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Thread: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

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    * The Arctic Moderator * Sigman's Avatar
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    Default Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    ...continued from here.
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hello,
    Well, I finally purchased a C9000 and have searched the other thread and cannot find anything on this problem I'm having. When I put AAA's in the charger they "kinda" pop back out. Must be something I am doing. I know I read something about this somewhere but cannot find anything. Anyone else have this happen to them? What am I doing wrong? Doug
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Are you inserting them negative end first? AA's are inserted positive end first and AAA's negative end first.

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by dtsoll View Post
    Hello,
    Well, I finally purchased a C9000 and have searched the other thread and cannot find anything on this problem I'm having. When I put AAA's in the charger they "kinda" pop back out. Must be something I am doing. I know I read something about this somewhere but cannot find anything. Anyone else have this happen to them? What am I doing wrong? Doug
    You're definitely not alone there.

    Although it definitely helps to put the negative end of AAA cells in first, it isn't the solution to the problem. Slot 2 on my 0G0B01 chargers are pretty bad for this, although I've also had the problem in other slots as well. My earlier 0FAB02 charger doesn't have this problem at all.

    I think the problem is either to do with the moulding of the plastic shell, or the location of the negative probe itself - the negative ends of the cells are tending to sit either on the ramp (and won't hold in at all) or they're sitting right on the edge and prone to pop out - usually after only a second or so if not straight away, but also sometimes after a while.

    Generally, you can persevere until they stay in, but it is a pain...
    Firmware Developer for the UltraSmartCharger: Open Source Charger/Analyzer for NiMH/NiCad/NiZn batteries.
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    I've had an AAA cell or two pop out several times recently on just one particular slot, but never until the last few days. I'm not sure if it's the slot or the plastic wrapper on the cell being just slightly scrunched around the negative end at one point. But that shouldn't be enough to do it. Bad design I guess.
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hi all, noooobie to CPF here. Thanks for all the info.

    I am thinking of buying a C9000 and have read a lot of the posts here as well as downloading the 2-page instruction sheet. I have some further Q's that you helpful people may be able to assist with:

    I want to run it in my car sometimes. Can I use a simple cigarette lighter cable that I can make for a couple of dollars, or is some sort of voltage regulator required in the adaptor? When the engine is running, the car's voltage will be more like 14V. I can't see car adaptors sold separately on the Australian distributor's site (http://servaas.com.au), though the Maha C401FS comes bundled with one.

    Speaking of the C401FS - *if* I don't care about the info that the C9000's display gives me, would the C401FS perform any worse than the 9000 for basic charging, battery longevity, etc? I haven't decided how battery geeky I want to be yet, i.e. whether I want break-in etc. (No offence intended - I'll probably go geeky!) The 401's smaller size is appealing.

    I gather that if I want non-default charging rates, I need to program these for each cell, and every time I charge. Is this correct? I will probably use the 1A default most of the time as that seems reasonable, unless I need to charge in a hurry.

    Using Eneloops or ordinary NiMHs, does fast charging (e.g. using a cheaper 1 hour "fast charger") reduce long term battery life? There is so much conflicting info on batteries. Is the occasional charge at 2000mA in the C9000 going to hurt my 2000mAh Eneloops (i.e. 1.0 C)?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by the_snark; 09-18-2007 at 11:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_snark View Post
    Hi all, noooobie to CPF here.


    No offence, but, um, how do we know you're not a boojum?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_snark View Post
    I want to run it in my car sometimes. Can I use a simple cigarette lighter cable that I can make for a couple of dollars, or is some sort of voltage regulator required in the adaptor?
    Good question. I've got a 12V adaptor with lots of different plugs and voltage settings but it says it's only 800mA. Would it still work on slow charges?

