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Thread: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 8/27/2010 (Newer Info Added)

  1. #61
    *Flashaholic* LuxLuthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/2/07

    Added the AW Chinese generic 6V 30W 2000Hr bulb that has been discussed in other threads. No known default lumens were given by AW. Many thanks to AW for sending me these sample bulbs. Sturdy bulb for 30W as compared to 6V 35W, and will be interesting to see its run times.

    Also added the Svetila.com equivalent of the Osram 64430, made by Tungsram (#56580), and revised the projected lumen and life stats of the Top Bulb 64430 version which I noticed had different defaults from their website here.

    I have not posted the run times for bulbs yet, which continues to be a crucial factor in deciding on bulb quality. I can also see the need for a summary comparison sheet of the various 6V options.
    Last edited by LuxLuthor; 12-02-2007 at 01:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/2/07

    Based on my comparison testing, I guess you could consider my implicit endorsement of AW's $3.50 6V 30W bulb by considering that I just ordered 30 of them from him. Many thanks for his sending me the samples for testing.

    Waiting on the ROP being sent by Pokerstud. I posted my pix of the low resistance testing setup on first post. I continue working with AWR revising his Hotrater formulas, and being shocked at the results of the run time results.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/2/07

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Based on my comparison testing, I guess you could consider my implicit endorsement of AW's $3.50 6V 30W bulb by considering that I just ordered 30 of them from him. Many thanks for his sending me the samples for testing.

    Waiting on the ROP being sent by Pokerstud. I posted my pix of the low resistance testing setup on first post. I continue working with AWR revising his Hotrater formulas, and being shocked at the results of the run time results.
    My, friend, LL, based on your charts and having seen the physical proportions of this bulb, I know it is a bright bulb and compares very directly to the Chinese 64430. The Chinese 64430 has a similiar Lux output and predicted over 6000 lumens. I would expect this bulb to act like wise but be brighter in total lumens because of the LUX readings.
    Subjectively, did it appear to out perform the 64430 in actual use as far as beam patterns and comparative brilliance?
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/2/07

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Based on my comparison testing, I guess you could consider my implicit endorsement of AW's $3.50 6V 30W bulb by considering that I just ordered 30 of them from him. Many thanks for his sending me the samples for testing.
    Lux, I don't get it.

    According to the charts, AW's 6 volt 30 watt mystery bulb used 64.6 watts to produce a reading of 139 lux while the Philips 6 volt 30 watt bulb produced a slightly higher 143 lux at only 37.8 watts.
    I think I know what bulb my batteries would prefer.

    Sure, you can crazy overdrive the AW bulb but why would you want to when other 6 volt bulbs seem so much more efficient at producing higher light levels at much lower consumption rates?

    In this example, 70% higher power consumption seems an awfully high price to pay for reduced instaflash risk with the AW mystery bulb.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/2/07

    Northern Lights, I will have to load them both in lights using similar reflectors. As you know, bulb hotspots, artifacts, throw, and other performance characteristics are a whole other matter, and can be much more subjectively derived.

    LumenHound, on a purely Lux/Watt basis, I cannot dispute your observations....however, IMHO that is too limited in evaluating an incan bulb's usefulness. I am not saying the Philips 5761 is a bad bulb if used in the proper setup....ideally with a regulated driver.

    The 5761 has a VERY narrow voltage tolerance range, and because its ideal Amps are just beyond the AW Li-Ion PTC cutoff, there are few flat output battery options, despite the bulb being 50-75% more expensive (including shipping). Two fully charged Li-Ions without a PTC can easily flash the bulb unless resistance is added. AW's developing regulated D Driver would make it more useful. Until then I would not recommend using the 5761 without an AWR Hotdriver.

    By contrast, the AW bulb voltage range makes it much more tolerant of direct drive battery choices. At a higher practical % overdrive, it slightly outperforms the 5761 in lux measurement.

    Then there is the whole issue which I have alluded to--namely--lux dropoff with age at a particular overdrive voltage. Suffice it to say that my short term "initial max lux" readings reported on first post can drop off precipitously with accumulated run time--depending on the bulb. This additional information will need to be displayed as curves of Lux vs. Hrs (at particular voltage).

