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Thread: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS!

  1. #1

    Cool Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS!

    This thread is a comparison of the current Fenix emitters. For comparison to other current Cree and Rebel 1AA lights, please see my multi-level AA roundup comparison review

    To see results of all the heads in 2AA format, please see my new Fenix L2D Q5 vs R100, R80, Q2, P4 Comparison Review: RUNTIMES+ thread.


    EDIT: Update Nov 15/07: Added Fenix Cree Q5 results. The head exterior styling looks similar to the R100 Premium now, but emitter end looks like the Q2 shown below.

    EDIT: Update Oct 22/07: Fenix Rebel R080 head added to results. Sorry, no pics - but it doesn't look appreciably different from the R100 head.

    The contenders:

    From left to right: Rebel R100 "Premium", Cree Q2 "Special Edition", standard Cree P4. These three lights were all bought from fenix-store.com, whereas the R80 and Cree Q5 (both not shown) were bought from fenixtactical.com.



    Beamshots:

    On Turbo, with AW RCR in P2D body (Q2) or Duracell 2650 NimH in L2D body (R100 & P4)




    Note that I didn't have enough of the same body type for all 3 shots simultaneously. The R100 and standard Cree P4 are on Turbo on L2D bodies with 2650mAh NiMH, and the Q2 is on a P2D body with AW RCR (and is thus slightly brighter than the other two). The R080 looks similar in pattern to the R100, although mine has a slightly cool tint in comparison.

    Method: All my output numbers are relative for my home-made light box setup, a la Quickbeam's FR.com method. My relative overall output numbers are typically similar to his, although generally a little lower. You can directly compare all my review graphs - i.e. an output value of "10" in one graph is the same as "10" in another.

    Throw values are the square-root of lux measurements taken at 1m using a light meter.

    Summary Chart for Turbo mode with 2650mAh NiMH in L1D, or AW Protected 3.7V RCR in P2D



    Despite what the beamshots seem to show, my lightbox and light meter report that the new R100 produces more overall output and throw than the Cree Q2. The spillbeam is also wider on the Rebel head (although the Q2 has a narrower, brighter spillbeam). Note that these output numbers may be an underestimate of the magnitude of the difference.

    For comparison purposes, here are the results of a "ceiling-bounce" test in a small windowless room, with my light meter on the floor near the base of the light (which is shining upward in candle-mode), in a L2D body on NiMH:

    Rebel R80: 5.6 lux
    Rebel R100: 5.8 lux
    Cree P4: 4.9 lux
    Cree Q2: 5.5 lux
    Cree Q5: 7.1 lux

    As you can see the Q5 has a noticeable jump in output compared to the others (in L2D format). This effect is less pronounced in P2D or L1D format. For more detailed info on L2D results (including runtimes), see my Fenix L2D Q5 vs R100, R80, Q2, P4 Comparison Review: RUNTIMES+ thread.

    Runtimes:

    All runtimes done in my lightbox under a cooling fan, with the identified batteries listed below.

    "Turbo" mode on NiMH (Duracell 2650mAh)


    Hi/Med/Lo modes on Alkaline Duracells




    Note that runtimes in 1AA mode seem be slightly reduced with the new Cree Q5 head. Interestingly, the low mode on alkaline is ~50% brighter on the new R100 and Q5 heads. Most people are not likely to consider this an improvement, however, as one of the main complaints with Fenix circuit-controlled low modes is that they don't go low enough. The R080 head is even brighter on Low mode, leading of course to lower runtime.

    Turbo mode on AW Protected 3.7V RCR


    Temperature:

    There are reported concerns that the Rebels run hotter than equivalent luminous flux bin Crees. To see how Fenix has managed, I’ve done some crude temperature readings of the exterior surface of the head near the emitter using a flexible temp probe. For this test, I've used the P2D body, to minimize the amount of aluminium body heatsinking available. Note that no external cooling is applied for this test. Readings taken at 30sec intervals:



    As you can see, the R100 actually ran *cooler* surface temps than the slightly dimmer Cree Q2. Unless Fenix has mysteriously screwed the heatsinking in some way, it doesn't look like temperature will be a problem on these new Rebel lights.


    Conclusion:
    • The Cree Q5 is definitely your best choice for maximum overall output among these models, but the Rebel versions have a wider spillbeam and longer runtimes.
    • The Cree Q5 tends to have lower runtimes in the brighter 1AA modes than the other lights (likely reflecting the higher Vf of Q5 emitters). Low mode seem comparable between the Q5 and R100.
    • The Rebel R080 is still an excellent performer for the price. Although not as bright as some others, runtime was signficantly improved for equivalent output on Hi mode. Lo mode results were less impressive.
    • The Rebel beam pattern is very pleasing on my samples. Rebel emitters are believed to produce better color rendition outdoors, and this seems to be the case to my eye as well.
    • The Fenix L1T/L2T v2.0 comes with a protruding forward clicky (so no tailstanding possible). Quality seems very high, so it looks like the many fans of this type of clicky will be pleased.
    • No apparent problems with heat build-up on the R100 head.