    Quote Originally Posted by the_snark View Post
    Using Eneloops or ordinary NiMHs, does fast charging (e.g. using a cheaper 1 hour "fast charger") reduce long term battery life?
    Not so you'd notice with better chargers. With cheap chargers that don't terminate at the right time, quite possibly.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_snark View Post
    Is the occasional charge at 2000mA in the C9000 going to hurt my 2000mAh Eneloops (i.e. 1.0 C)?
    No. The C9000 is a good charger, and SilverFox even recommends fast rates like that. Allow time for the 2 hours of top-up charge if you want them fully charged though.
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    Christo Pull Hair Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by dtsoll View Post
    Hello,
    Well, I finally purchased a C9000 and have searched the other thread and cannot find anything on this problem I'm having. When I put AAA's in the charger they "kinda" pop back out. Must be something I am doing.
    As a follow up on what I've already said:

    I just bought some Uniross Hybrio AAA cells and I've found that the newer revision C9000s that I've got don't detect the cells even if they do stay in the slot without popping out. The older unit is testing them just fine though. (Actually I did get one cell to detect in one slot of one of the chargers, but it didn't work very well and stopped discharging after only a few minutes)

    I'd say that this is because the Hybrios have their wrapper coming a bit further around the corner on the negative terminal and the newer chargers are only making contact right on the edge - the negative terminals on the Eneloops are exposed all the way to the edge, so they still work OK in the newer C9000s.

    I wonder if they've fixed this problem in the even more recent C9000s?
    Firmware Developer for the UltraSmartCharger: Open Source Charger/Analyzer for NiMH/NiCad/NiZn batteries.
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hello Power Me Up,

    I seem to remember something about a slight "tweak" of the AAA contacts on the "improved" units. I just checked a small variety of AAA cells that I have with a newer C-9000 and there were no issues at all.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Hello Power Me Up,

    I seem to remember something about a slight "tweak" of the AAA contacts on the "improved" units. I just checked a small variety of AAA cells that I have with a newer C-9000 and there were no issues at all.
    Which "improved" version are you talking about? I've got the 0G0B01 versions as my newer units...
    Firmware Developer for the UltraSmartCharger: Open Source Charger/Analyzer for NiMH/NiCad/NiZn batteries.
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    I have the same problem on bay 3. AAA just pops out. The other 3 bays are fine.
    I have tried different ways of inserting and had a close look at the terminals but can't see anything wrong.

    I have emailed Nevada Radio here in the UK where I bought it to arrange a awap as its only 6 months old.
    We call them torches here in England...

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hello Power Me Up,

    My newest unit is a 0G0E01.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    My newest unit is a 0G0E01.
    Just out of curiosity, how many C9000s do you have?
    Firmware Developer for the UltraSmartCharger: Open Source Charger/Analyzer for NiMH/NiCad/NiZn batteries.
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hello Power Me Up,

    I currently have 2.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Mine is fine with some eneloops I've just bought. I had some jumping problems with some Maplin AAA's (a shop to avoid if possible) but it was OK if re-inserted firmly and carefully.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    My 0G0D01 hasn't had any problems with AAA's, nor did my earlier 0FAB02, once I learned to insert them negative end first.
    Ray
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    I just noticed this newer Part2 thread, so I am re-posting because I am curious to see any feedback on my thoughts on the unit so far (I just got it a few days ago..)


