Eneloops - reduced capacity...

Sanyo Eneloop is that new low-discharge technology, but it's rated at only 2,000 mAh. However Sanyo or Maha Powerex are both rated at 2700 mAh, or 30% higher - and it takes a long time for them to discharge 30% to the level of Eneloop. A month maybe, or more.

For heavy duty equipment, cameras, flashlights, radios, the higher amps cells win, unless you need to store them for a long time.

I've used both and the only difference is that Eneloop cuts out sooner than others at higher amps.

Until Eneloop comes out with a similar capacity, it's not a real competitor with dominant cells.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Hi there etc,

You bring up some good points, however the bottom line is that it depends
on how you use your cells. If you use your cells right after charging or
within a few weeks and you use them for a long period of time then
the higher capacity cells might be better as you say because you will
use all the capacity right then and there. Using Eneloops in this way
will mean less run time.
On the other hand, if you use your device for short periods of time over
long periods of time (like a minute or two per day over several months)
then the Eneloops (or clones) are the way to go for sure.

I happen to use most of my cells like the latter, where i run something for
short periods of time or may not even use something for a week or two,
and when i pick it up a month or two later i want some decent capacity
left, even if it's not 2500mAh. The Eneloops work out very well for me
(although i use the Kodak clones instead). I can use something for a
few minutes and put it down, then three or four months later pick it
up again and not have to recharge the cells before i use it again.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

I originally thought the same thing too. But, I have found that some of the higher capacity cells a) do not charge all the way to their stated capacity; and 2) cannot handle higher amperage requirements, such as 5 amps, without severe voltage sag.

For my usage, I am running an Osram 50W 64610 bulb in a Mag hotwire. I use 12 Eneloop AA's to get runtimes of about 22 min. in a 1300 torch lumen scorcher.

While I have not tried Sanyos and Mahas, I have not experienced, so far, what you stated about the Eneloops cutting out sooner than others. In fact, my experience is the opposite: At current draw of an estimated 4.35 amps for my 50W light, the Eneloops are holding up as good or better than my CBP1650's so far.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

I've found that with eneloop we have to charge the batteries in our camera every 3-4 months. With higher capacity we had to charge them every month. So even though the capacity is higher they don't last as long, therefore they are good for more than just storage.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

I haven't given Hybrids the acid (GPSr) test yet, but I will tell you why I want to.

Early on, E2500 held voltage well. I charged at least 5 pairs of batteries on the weekend. Then I use one pair a day all week. Now it's getting sketchy whether my GPSr will run all day (as it did just fine some months ago).

Two of my Hotwire lights hold charge WAY longer than they used to, thanks to Hybrids.

So I still intend to get more and give 'em the GPSr test!

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

I don't think Sanyo meant for the eneloops to compete with higher capacity batteries. Rather, to compete with alkaline batteries. I don't have anything that requires a higher capacity battery than the eneloop AA's and AAA's, so I ordered a bunch of them to replace my aging GP 2300's, and aging AAA's. I did order a fresh set of Sanyo 2700ma batteries in case I need them for something in the future.

Personally I hate alkaline batteries. I seem to have bad luck with them leaking and I don't plan on buying them anymore except for C and D sizes only. I rarely need C and D size batteries.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

I got a few packs of Eneloops a while ago to test them out. I put one pack in a digital camera because I use it so rarely. It seems to work best this way. But if I expected some heavy duty usage, I would take more serious cells as a backup.

In MiniMag 3AA, the Powerex 2700 mAh is a clear winner in terms of run time for devices like LED flashlights which run for 3-4 hours and then quit, unlike alarm clocks. Same thing in a GPS device. Same thing in a scanner radio. None of them draw that high an amperage.

There was a test in the "Headlamps" forum about Princeton Tec Apex and there was about 1 hour difference between 2,000 mAh and 2,700 mAh. 4 hours vs. 3 hours.

I tried putting one Eneloop in an alarm clock but then decided that an alkaline might be better for it anyway, so I can use the Eneloop in devices that prefer NiMH.

