Car stalled tonight, any guesses why?

geepondy

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From previous threads, I know there are quite a few knowledgeable CPF car mechanics so I'll post here what I posted in a Saturn car forum.

When leaving work tonight, my Saturn 2002 SL1 automatic cranked over longer then it should before starting then immediately stalled. Started it up again and left work. Drove into supermarket parking lot about three or four miles away and when I slowed down because the car in front of me stopped it stalled again. Started it up again and drove the rest of the way home about 15 miles, without incident including a bit of stop and go traffic at a couple of lights.

Any guesses what might have caused this? Do you think I might have gotten lucky and it was some stuck dirt in the fuel line or do you think it maybe signs of a fuel pump starting to go, or something else. When I got home, I had about a third of a tank of gas left but filled the remainder up with premium. Do failing fuel pumps tend to die at once or experience intermittentcy.
 

BIGIRON

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That kind of intermittent stuff is the toughest to find and fix. It'll drive you crazy.

You didn't mention the "check engine" light, so I assume it didn't light up. That doesn't mean that error codes aren't stored in the car's brain. Usually, a good auto parts store will read it for you: if not prepare to get ripped for some $$ by a dealer or mechanic. Another option is to buy a code reader from Harbor Freight for $40 or so and do it yourself. Those cheap HF readers work fine, I've had one over a year and probably read over 15 vehicles with it.

My first thought is as yours -- fuel problem. Don't know the Saturn system, but the filter, pump and gauge sender are probably a single assembly in the fuel tank. Which means the fuel tank must be emptied and dropped to replace any of it. Now aren't you glad that you filled up?

If you decide to take it on yourself, you might consider buying an Alldata subscription www.alldata.com . Cost $20 first year and provides way more and better info than the commonly available DIY manuals.

Keep us posted. Hope this is a short thread.

BTW - if your fuel filter is the inline type, replace it first. Just a few $$ and could very well be the problem. It's also possible you have an accumulation of water from condensation, since your weather is getting cooler. A bottle of fuel treatment that disperses water is not expensive and won't cause any harm.
 

The Shadow

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First of all, as a fellow Saturn owner you have my sympathies...

+1 to everything BIGIRON said above. Excellent advice. I've got a few comments about my Saturn (a 1994 SC2) that may relate to your problem. I'm not sure how different the engines are, so keep in mind this may or may not apply.

For the Check Engine light, there's a trick to reading the codes by inserting a paper clip in the port under the dash. The Check Engine light will blink out the diagnostic code. Check the Saturn forums or a repair manual for details. I don't know if it works on the newer computers, so you may need the code reader anyway.

My fuel filter is inline, located near the engine. It's also something I won't change myself, as it's too tight for me to get in there.

As for your current problem, there are lots of causes, but I've had the exact same thing happen to me, sometimes without throwing the Check Engine light. My car is a manual, and I'd feel it buck when driving. When I put the clutch down, the car would stall. Because I'm still moving I could put it back in gear and automatically restart. An automatic can't do that, so you'll have to coast in Neutral and restart it. This problem has been caused by a sticking EGR valve. There's a little plunger in there that goes up and down. It gets all gummed up with deposits are starts to stick. I've been able to remove the EGR valve (it's right on top of the engine and held in with only 2 bolts and an electrical connector) and clean it with carb cleaner. Or you could buy a new one and replace it just as easily. I'd hold off on buying and replacing parts until you get a valid engine code, but the cleaning is quick and cheap.

As for my sympathy comment earlier, I've got 158K on the car and it's still going strong. I really like the car, but absolutely HATE the company. That's not for this thread, but deal with them long enough and they'll screw you over too.


Good luck!
 

geepondy

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Hey Big Mike, I've had so-so luck with the car and mixed feelings towards the dealership. For the most part except for when they put the oil filter over I tend to believe a previous stuck gasket from the old filter and it leaked like a sieve so I was down to less then a quart before I realized that (they said the seal on the current filter was bad), I believe the service department has provided very good service and accurately diagnosed my problems. However, it's been terrible, terrible expensive. They charged $540 to replace an intake manifold gasket and charged the what they said book 5.5 hours labor at $85 per yet the job took less then three hours. I know probably some techs are more experienced and faster then others but that and another instance makes me tend to believe Saturn sure pads the book labor rate for jobs. Maybe all dealers are like that.