    If your primary concern is choosing optimal Lux/Watt efficiency (aka: Lux/battery run time), they would choose LED's and deal with the unnatural color, flood beam, and lack of focus (aspherical LED mags excepted). While the Lux/Watt notion is of merit, I personally do not reach for a particular light thinking of which will use less energy for recharging. If I need more run time, I may choose another light, or take another set of batteries.
    Last edited by LuxLuthor; 12-06-2007 at 08:01 PM.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    Big thanks to Pokerstud who sent me a set of 3854 Big D bulbs which I tested and posted on 1st thread.

    I used assumptions that I read in the FAQ thread that 3854-L is 11W 6V 290L at default; and 3854-H is 24W 6V 600L at default specifications.

    I didn't see a reliable value for life, and remember my Amp measurements only goes to 0.1 digits. You can also see picture of my setup which has almost no resistance. I always test bulbs with transverse filaments like this bulb has perpendicular to light sensor/tube axis. I'm not an ROP Guru, but I'm guessing that the sweet spot is the 8V 4.7A setting.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    This has got to be the best thread eva
    Needs a Sticky

    Well Done Lux Nice Work
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  8. #68
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Big thanks to Pokerstud who sent me a set of 3854 Big D bulbs which I tested and posted on 1st thread.

    I used assumptions that I read in the FAQ thread that 3854-L is 11W 6V 290L at default; and 3854-H is 24W 6V 600L at default specifications.

    I didn't see a reliable value for life, and remember my Amp measurements only goes to 0.1 digits. You can also see picture of my setup which has almost no resistance. I always test bulbs with transverse filaments like this bulb has perpendicular to light sensor/tube axis. I'm not an ROP Guru, but I'm guessing that the sweet spot is the 8V 4.7A setting.
    Lux,

    I am rather amazed at what the 11W LOLA can take as compared to the 24W HOLA. Great work Lux.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pokerstud View Post
    Lux,

    I am rather amazed at what the 11W LOLA can take as compared to the 24W HOLA. Great work Lux.
    That surprised me too...but when I read the back of the 2-pack it says 3854-H is high intensity lamp; 3854-L is long time lamp. Just goes to show how much is controlled by the lamp manufacturing specifications.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    that's great research on the ROP bulb, seems it can be pushed much harder and perform far better that the CPF community knew about.
    great discovery
    "Let your light shine" - it's the one commandment we all obey...

  11. #71

    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    hey lux how maqny of the same bulb do you test ?
    is it just the on of are the results of an average of a certain amout of bulbs ?
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  12. #72
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    Every report was done with two bulbs, done on different nights, except I only had one of the new ROP-H (but had two ROP-L), and one of the TopBulb version of 64430.

    In every case despite taking down testing tube setup, and setting it up again another night, the results were way closer than I would have thought....flash points mostly within 0.2V of previous reading, Amps the same at every point, and Lux within 2-5 Lux at almost every voltage data point. In the 2 or 3 data point cases (out of hundreds of data points for all bulbs) where there was between 5-10 Lux difference, I took the average. Never had more than 10 Lux difference.

    I take my time to measure the exact distance (1 meter) between bulb & sensor; same height & distance from side of table. I make sure to have bulbs with transverse filament perpendicular to sensor tube direction, and line up by sight from a distance behind back of tube so the bulb is centered.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    Well done Lux
    thats pretty sweet

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Every report was done with two bulbs, done on different nights, except I only had one of the new ROP-H (but had two ROP-L), and one of the TopBulb version of 64430.

    In every case despite taking down testing tube setup, and setting it up again another night, the results were way closer than I would have thought....flash points mostly within 0.2V of previous reading, Amps the same at every point, and Lux within 2-5 Lux at almost every voltage data point. In the 2 or 3 data point cases (out of hundreds of data points for all bulbs) where there was between 5-10 Lux difference, I took the average. Never had more than 10 Lux difference.

    I take my time to measure the exact distance (1 meter) between bulb & sensor; same height & distance from side of table. I make sure to have bulbs with transverse filament perpendicular to sensor tube direction, and line up by sight from a distance behind back of tube so the bulb is centered.
    Black 6D MAG458, Black 3D MAG85,
    Black 3D AW6V, Silver 2D MAG11/ROP
    Pewter 2C - Need Ideas Black 2D QUAD Q5 CREE

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 12/9/07 (ROP)

    Some information on my testing, and what it means.

    You have to recognize that manufacturers specify a default voltage lumen output, which is ONLY accurate if they test their bulb in an "integrating sphere" ("I.S.")--which measures the total output of the bulb from all directions. This is referred to as "bulb lumens."