One aspect where the Eneloop *might* be of an advantage is if takes more cycles than higher rated NiMH. I hear that the higher the capacity, the fewer cycles a cell gets. If the Eneloops get substantially more cycles than Maha Powerex, then they are truly worth it.

Also, Maha Powerex is surprisingly slow discharging. I measured cells that have been sitting for a while and I never got a difference I could quantify.

I am sure they will up the capacity soon, this year, making 2,00 mAh obsolete.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

To me the big appeal of Eneloops, Hybrios, etc is that they don't require all the care and attention of regular NiMH. For sure if you are always running batteries down within a week or so, you are better off with 2700 mAH Powerex or whatever.

An example is my handheld scanner which uses 3xAA. Typically used a lot for a while then not used for a few weeks. I never seem to remember to care for the batteries when not in use. The ~year old GP 2300 mAH batteries that came with are already down to ~1600 mAH and are pretty much worn out even though they have <10 cycles on them. I replaced them with Hybrio's and so far they are holding up very well.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

etc said:

I got a few packs of Eneloops a while ago to test them out. I put one pack in a digital camera because I use it so rarely. It seems to work best this way. But if I expected some heavy duty usage, I would take more serious cells as a backup.

In MiniMag 3AA, the Powerex 2700 mAh is a clear winner in terms of run time for devices like LED flashlights which run for 3-4 hours and then quit, unlike alarm clocks. Same thing in a GPS device. Same thing in a scanner radio. None of them draw that high an amperage.

There was a test in the "Headlamps" forum about Princeton Tec Apex and there was about 1 hour difference between 2,000 mAh and 2,700 mAh. 4 hours vs. 3 hours.

I tried putting one Eneloop in an alarm clock but then decided that an alkaline might be better for it anyway, so I can use the Eneloop in devices that prefer NiMH.

One aspect where the Eneloop *might* be of an advantage is if takes more cycles than higher rated NiMH. I hear that the higher the capacity, the fewer cycles a cell gets. If the Eneloops get substantially more cycles than Maha Powerex, then they are truly worth it.

Also, Maha Powerex is surprisingly slow discharging. I measured cells that have been sitting for a while and I never got a difference I could quantify.

I am sure they will up the capacity soon, this year, making 2,00 mAh obsolete.

Click to expand...

Not sure I agree - for these reasons:

1. Eneloops are a true 2000mah (or very close) - many other batteries I have tested are significantly off-spec. This seems especially true with some 2700mah batteries (many of which are nearer 2300-2500mah actual). The exception I found is Sanyo's own 2700mah. So 'freshly charged' some may only have 15-25% more capacity than Eneloops.

2. Eneloops lose very little to self discharge - typically 15% a year compared to some NiMH which lose about 10% in the first day and certainly 15% (or a lot more) in a few weeks to a month.

Basically if you are charging the batteries and using them right away go with high capacity NiMH (like the Sanyo 2700mah) but if you are not then the Eneloops may be better as the 'normal' NiMH will have discharged to the same capacity after a matter of days or a week etc.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Eneloops also work in very low drain applications that would not be appropriate for normal rechargeables.

Consider wall clocks, thermometers, etc.

I also have many infrequently used devices aroun d the house that I don't want to keep alkalines in, but I also don't want to keep changing batteries every time I want to use them. A labelmaker, portable radio, etc.

For these applications, eneloops rock!

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

I'd have to disagree. I have some 2600mah cells and in my digital camera they are worthless in about a week and that's using them on/off. The eneloops keep going and going and going in my camera. Same with my flashlights that use AA. My C cell flashlights I keep charged regularly though because I need the high capacity for them.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Basically the only place for higher capacity NiMH are specifically where that higher capacity is instantly required (i.e. within a matter of days or a week of charging).

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Oh well. I just got myself some Duracell 2650 mAh and some Sony 2500 mAh to use on some very frequently used lights - full discharge in a 24 hour period.