    There you have it. Cheers!
    Last edited by selfbuilt; 11-15-2007 at 07:34 AM. Reason: Added Fenix Q5
    Full list of all my reviews: flashlightreviews.ca. Outdoor 100-yard Beamshots 2011. Latest: Orcatorch D500.
    Gratefully accepting donations to my battery fund.

  2. #2
    Flashaholic Tubor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Thanks for doing the review! Very informative.

  3. #3
    Flashaholic* woodrow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    NICE!!!...Review. Thanks for all of your hardwork. I am really impressed with my P3DR100. So much so, that I just ordered a LP M1R(ebel). It is amazing that so much light can come out of such a small speck of a led. Also, that the light can be of such a nice tint.

    The above being said, they are not night and day better than their origional cree counterparts. If I read the charts right, All three leds were pretty close to each other. The rebel was better, but if I had a older light, I might not feel that I need to sell it because it is now outclassed.

    Thanks again for the great review.
    "I only smile in the dark...my only comfort is the night gone black..."lyrics from Garbage

  4. #4

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Wow, thanks for doing this review, very nice, the Rebel runtime looks great!
    Welcome to take a look at my beamshots at 5m ,10m distance and lux readings

  5. #5

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by woodrow View Post
    The above being said, they are not night and day better than their origional cree counterparts. If I read the charts right, All three leds were pretty close to each other. The rebel was better, but if I had a older light, I might not feel that I need to sell it because it is now outclassed.
    You are quite right. My output scale is linearized, so as you can see there's typically only ~10% improvement with each step up from P4<Q2<R100, except on certain modes (although runtime is also increased in some cases). But not enough to trigger an upgrade for most.

    But for those considering their first purchase, I don't see any reason to go for the crees at this point in time (unless you are getting a custom upgrade, like the Q5).

    Thanks for the support everyone!
    Full list of all my reviews: flashlightreviews.ca. Outdoor 100-yard Beamshots 2011. Latest: Orcatorch D500.
    Gratefully accepting donations to my battery fund.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Wow, what a fantastic job you did.

    Thanks

  7. #7

    Popcorn Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Yes again, well done, nice work and much appreciated!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Nice reviews! Thanks.

    That datalogger really comes in handy.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    WOW....very nicely done!! Thanks!
    FlashCrazy's FlashlightConnection.com! 5% Coupon code: CPF

  10. #10
    *Flashaholic* Patriot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    woohoo! Very nice review and very useful! I've been waiting for a comparison like this and was glad to see the Rebel do so well. Since owning my P3D Rebel I've suspected that any Rebel would do well in a heads-up test. Thanks for all of your work.

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* NA8's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    +1 Great Job.

    Proof reading questions:

    L1D CE P4 output and throw readings of 39 and 37 seem awful close together. Is that a typo ? Or is there just no spill on that one ?

    Looks like the temperature chart time scale should be seconds instead of minutes ?
    Last edited by NA8; 09-25-2007 at 09:39 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    impressive reviews, thanks for effort and time.

    warren,

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    I assume the circuit Fenix is using is the same for all emitters, which makes me wonder what is happening with the Rebel 100 in low mode? Any ideas?

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* Kilovolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Thanks, interesting and very useful.


  15. #15
    Flashaholic* nanotech17's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    some hardwork to be reckon with.
    Thanks a lot for the great work



  16. #16

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by NA8 View Post
    L1D CE P4 output and throw readings of 39 and 37 seem awful close together. Is that a typo ? Or is there just no spill on that one ?

    Looks like the temperature chart time scale should be seconds instead of minutes ?
    Thanks for the catch on the temp chart - just fixed it.

    As for the output/throw readings, those numbers are correct. Note that they are completely independent and don't use the same scale.

    The throw value is objective - it's simply the squareroot of lux @1m, and can be reproduced by anyone. This conversion allows you to directly compare throw numbers, since it "linearizes" the scale (which is necessary, since light decays at an inverse square law with distance).

    Output is completely relative to my particular lightbox setup. This is not in lux, lumens, or any other objective measure - since it will be different for every individual setup. All I can say is that my relative output scale (ROV) is linear and seems to correspond well to the expected relative output of most lights. So while the absolute value is meaningless, the relationship of one light intensity to another is pretty accurate (i.e. twice the amount of light produced gives you twice the relative number). One wrinkle here is that I've noticed very strong throwers with little spill tend to get abnormally low scores in my lightbox. That's why my MRV-series comparisons give throw-adjusted values, since that is more appropriate in those cases. But all my other reviews use the same standard ROV scale, so you can compare relative output across my range of lights.

    So, in this case, the P4 Cree and Q2 Cree are putting roughly the same throw (i.e. ~1400 lux@1m), even though the Q2 Cree is putting out ~20% more light overall (47 vs 39 ROV) according to my lightbox. The likely reason for this is the medium-texture OP reflector on the Q2 is adversely affecting throw (as you would expect).

    In practical terms, this means the Q2 Special Edition has a brighter spill than a standard P4 Fenix, but with roughly the same throw (and same overall beam width). This is the price you pay for getting rid of the infamous Cree rings.