    I recently received my C9000 (0G0B01 revision) from ThomasDist and absolutely love it!!
    I thought I would share my idea for a "best of both worlds" charging technique... I start with discharged cells (~2yr old 2000 mah AA for my first test), charge them @ 1C (2 A) with a cooling fan, let them sit for ~30 minutes for topoff charge, cool for a few minutes, then charge them again at 0.2C (400 ma). The reason I like this method is that it can be fairly quick, but also gets them very full. I tested this first charge test by letting them cool a few minutes and then discharging them at 400 ma and 3 of the cells discharged ~97% rated capacity! The last one just isnt done yet and I needed to use the charger for my next set, so I took it out, but it looked like it was tracking towards the same good result.
    I have always seen the drawback to fast (1C) charging was that the cells would just not get full, even if the peak detection work perfectly. So, that is why I like the 1C, followed by 0.2C approach. If I recall correctly, the 1C charges input ~1900 mah and the 0.2C charges put in another 350 mah...
    My background is in RC cars for several years. My general thoughts on nimh charging are that peak detection charging is definitely a precision business and having trustworthy equipment is a must, like this unit. I think slow (0.1C) non-peak detectection will generally lead to longer runtime and overall life, but, it is no where near as fun or as precise as peak detection... The higher the charge rate in peak detection, the higher the voltage will be under load, and the charging process will be faster, but properly detecting the peak is more important. When charging my 2000 mah cells in this unit at both 1C and 0.2C, I feel like it was doing a great job detecting the peak, and not significantly overcharging...
    I now, have 4 of my new 2850 mah Ansmann cells in for a break in cycle at 270 ma and I plan to pull them out after ~16 hrs. I discharged them 1A and then again at 0.4A to get them totally empty.

    I am very passionate about my batteries...now, I just need to create some plastic dowel adapters, so I can charge my 4200mah subC monster truck cells, too bad it has 14 cells and I could really use (3) more C9000s...

    Take care guys and thanks for the great thread on this machine!

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    to SilverFox --


    Just received my Maha C9000 charger today, from Thomas Dist.


    My date-code is 0G0D01.


    Should i be concerned / upset about this ?


    Thank you for any info.



    _

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgess View Post
    to SilverFox --


    Just received my Maha C9000 charger today, from Thomas Dist.


    My date-code is 0G0D01.


    Should i be concerned / upset about this ?
    I received my C9000 last week and it also is a 0G0D01. I would have thought Thomas Distributing to have the latest versions of these chargers considering they're probably one of the top places selling them. I'd still love to know the differences between each version # myself.
    ========
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    It is really odd that my MH-C9000 from Thomas Dist just last week is a 0G0B01... My biggest concern after reading most of this thread was that it might miss termination at the lower charge rates, and mine has been perfect on my first few ~2000 mah batts(new and old) that I charged at 400 ma, so now I really don't want to chance trading in on a different unit...

    Maybe I ended up with the older unit due to having to call them to manually change my order...I had originally ordered a LaCrosse BC-900, but then a few hours later, found the C9000 and definitely wanted to switch... I think what threw me off was that the thomas site search for AA chargers (last week) was not showing the C9000, only the BC-900, but I see that it is fixed now.

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by PJbatman View Post
    It is really odd that my MH-C9000 from Thomas Dist just last week is a 0G0B01... My biggest concern after reading most of this thread was that it might miss termination at the lower charge rates
    The version that you've got includes the improved charge termination algorithm - it's only the versions starting with 0F that had that problem.
    Firmware Developer for the UltraSmartCharger: Open Source Charger/Analyzer for NiMH/NiCad/NiZn batteries.
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hello Burgess,

    If your charger works properly, I don't see any reason to be concerned. The original release of the C-9000 worked very well with healthy cells. The "improvements" were added because a large number of people were trying to use and recover "crap" cells.

    This is not entirely true, but you get my drift...

    In order to check out your unit, you will need to find a source of crap cells, because it is harder to get healthy cells to malfunction.

    [sarcastic mode on]
    You may be able to borrow some cells from a friend or neighbor that leaves them on the charger 24/7 to make sure they are always ready to go. This is one of the best ways to turn a healthy cell into a crap cell. The other source is to find cells that have been thrown into the back of the junk drawer. These are cells that stopped working well a while ago and were tossed into the back of the drawer instead of the recycle bin, hoping for a miracle to bring them back to life.
    [sarcastic mode off]

    To test your unit, you need to charge at the lowest charge rate, and set a timer. The charge should terminate after around 120-140% of the cells capacity has been put back in. The timer is a back up for you to terminate the charge if necessary.