    However, not all manufacturers that list their default voltage bulb lumens have actually had the value independently verified in an I.S., because they are quite expensive.

    Then the next thing to recognize is extrapolating higher lumens based on a Welch Allyn re-rating formula (on their website URL) as voltage and current changes....is not valid for other bulb types. It even becomes invalid for WA pushed higher than 25-30% of default voltage. Specifically, notice the values of this 1185 bulb for voltage and current in the URL. By manually inserting different voltage/amperage values in the URL, you can force the WA website to use a set of formulas to predict bulb lumen output at various inputs.

    Code:
    http://www.walamp.com/lpd/webstore/rerate.tpl?action=rerate&V2=10.8&L2=3.36&adj=5&partnumber=01185-U
    What you see on my destructive testing charts, under the "Predicted Lumens" column is based entirely on this re-rating formula from WA's website URL, once their formulas were figured out and put into a spreadsheet by CPF member AWR. In contrast, my Lux readings are ACTUAL tested results taken by light meter on 2 separate bulbs, mostly done on two separate nights. If the 2nd bulb test results did not correlate within a few lux of the 1st bulb tested (which was only the case with two bulbs), a 3rd bulb was sacrificed, and the two closest readings were then used.

    This lack of objective data from bulb to bulb is why I did the destructive bulb testing. You can read my setup description in the initial post, and why I measured Lux at 1 Meter. I saw this testing as akin to Silverfox independently testing all the batteries at various Amp discharge loads.

    I'm not even sure that you can use my Lux reading compared to manufacturer's default voltage bulb lumens, and extrapolate bulb lumens at raised voltages...in part because it assumes default voltage bulb lumens that the manufacturer listed are correct.

    For example if you look at the 5761 bulb, Philips says at 6V it puts out 765 BL. My measurement gave 94 Lux at 6V.

    So theoretically, if you wanted to know what an accurate bulb lumen reading would be at 7V, you could take my tested value of 143 Lux. Then you should be able to solve for x in this equation based upon the default "known" comparisons:

    94 Lux 143 Lux
    ------ = ------ (cross multiply)
    765 BL x BL


    94x = 109,395 (solve for x)

    x = 109,395/94

    x = 1164 bulb lumens

    Is 1164 BL more accurate than the WA formula predicting 1312 BL for a Philips bulb? Honestly, I don't know.

    I do know however that an actual (repeated) Lux test reading of 143 Lux is a brighter reading than any of the Lux readings I got testing the WA 1185 bulb here. I also know that the Philips 5761 bulb is 52% brighter at 7V than at 6V....which is more reliable than the WA formula predicting it is 71.5% brighter.
    Last edited by LuxLuthor; 01-07-2008 at 10:22 PM.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    lux... i'll save the padding by using just one word:

    thanks!

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Question: I just received a newly built Mag85 from KEW,a fellow forum member. (He sent the batteries fully charged). How long do I need to wait before turning my new light on,so I don't instaflash my new Mag85's expensive bulb? (The bulb is a Welch-Allyn WA1185..)

    (Also,do I need to remove the Mag's lense before turning it on?)

    Thanks,Mike
    Last edited by AMD64Blondie; 01-11-2008 at 05:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Quote Originally Posted by AMD64Blondie View Post
    Question: I just received a newly built Mag85 from KEW,a fellow forum member. (He sent the batteries fully charged). How long do I need to wait before turning my new light on,so I don't instaflash my new Mag85's expensive bulb? (The bulb is a Welch-Allyn WA1185..)

    (Also,do I need to remove the Mag's lense before turning it on?)

    Thanks,Mike
    It depends on which batteries, how many, state of current battery charge (NiMH drop quickly), what other stock or modded components are in it, whether he did any resistance mods, etc. It should have a glass lens and metal reflector replacing stock plastic.

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    Flashaholic DMC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Does anyone have any experience with a Sylvania 58680?

