Best HID off-road driving lights...

Sorry, newbie post. I hope this is not a repost...I've looked thou the forum and found no direct answer to this...

Our shop just purchased a Peterbilt 335 medium duty truck (33,000lbs gvw) and we would like to add some driving lights.
Our warehouse is located approx 20miles out of town on a fairly lonely gravel road which i would like to light up like the sun is shining.

I was thinking of a nice set of HID driving lights from one of the name brand manufactures, Hella, KC, Lightforce, ext...

What is the best light (IYHO) that will throw the most light without regard to on road regulations, the lights will only be used on the gravel road with no oncoming traffic. I'm very courteous to always turn off my high beams with oncoming traffic, so they will be used with respect, plus I'm lucky if I see one person every 2 weeks on that road. The will not be used on the highway. I want to treat them as off-road only.

Thinking about Hella FF1000's, Hella Rallye 4000, KC8" HID's, Lightforce 240HID...

All these lights are great, and they also vary in price from $800-1600 a pair, but they all run a 35w bulb. I know HID is a totally different ballgame than halogen, but from what i can find, most these lights throw about 700,000 candle power. Is this a fair assumption, or is one clearly better than the other? Its hard to find good specs on these lights in terms of output.

Can you get higher than 35watt HID lights for off-road automotive applications? I'd like to see over 1m candle power per light or better if possible.

Size is not an problem, i have probably 12" or so in height and depth. Most of these lights are 8", and the size of the light seems to have a lot to do with the output.

Any idea's would be appreciated!
-mark

unclejemima said:

... a fairly lonely gravel road which i would like to light up like the sun is shining.

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oo:

You've come to the right place! Don't forget before and after photos when it's finished.

The candlepower they put out will depend on how focused the light is, and hence why I have a rechargeable spotlight that claims 2 million cp from a 100W halogen bulb. (I have no idea if that's accurate.) Lumens describes the actual amount of light being put out.

About the only other things I can add is that there are 55W HID bulbs around - maybe others too - and the bigger the reflector the more light it'll catch and send forwards.

:welcome:

Ive heard really good things about the 4'' Baja Fuego HID lights. They probably won't throw like the Hella's but they put out a lot o flight.

Also the Hella HIDs shine like no other! Automotive HID's don't even come close. I was out in Glamis, CA where there are sandrails and buggys by the Hundreds. Hella HIDs push out a beam like no other.

Hello Mark,

Welcome to CPF.

LightForce makes a 50 watt HID now.

Scroll to the bottom of the page. While I have no experience with their HIDs, they do have a good reputation with off-road race teams.

I copied this from their FAQ page.

From its 2001 Baja victory with Team Hummer, the 240 HID set a new benchmark in HID lighting. FACT! Almost half the weight of its rival and greater light intensity by virtue of its larger parabolic reflector. NOW WE HAVE A 50 WATT version. Read the following carefully! 87% GREATER INTENSITY than our previous 35 watt model! Compared to its competitors? 150+% MORE LIGHT! It also incorporates the Goretec filter, so no problems with dust or water ingress (Does the other guy? No!) Our internal 50 watt ballast negates the hassle of external mounting. PLUG 'N PLAY! The ballast is built by a leading USA aviation supply company, so no generic ballasts of dubious quality for this legend! Included are billet focal spacer rings to allow you to broaden or tighten the beam pattern. If you are seeking the ultimate in long range performance and reliability for your vehicle, this is it. Baja 500 or 1000? Paris Dakar? Your light has arrived. Why compromise?

I am not affiliated with LightForce, but I do have a 240 Blitz that I modded and their large reflector works pretty well. I would like to get one of their 50 watt HIDs and make it self contained with a battery box and a handle.

Please post in this thread when you make your decision and keep us updated.

Regards,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I am also looking at purchasing a Blitz SL240.
May I know what modification have you done on your SL240 and if the overall output improve a lot?

I understand there is a member here with a nickname SWAY who did a modification on his SL240 too. But not sure what was done.

