sort of stories and conjecture originate. I also followed the supplied links to Leadlight and found that they did NOT identify anyone specifically on eBay for statements concerning their products. Further to this, they tell me they do NOT have any related concerns in relation to WL and their products.


Regards,

Marco Nero
Senior Film Designer
Fox Studios Australia

PS, My first Leadlight was purchased from ThinkGeek.com and was quite the defective dud. Which makes it a 100% defective/failure-rate for me if you take my singular purchase into account. I pot-modded it after visiting CPF and it now still outputs <42mW albeit with a little instability. I think we can all agree though that Leadlight has inspired most laserists here in CPF at one time or another. But the defect-ratio of DPSS lasers has always remained higher than red solid state direct-diode lasers and every seller has experienced this from time to time. I'm happy with leadlight and their products myself. But my expectations are realistic as well. Fortunately for submitter, I have no axe to grind.

Marco,

For such an internationally acclaimed mega-stud, you can't read worth a darn. I didn't post any links to start this thread; I merely posed a question. Two companies are saying something completely opposite. One has to be lying. Even Wicked Lasers admits Leadlight denies selling to them. You must not be able to read their site either. Also, I'm sure others recall, several CPF members posted direct correspondance with Leadlight in which LL denied selling to WL.

I've never been banned from any forum. Nor have I ever attacked anyone racially. How dare you make such an idiotic accusation.

We have argued in the past regarding the legalityof Wicked's products. Clearly WL's over 5mw lasers are not legal in the USA, as evidenced by their record with the FDA. I'm fine with people buying/selling illegal product, but they should be honest with one another. I'm not fine with Wicked misleading them into believing they are legal. IMO, this is immoral behavior.

Marco, your artwork is great but you have a screw-loose somewhere. You simply choose to believe what you want without any sort of supporting reason or logic. You cannot be argued with because you have no ability to comprehend what the other person is saying without making up lies as (such as calling me a scammer or a racist) as the basis of your response. That WL sells illegal products is undeniable. For one, they moved to China because of this and for two, just search the FDA website for Wicked Lasers to find numerous confiscations, citations and warning letters.

It is unfortunate that this thread has been hijacked by Marco and the other fellow who posted the thread from another forum. I'm sure this thread will be deleted now by the mods without discussing the important issue I brought up.

Two well-known and well-respected laser companies are accusing each other of lying. I for one would like to know who!

nero_design & jellyfish414: Please calm down. It wasn't my intention at all to offend anybody. I said that maybe any of you might be interested in reading the link that I've posted. I was just merely giving some information to consider. Not judging that LL or WL is the black sheep. I believe you have misunderstood my intention. Please again think twice before you act. I am interested myself in knowing the truth in regards to this matter as well.

Please correct me if I did anything wrong.

Peace all.