    Light Output: 1,450 lumens Energy Used: 75 watts Average Lifetime: 4,000 hours Volts: 12 Bulb Type: T4 Base Type: GY6.35 Bi-Pin Color Temperature: 3,000K Axial Filament

    https://www.lightbulbemporium.com/pr...asp?prod=58680
    and
    http://www.servicelighting.com/catal...m?prod=SL58680

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Where do the Maglite branded Xenon (Mag-num Star) drop-in bulbs weigh in here? Does their 6 Cell Xenon replacement approach the ROP L 11W? Thanks.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Quote Originally Posted by Techjunkie View Post
    Where do the Maglite branded Xenon (Mag-num Star) drop-in bulbs weigh in here? Does their 6 Cell Xenon replacement approach the ROP L 11W? Thanks.
    No, they are lower outputs. The ROP is the pelican bulb listed above.
    The Mag Charger, Mags premier bipin rechargeable is 200 lumens. You see the Manum Star will fall in below that or they would put that in the MC. Manum Star is a quick, cheap and good way to get more light but there is no substitute that compares to the hot wire moddifications. The WA 01160 bulb, a bipin that is made for 5V is put into Mag Chargers at 6Vs and that runs at about 369 torch lumens. (Bulb lumens x .65 = torch lumens which is how much light goes out the front) . Next Hope the comparison helps demonstrate the differences.
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  21. #81
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Big thanks to Pertinax for sending me two 64610 bulbs and Ictorana for two Energizer HPR-71 (6V/10W) bulbs for me to test. I'll post testing results when I get to them in next few days.

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    Default 64430 (Tungsram 56580 version from Svetila)

    Noticed you have the Tungsram 56580 bulb listed with a 4,000 hour life. 4,000 hour life is mistakenly listed on Svetila web page.

    2000 hour life is listed on the factory carton. see pic. Lumens would double?



    After plugging in Lux values and correct bulb life of 2000 hours the lumens did about double.

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...76#post2337776

    added: used volts and amps measured in my mod. 10.1 vbat, 9.5vbulb
    Last edited by jimjones3630; 01-30-2008 at 11:12 PM.

  23. #83
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    Default Re: 64430 (Tungsram 56580 version from Svetila)

    Quote Originally Posted by jimjones3630 View Post
    Noticed you have the Tungsram 56580 bulb listed with a 4,000 hour life. 4,000 hour life is mistakenly listed on Svetila web page.

    2000 hour life is listed on the factory carton. see pic. Lumens would double?

    After plugging in Lux values and correct bulb life of 2000 hours the lumens did about double.

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...76#post2337776
    Good info from box. Thanks. I did take the 4,000 hrs from the Svetila site, as I didn't get a box like this, and will correct that chart when this CPF website isn't going down every 2 mins.

    The reduction of life down to 2,000 hrs means projected bulb life will now shorten, but I'm not seeing where a shortened lifespan would have an effect on projected lumens, or measured Lux.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Did double the lumens in the hot rater with correct bulb life or 2000 hours and the measured volts, amps in my mod. see the link in my last post.

    The predicted bulb life did go from 16 something hours down to 8 hours when corrected the design bulb life to 2000. That was not the only change. getting 9.5vbulb bumped the "real lumens" to over 3,200.
    Last edited by jimjones3630; 01-30-2008 at 11:28 PM.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Quote Originally Posted by jimjones3630 View Post
    Did double the lumens in the hot rater with correct bulb life or 2000 hours and the measured volts, amps in my mod. see the link in my last post.

    The predicted bulb life did go from 16 something hours down to 8 hours when corrected the design bulb life to 2000. That was not the only change. getting 9.5vbulb bumped the "real lumens" to over 3,200.
    Jim, now you got me really curious. You are not using any of the versions of Hotraters that I have ever seen. None of my various Hotrater versions have formulas that use bulb life in any calculation for lumens.

    When I think about the concept of using bulb life, I cannot think of a reason that it would affect Lumens either. Certainly, the measured Lux is the most objective information I have been able to find, and when I spoke with AWR, he agreed and was looking for a way to get new formulas that would reflect actual measured Lux at various voltage levels.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    your posted hotrater page for:

    Top Chinese Bulb shows.
    volts applied 10.0v, measured amps 7.6, measured lux 151, lumens 3885

    Tungsram.
    volts applied 10.0v, measured amps 7.9, measured lux 250, lumens 1913

    So with almost half the lux of the Tungsram the Top Chinese bulb has double the lumens?

    I pugged in to the hotrater your given values except for volts, amps, and design bulb life then got double the lumens for the Tungsram so should be no surprise.

    The Tungsram now yeilding twice the lumens with the lux you measured of 250 is almost twice (151) that of the Top Chinese bulb. More the lux measured the higher the lumen should be.

    How can twice as much lux measured yeild half the lumens?