    Quote Originally Posted by filibuster View Post
    I assume the circuit Fenix is using is the same for all emitters, which makes me wonder what is happening with the Rebel 100 in low mode? Any ideas?
    No idea ... since the circuit was presumably designed around the output characteristics of the Cree, perhaps there's some considerable difference bewtween the two classes of emitters at the lower drive currents? Any theories are greatly appreciated!

    And thanks for all the support everyone!
    Last edited by selfbuilt; 09-26-2007 at 07:48 AM.
    Full list of all my reviews: flashlightreviews.ca. Outdoor 100-yard Beamshots 2011. Latest: Orcatorch D500.
    Gratefully accepting donations to my battery fund.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Said it before and I'll say it again: Best reviews since Doug retired.

    Thanks a LOT!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Thank you. I love info that justifies my purchase. P2D RB100 is a killer light in its class.
    Too many lights! Stop me!

  19. #19
    Flashaholic veleno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Great job!! Thanks!


  20. #20
    *Flashaholic* Gunner12's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Great review, thanks for all the work you put int this.

    I think the Rebel might have a higher low because of its lower Vf, for the same voltage, the Rebel usually draws more current then the Cree. How that applies to the other modes, well since the Rebel has a lower Vf, it might lessen the draw on the batteries on the other modes so there should be a longer runtime.

  21. #21
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Much appreciated, many thanks. I have been waiting for such review.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Thank you for your valueable review

  23. #23
    Flashaholic audioman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Great job
    very useful review

  24. #24

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunner12 View Post
    I think the Rebel might have a higher low because of its lower Vf, for the same voltage, the Rebel usually draws more current then the Cree. How that applies to the other modes, well since the Rebel has a lower Vf, it might lessen the draw on the batteries on the other modes so there should be a longer runtime.
    Could be, although I would have thought Vf wouldn't matter as much with Fenix's current-controlled circuitry (as it would on some of the simpler regulator circuits out there). But its been a while since my university physics courses, so I'll leave it to the engineers here to educate me . What you suggest at least makes sense to me in principle ...

    Still no sign of my L2T v2.0 (it will be 6 weeks on monday since my shipping notice from fenix-store.com). I think I can safely write that one as sacrificed to the shipping gods . I've ordered a replacement from fenixtactical.com for when they get their new batch in (with improved forward clicky, I understand). Standard shipping usually only takes 2 days from them, since we are in the same city. Hopefully it won't be too much longer before they get them in.

    Thanks again for the support everyone - glad my work is appreciated.
    Full list of all my reviews: flashlightreviews.ca. Outdoor 100-yard Beamshots 2011. Latest: Orcatorch D500.
    Gratefully accepting donations to my battery fund.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* NA8's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by selfbuilt View Post
    As for the output/throw readings, those numbers are correct. Note that they are completely independent and don't use the same scale....
    Ooops..

    Great explanation.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Could someone explain what version is best for me ? P3D premium 100 or L2D premium 100 ?

    If I understand all spec, P3D will have higher output 175 vs 200 lumens, but L2D will have 2,4h runtime vs 1,8h.

    I will use it on my MTB, and will run it on rechargeable batteries. Which one fits my needs best?

    Whats the weight different with rechargeables batteries?

    /Magnus

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* NA8's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by Yps View Post
    Could someone explain what version is best for me ? P3D premium 100 or L2D premium 100 ?
    /Magnus
    Welcome to Candlepowerforums.

    Your question deserves a thread of it's own. You should post the same question over in the LED Flashlights group as you will get more visibility and more answers than buried here in this thread.

    I bought a L2D because I wanted to use the AA NiMH rechargeable batteries and charger that I had. Both lights are very good.
    Last edited by NA8; 09-29-2007 at 04:03 AM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Just added LxT v2.0 head (Rebel 080) results to the main post.

    I still need to do the P2D body runtime test, but so far am quite happy with entry level addition to the Fenix line.
    Full list of all my reviews: flashlightreviews.ca. Outdoor 100-yard Beamshots 2011. Latest: Orcatorch D500.
    Gratefully accepting donations to my battery fund.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* NoFair's Avatar
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    Buttrock Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Quote Originally Posted by selfbuilt View Post
    Just added LxT v2.0 head (Rebel 080) results to the main post.

    I still need to do the P2D body runtime test, but so far am quite happy with entry level addition to the Fenix line.
    Thanks for the great review!

    Sverre

  30. #30

    Default Re: Fenix Rebel vs Cree: L1D/L1T/P2D OUTPUT, RUNTIMES, BEAMSHOTS

    Not really a part of this review, but as update for those who are interested in how the L2T v2.0 does relative for the L1T:



    As you can see, while you may get ~twice the output on 2AA, runtimes seem to be a bit shorter on both alkaline and NiMH.

    Cheers!
    Full list of all my reviews: flashlightreviews.ca. Outdoor 100-yard Beamshots 2011. Latest: Orcatorch D500.
    Gratefully accepting donations to my battery fund.

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