    The other issue is that the charger heats up when charging 4 cells at 2 amps. It is best to run this test with cells that are broken in and have been in constant use (i.e. NOT crap cells). Charge a set of 4 cells at 2 amps and check the temperature of the cells at the end of the charge. The cells should stay below around 140 F. Temperature is monitored at the negative end of the cell, so make sure your cells have good contact with the temperature monitoring strip when doing this test. This is not a test to run on new cells, or cells that have been in storage, until they have been properly broken in. The charger heats up while charging at 2 amps and some of this heat is passed on to the cells. If the cells are in a questionable condition, they will also heat up during a charge at this rate, and the combination can overheat the cells, sometimes melting the shrink wrap and sometimes causing the cell to vent. In the improved units, thermal paste has been applied to the junction of the temperature probe and the metal band that contacts the battery for better heat transfer.

    My cells run up to around 120 - 130 F during 2 amp charging.

    If everything checks out and works well, you are good to go.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hello Power Me Up,

    Just to further confuse things, I have a 0F "improved" unit...

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  24. #24

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Hello Power Me Up,

    Just to further confuse things, I have a 0F "improved" unit...

    Tom
    Tom, what do you think is the primary termination criteria on the improved unit. It looks like my 0G0E01 unit terminates on maxV set to 1.47V (or 1.48V actuallysince i could see it hitting 1.47V mark and staying there for a minute or two).
    I posted a separate thread about this, but no one cared to comment.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    I am just curious if anyone knows exactly what they have changed between the 0G0B01 and 0G0E01 versions, other than making the temperature sensing more accurate.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    NiOOH, Maybe there is something totally different about AA Nimhs, but in my experience charging sub-C Nimhs, peak detection is never controlled by a particular max voltage. It is always controlled by a combination of voltage drop (in the range of a few thousandths of a volt) over time and cell temperature increase. I have had some of my better AA cells get to 1.50V at the end of a 2A charge.

    One improvement idea for the the C9000 would be to have it display the voltage to a thousandth of a volt, and display it continuously during charging...

  27. #27

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Quote Originally Posted by PJbatman View Post
    NiOOH, Maybe there is something totally different about AA Nimhs, but in my experience charging sub-C Nimhs, peak detection is never controlled by a particular max voltage. It is always controlled by a combination of voltage drop (in the range of a few thousandths of a volt) over time and cell temperature increase. I have had some of my better AA cells get to 1.50V at the end of a 2A charge.

    One improvement idea for the the C9000 would be to have it display the voltage to a thousandth of a volt, and display it continuously during charging...
    PJbatman, I am not arguing against that, quite the opposite actually. In my experience the peak voltage depends on charging current, ambient temperature and the state of health of the battery.
    That is why I find it interesting that my unit allways (no matter what cells and charging current I select) terminates the quick charge about a minute after the cells show 1.47V
    I have a reason to believe that it terminates on maxV as I explained here
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=175531

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    Hello NiOOH,

    I believe the C-9000 utilizes -dV termination. The difference between the original and the improved units has to do with the method of detection and the -dV value. I also believe there is a peak voltage cut off, but I think it is set to 1.6 - 1.7 volts. The display during charging shows the resting voltage and not the voltage under load, so that may explain why you often see 1.47 volts at the end of the charge.

    I have not checked this, but it would be interesting to charge some NiCd cells and see if you get the same voltage at the end of the charge. NiCd cells usually terminate at a higher voltage than NiMh cells.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  29. #29

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    I received my Wizard today from Thomas Distributing, and like PJbatman got revision 0G0B01.

    Say, for instance, my, uh, neighbor had some of those crap cells he wanted to to miraculously bring back to life. I guess it would be wise to monitor the temperatures as Tom posted above.

    Any reason to consider exchanging for a more recent iteration?

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000, the Wizard One Charger (Part 2)

    I managed to resist this for so long, but in a moment of weakness today I placed an order with Thomas Distribution for the MH-C9000.

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