Anyhow here is a post from the first Saturn response which seems knowledgeable. I just went out and started the car after it has been sitting for a few hours and it started fine. I'm nervous though in that I hope these intermittent stall problems mainly only happen at low rpms as I don't want to be on my morning commute in the third lane of a busy interstate when this happens.

"Fuel pump usually give you some clues that they're wearing out. Things like surging on the highway or under a load. Same for fuel filters. It's easy enough to check with a $15.00 fuel pressure gauge.

If the car stalled, there should be a stall code in the computer. Though, if it didn't set a light, it may not be there. This is where a scanner that can read a datastream can come in real handy.

It may be nothing more than a dirty throttle body or dirty idle air control valve, which is a pretty simple fix.

I doubt that it's dirt in the injectors, or at least not dirt that magically got out of the injector and fixed itself. The pintel is very tiny and it would have to affect all the injectors to cause a stall."


I have no idea what a dirty throttle body or dirty idle air control valve is and if it's easy to check.
 
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BIGIRON

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Another good thing about Alldata is that they give you approximate part cost and the book time for a repair.

I tend to agree that charging book rates seems like a real ripoff, but I have a friend, whom I trust, who owns an indy garage. His position is that some of the jobs get screwed up and take way more than the book time, so by charging by the book it kind of evens out. Sort of a crap shoot for the customer and a safety net for the garage.

I disagree that a fuel pump will usually give warning other than bushing noise (if it's in the tank). You can literally hear it making a strained, whirring noise. Sometimes. Usually a pump either works or it doesn't.

I don't particularly buy the dirty throttle body idea or idle air control valve either -- that's usually just a profit point for dealer maintence. They would only be noticeable at cold start or idle. A concentrate fuel cleaner will take care of the throttle body (Techron Concentrate - make sure it's the concentrate at about $9 bottle - the regular is not as effective). You can test the idle air control valve just by disconnecting it. If the engine changes speed or smoothness, it's not the valve.

The clogged EGR valve or tube would cause roughness, particularly at idle and from the foregoing post, seems to have the potential to cause a stall. If it's easily accessible clean it up and see what happens.

There's so many problem possibilities with a modern engine that the computer is really the best way.

Good luck. Start simple and cheap if you take it on yourself. This stuff can make you crazy.
 
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carbine15

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Same thing happened to me. A vacuum hose came loose. Check for a small black rubber hose that's not connected to it's home and plug it back in. In my case the hose was worn through and needed replacement. $12 later I was back on the road.
 

turbodog

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I just got my truck back from getting the idle air control valve cleaned. It cranked as ran fine, but it would sometimes die @ idle. Also, idle was 200-300 rpm low.

Was cheap fix. Cost $59 for the cleaning.
 

chmsam

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Just a few random thoughts.

Forgive me if I missed this, but was the weather wet or very humid? Bad plug wires can do this in the wet. Easy to check -- in the dark or near dark, pop the hood and with the engine running spray a mist (do NOT drench the engine) over the engine. If you see a funky little lightning storm it means it's time for new spark plug wires or possibly other ignition parts.

The old rule of thumb in the days before engine diagnostics was, "If you think it's fuel, it's really electrical," and vice versa. An engine monitor download is a good idea but if you don't have that option, expand your thinking when looking for the source of the problem.

If it was really hot out it could have been simple vapor lock.

Another thought for older cars is that an electrical ground could be starting to fail.

Fuel problems can be a complete PITA to run down without a computer. However, it's usually pretty cheap to change out the in line filter, run some Castle Fireball Plus or other another good injector/fuel system cleaner (but follow the instructions carefully), and so on. Also, it's always good preventive medicine to run decent quality gas (not necessarily higher octane) and to be careful to not fill up when the station has the tanker truck in sight since refilling the station tanks stirs up all sorts of crud that might make it through their filters.

Hope this helps & good luck.
 

jnj1033

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Same car, same symptoms, here's what it was:

Been there, done that! Check your battery's charge level. Autozone has a device that will test your battery, as well as your alternator output, at no charge. They should also be able to retrieve and interpret trouble codes from your computer. Also, check your battery terminals for corrosion and build-up. I've had all kinds of interesting behaviors resulting from dirty terminals.