I also got some Eneloops and Hybrids for those lights that may be needed 1 or more months from the last recharge.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Eneloops essentially have provided us with a rechargeable alternative to lithium AAs. Before, we often used lithiums because of the drawbacks of other chemistries; i.e., alkaline voltage sag and leakiness, and NiMH self-discharge. Eneloops, at 1.2v, will also run in some devices that cannot handle 1.7v lithium batteries. Realize that only a few years ago, the best NiMHs we had were equal in capacity to Eneloops, but would be dead in a month. I've read that there is some evidence to suggest that the self-discharge rate of Eneloops even decreases over time. The reduced capacity of Eneloops does not bother me one bit, and it's only a matter of time before it increases as well.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Dare I say it, I like Eneloops simply because they perform as they are claimed to perform. The capacity is a real capacity (indeed, in my last test a set of 4 got an average 2106mAh), unlike high capacity cells which might meet their theoretical capacity hot off the charger but in practice don't like sitting for long at all and never quite live up to expectation. Eneloops' voltage sag under heavy loads has also been observed to be less than other cells.

Basically, Eneloops work as I expect a rechargeable battery to work.

The 2000mAh cells will certainly not become obsolete when 2100mAh or greater Eneloops come out. (Apparently I have some already.) Do you really think a 5% difference in capacity would render the older cells obsolete? (What would you do, recycle them?) Unlike other NiMH cells, I expect first generation Eneloops will still have almost all their capacity after hundreds of cycles, unlike (most?) higher capacity cells which I expect to lose significant capacity after just a few hundred cycles - another example of not living up to expectation. Eneloops are most certainly a strong competitor to higher capacities.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Eugene said:

I've found that with eneloop we have to charge the batteries in our camera every 3-4 months. With higher capacity we had to charge them every month. So even though the capacity is higher they don't last as long, therefore they are good for more than just storage.

Click to expand...

I found the exact same thing. I love the Eneloops/ROV Hybrids/Titanium Power Enduro cells (all low self-discharge). I finally feel that rechargeables are worth using. I would commonly charge up high capacity NiMH cells, use them a little and find them dead a month later...

The only time I've seen the LS-D cells at a disadvantage to regular NiMH, is when the regular ones are used right off the charger. Even unused, I commonly had 2600 mAh Energizers with a full charge come up dead in a couple of weeks while the LS-D cells still have a full charge.

Doug P.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Quickbeam said:

I found the exact same thing. I love the Eneloops/ROV Hybrids/Titanium Power Enduro cells (all low self-discharge).
Doug P.

Click to expand...

I agree with all of Doug's post.
Norm

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

My big beef with the 2500+ mAh cells was the high failure rate of some percentage of the cells after a few months. Their self-discharge rates went sky high, and charging cutoff became hit or miss. I haven't had this problem with the Eneloops or ROV Hybrid LSD cells.

I have noticed that the ROV Hybrid cells do operate at a slightly lower voltage than standard NiMh cells, and this fools the battery meters in some electronic devies. I don't have a feel for how the Eneloops do in this regard.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

Besides what's been already said, another reason I like Eneloops is unlike a lot of NiMH it is thin enough to fit in my narrow Ultrafire C3 battery tube.

Re: Eneloop AA are not that good due to reduced capacity

i recently got into the rechargeable battery arena... and personally wouldnt buy anything but a hybrid style battery... anything battery powered that i use isn't really a high drain device, i actually got a set of 2700mAh sanyo's by accident from TD and have no idea what i should put them into, other than maybe my keyboard... which definitely isn't a high drain device... and already has a set of rechargables that came out of my mouse

here's a list of what i am using the eneloop AA and AAA for
8 AA- canon s3 is
2 AAA- fenix lod-ce's
2 AAA- remotes for my trucks alarm
4 AA- batteries for computer mice
1 AAA- spare for my lod-ce while at work

3 AAA-spares for when i find something else i need them for
4 AA -spares for same reason

the camera see's off and on use... i don't want to have to worry about the batteries being charged when i do decide to use it... or worrying if the spares are ready to go... it uses 4 AA's and i have 4 more for spares.... plus i get about 1000 non flash shots on a set of AA eneloops... where i was gettin about 400 on primary AA's... yuck

for me.... hybrids are perfect for what i need... sure i could use some more mAh... but that will come with time