I am wondering if it can run on my custom 14.6V 4400mH battery pack.

I've installed several Hella Rally 4000 HID's with fantastic results. I have no experience with the other lights mentioned, so I don't know how they'd compare.

:buddies:

as diesel_bomber said, the hella rally 4000's are really, really nice, i just recently installed 2 of them in my brush guard for lighting up trails at night, and oh my are they ever bright. I have a friend who has just over 500 watts of halogens on his front bumper, he told me one day, that his halogens would beat out any hid out there so...naturally, i just had to show him up.

got them here,
http://www.truckcustomizers.com/products/K4HLA263.3.html
in the pencil beam and do yourself a favor, and buy a wiring kit, it makes everything easier. You might also consider tying them into your high beam circuit, so that they can only be switched on when the high beams are on, this is good because if you do happen to come across a car, your not stumbling to shut off 2 different things at once. When i first installed them, i had them on their own switch, and i lit them on a long stretch of road by me, and just as they were coming up to full power, a car came around the bend. realized that night it would be easier to wire them to the high beam

Of the brands you mention, I would definitely only get the Hellas. KC's entire light lineup these days is Far-east junk, Lightforce's stuff, while heavily advertised and widely sponsored so as to generate rave reviews, doesn't live up to their breathless hype and is neither ECE nor SAE approved (which can get you in trouble at weigh-and-check stations even if they're not powered up). One or both of these reasons for dismissal also apply to all the rest of the nonbrands (Blitz, Fuego, Bigie, Sirius, Catz, Eagle, the list goes on and on.)

All of the Hella models you mention are quite good, as are their Micro Xenons if you have limited space (not the same as their Micro DE Xenons, which are not especially great). The other HID lamps well worth considering, though they're harder to find in North America, are the Cibié Oscar SC Xenons, and the Bosch Navigator Xenons.

The one and only road-legal HID wattage is nominal 35. The one and only road-legal HID color temperature is nominal 4100K-4250K. A legal-spec HID bulb produces more than plenty of light; there's no good reason to use a different type even if you're only using them off road. Using HID bulbs of nonstandard wattage and/or color temperature is unwise for various good technical reasons having nothing to do with what some lawbook says (for example, higher color temp doesn't help you see any better, and higher color temp HID burners put out significantly less light per watt than lower color temp HID burners).

Forget trying to pick lamps by comparing or specifying "candlepower". It's a real term, but it's badly abused to sell lights, witness those so-called "million candlepower" spotlights that don't produce a million of anything, measured in any real way. The distribution of light within the beam (defined in candela or lux at various angles or points within the beam) is far more important than its absolute amount. Driving lamps are relatively easy to make; driving lamps that generate favorable subjective reviews are really easy to make, but good driving lamps are relatively difficult to make.

"Driving lamp" covers an enormous range of beam patterns from a wide flood to a pencil spot. I cannot imagine you're travelling too fast on this gravel road, so an ultralong-range pencil spot beam would be of limited use. The "Euro Beam" (ECE) Hella or Bosch units would probably be your best pick; these produce beams with the 1-lux light level reaching about 1100 feet ahead and 275 ft wide, and the 4-lux light level reaching about 500 feet ahead and 165 ft wide. That is ample width and distance for the usage you describe. The width comes in helpful on curves or where animals tend to run into the road.

The pencil/spot beam, on the other hand, will give you 1 lux to 3800 feet and 131 ft wide, and 4 lux to 1640 ft and 25 ft wide. If you really feel you need an ultralong-range beam, then I'd recommend one Euro-beam (on the right) and one pencil beam (on the left).

Mounting height also bears considering. The higher the lamps are mounted, the greater the seeing range and the less prone the lamps are to gravel damage.