I have a 2001 Saturn SL2. I had exactly the same symptoms a while back. Turned out, my wife left the dome light on for several hours a few nights before. After charging the battery, the car behaved normally. Oddly, the battery can be partially depleted, which will cause the stalling problem, while still having enough juice to start the car.
:thinking:

Based on what you've described, I don't think it's your EGR. I replaced the EGR valve on my Saturn last year, and when the old one failed, the symptoms went way beyond occasional stalling. It lit the check-engine light and caused dramatic performance problems such as 2000+ rpm idling, loss of power, and running rough. Autozone retrieved the trouble codes for me, and EGR was at the top of the list.

Alternators are not designed to charge a flat battery. They are intended to replace the power that is used to start your car. If you ever suspect you've severely depleted your battery, you should charge it using a dedicated charger that runs off an A/C power source as soon as possible. Autozone can do that too. Also, automotive batteries are not intended to be severely depleted. Running a car battery flat, and then letting your alternator try to recharge it will shorten the lives of both components.

Good luck. I hope this helps.
 
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snakebite

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hard starting from cold and stalling during warmup could be the imfamous coolant temp sensor.very common on saturns.they are plastic and crack letting coolant inside.
then it lies to the ecm.
 

MarNav1

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Re: Same car, same symptoms, here's what it was:

Very difficult to troubleshoot in this manner, codes would help greatly. I'm not sure how handy you are with cars but lots of times just checking the basic things will fix the problem. A manual isn't very expensive and will tell you what to check and when to check it and some of the tools you will need also. My Oldsmobile went haywire and it was the Throttle Position Sensor. When it goes south the computer doesn't know where the throttle is. I'd check for codes and look for the simple things first, some of which are listed above. Get a manual and then you can proceed to your level. One final note, be careful with the ignition system on these newer cars. They are HIGH powered and can really zap you. Let us know what you find out.
 

geepondy

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To reply to some of the useful suggestions, weather was fine, also plug wires just replaced two months ago. I'm going to take a look at it this afternoon and also go to autozone to see if they have a code reader I can use even though it didn't throw a code.
 

geepondy

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Well I went out and bought a bottle of Techron concentrate today. It along with the many other brands of fuel cleaners say to put the contents in a nearly empty tank. Mine is nearly full, do you think it matters if I put it in now or should I wait for the tank to get low which will take a week. The car didn't stall on me during afternoon errand runs.

I was observing the idle rpms today. It was above 1k when first started but then in drive or once warmed up, it would drop down to roughly 800 but sometimes would drop down to 600. Is this normal do you think? The 600 seemed pretty low although as mentioned it didn't stall.
 

BIGIRON

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Not having a bottle in front of me (where have I read that before?) I seem to remember a recommendation of adding a bottle to 12 or 16 gallons. If that's the case, that's probably about what you have in your tank. I'd think putting a bottle in 30 gallons would dilute it too much and putting a bottle in 6 gallons or so, while it might clean very effectively, wouldn't clean for long.

I might be totally off on this, but I've always felt it better not use the cleaner when your going to run through a tank quickly, like when on a roadtrip or put it in the tank when you're going to be parked for awhile. Theory is that if it sits too long, much of the stuff will vaporize (assuming it's basically a solvent) and if you run it through without stopping, you won't get the full cleaning effect. I always try to use it when I'll be doing regular around town driving for a few days. Just my thinking.

The change in idle speed is interesting, assuming the engine is at operating temp and all other things are equal. And assuming you're not having an a/c cycling. This is where the troubleshooting section of a manual can help. I'll check and see if any I have can offer suggestions.
 
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BIGIRON

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I looked thru a couple of manuals for gas engines that cover 2002 models and, basically, I come up with "all the above". Just about everything mentioned in previous posts shows up for consideration.

BTW - correct idle speed should be listed on the underhood label dealing with the emissions system.
 

geepondy

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I should have clarified myself more. The instructions say to put the cleaner in an empty tank and then fill up. Mine is already full so I wonder if it's ok to do it now or should I wait until the tank is empty again. I would imagine it would get into the the system quicker if you put it in first before the gas which is why they say that but I wonder how much of a difference it would really make.
 

BIGIRON

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No problem. It would just mix more thoroughly and quickly that way. Go for it, it'll mix completely anyway.
 

geepondy

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Hey the car is definitely running peppier with a smoother power curve. Is it the 93 octane gas after never using it before or the bottle of Techron fuel system cleaner?
 
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