    There is no particular reason I can think of to wonder about a different copy of the hotrater than yours. Not sure how can expect to get more lumens with less lux measured but do appreciate your ongoing work.
    Last edited by jimjones3630; 01-31-2008 at 03:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Jim, now you got me really curious. You are not using any of the versions of Hotraters that I have ever seen. None of my various Hotrater versions have formulas that use bulb life in any calculation for lumens.

    When I think about the concept of using bulb life, I cannot think of a reason that it would affect Lumens either. Certainly, the measured Lux is the most objective information I have been able to find, and when I spoke with AWR, he agreed and was looking for a way to get new formulas that would reflect actual measured Lux at various voltage levels.
    I wonder what is happening too. I forwarded the latest version of Hotrater I have to JJ and I believe, Lux and I have the same version. Changing the life on mine only changes the expected burn time not the lumens. Something is wrong with that file if changing the Hours changes anything else. The higher the bulb life suggests that you may be able to run a higher voltage to get more lumens as. Increasing the Vbat on the hot rater reduces expected bulb life, but increasing the OEM bulb life only affects the expected bulb life. It only works in one direction.
    So what I am saying the calculations work this way. Increas voltage, expected lumens go up, life goes down. Increase the original bulb life and expected life goes up. No other calculations change.
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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    Yes I agree, more lux measured should yield more lumens.

    The Tungsram 56580 shows a lux measurement of 250 and 1913 lumens by your calculations. The top Chinese bulb is 151 lux and 3885 lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by LuxLuthor View Post
    Certainly, the measured Lux is the most objective information I have been able to find, and when I spoke with AWR, he agreed and was looking for a way to get new formulas that would reflect actual measured Lux at various voltage levels.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    As I posted above I also changed voltage, amps. and plugged in the other values from LL's posted values, ie. Lux measured of 250. There is no mystery to me why the Tungsram now shows almost twice the lumens.


    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Lights View Post
    I wonder what is happening too. I forwarded the latest version of Hotrater I have to JJ and I believe, Lux and I have the same version. Changing the life on mine only changes the expected burn time not the lumens. Something is wrong with that file if changing the Hours changes anything else. The higher the bulb life suggests that you may be able to run a higher voltage to get more lumens as. Increasing the Vbat on the hot rater reduces expected bulb life, but increasing the OEM bulb life only affects the expected bulb life. It only works in one direction.
    So what I am saying the calculations work this way. Increas voltage, expected lumens go up, life goes down. Increase the original bulb life and expected life goes up. No other calculations change.

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    Default Re: Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 1/7/08 (Info Added)

    I don't think any of us are understanding what you are saying that reducing a bulb's life span increases a bulb's lumens, but oh well.

    The difference between the projected lumens of both bulbs, using AWR's spreadsheet shows how meaningless and worthless the spreadsheet has always been....especially if you are given bogus default lumen values starting out.

    Looking at the default 6V, the Tungsram 56580 is reported by www.svetila.com as 320 Lumens, and my actual measurement is 54 Lux. We are then told that the 6V default for Top Bulb Chinese generic version of the 64430 is 650 Lumen, but I only measured 33 Lux.

    It is immediately obvious to me that the Top Bulb website has given a falsely inflated default lumen value....therefore all projections starting with a false 650 default Lumen value will also be inaccurate projections. Based upon my measurements, I would say the ACTUAL default Top Bulb Lumen value is more like 250 bulb lumens.

    In addition, as a separate problem there is not a good correlation using AWR's spreadsheet formulas (adapted from Welch Allyn's re-rating formulas for their own bulbs) to project lumens FOR ANY BULB, even if we were given an accurate default lumen rating. The only way to see how inaccurate the claimed default lumen rating, and the accuracy of the AWR spreadsheet projected lumens is to do actual measurements. This was the reason I did this whole topic, and sacrificed all these bulbs.

    To summarize, it is my opinion based upon my actual testing that you cannot rely upon either the website advertised default Lumen reading, or the AWR spreadsheet calculated projection lumen values that we have all be tossing around as reliable.


    If actual measurements are done at various voltages, that is more reliable than website claims or AWR spreadsheet projections. It is my observations that Welch Allyn, Philips, and Osram brand name bulbs do give more accurate default voltage bulb lumen rating values than others I have tested.
    Last edited by LuxLuthor; 01-31-2008 at 10:34 PM.

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