Absolutely amazing forum. Great responses, and great members. Everyones responses were top notch, and it gives me alot to think about.
I always thought that lightforce was the "cats meow", but perhaps not.
Because we have to keep a logbook, and get the occasional DOT officer pull you over (plus going into weight stations) i don't really want any hassle with the lights, especially because they are so expensive, if i have to end up taking them off i'm no farther ahead...
I will do research over Christmas and make a decision shortly after.
Thanks for all the great posts guys,
-mark
PS
I do have to admit, the Lightforce 50watt HID is very tempting, but I think this only because of my inner man speaking out... (ho ho ho, more power )

In my impression, Lightforce has a pretty good reputation here for well shaped, bright reflectors and lightweight equipment, but I'm really not impressed with the juvenile advertising that JetskiMark quoted.

How twisty is the gravel road?

My problems with Lightforce's stuff include:

-The lack of any SAE certification or ECE approval — some or most of their stuff would certainly have no trouble at all meeting either or both technical regulations, and yet they don't bother. "Trust us, they're better than any technical standard requires" just doesn't carry any weight.

-And speaking of weight, lightweight construction doesn't impress me, per se. In extensive testing, my general finding is that thermoplastic materials such as Lightforce lamps use are not nearly as robust as thermoset resin reflectors and glass lenses in the long run.

-Use of nonstandard bulbs (a significant problem in their halogen lamps; haven't done an extensive survey of which bulbs they're using in their HIDs). A lot of their lamps have used such bizarre choices as obsolete film projector bulbs, which can leave the owner of such a lamp in the lurch when availability becomes a problem. There's no technical reason why these non-automotive bulbs would be preferable in automotive service; it appears to be either an attempt to own the market for replacement bulbs, or "the Lightforce people got a screamin' deal on a boatload of projector bulbs" kind of deal. There are a couple of dozen automotive halogen bulb types, many of which are available in numerous variants (wattage, luminous flux, etc.), and all of which are much more widely available than the odd nonstandard stuff Lightforce has used.

-Strange accessories recommended with hype having no basis in science. The notion is asinine that one can "convert" a driving lamp into a fog lamp by snapping on an amber or yellow plastic cover plate, and it's even more ridiculous to be selling a blue plastic cover plate as "useful in snowy conditions".

I'm just not favorably impressed when a company lies to me. When they tell a few small lies — or medium-to-large ones — I wonder what else they're lying about and why. There are enough suppliers of known/proven/tested/certified/approved-good lamps, made of robust materials, using readily-available bulbs, and without any of the hype and fibbing, that I just don't see a good reason to indulge the likes of lightforce (amongst many others whose marketing plans revolve around similar behavior).

IMO, of course.

Scheinwerfermann said:

-Use of nonstandard bulbs (a significant problem in their halogen lamps; haven't done an extensive survey of which bulbs they're using in their HIDs). A lot of their lamps have used such bizarre choices as obsolete film projector bulbs, which can leave the owner of such a lamp in the lurch when availability becomes a problem. There's no technical reason why these non-automotive bulbs would be preferable in automotive service; it appears to be either an attempt to own the market for replacement bulbs, or "the Lightforce people got a screamin' deal on a boatload of projector bulbs" kind of deal. There are a couple of dozen automotive halogen bulb types, many of which are available in numerous variants (wattage, luminous flux, etc.), and all of which are much more widely available than the odd nonstandard stuff Lightforce has used.

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The Blitz High Output Axial filament lamp is an Osram 62138 readily available on line for around 6 bucks plus postage. I'm not sure what the Osram part #'s are for the other lamps are but they can be found with a little research in the Osram catalog and CPF's incandescent forum. These bulbs are very popular with the 100W modified Mag-Lite guys because of their high color temp, luminous flux and small filament size vs standard automotive H type lamps that are designed for headlights not auxiliary lighting.

If you need a light with better throw/reach/return over standard automotive bulbs you have to use a different lamp……Guess this is why LightForce chose to go in this direction :shrug:

Later
Kelly

Thanks Scheinwerfermann. I also had/have the impression they're overpriced. What do they make the reflectors out of?

Hi Sway,

I remember reading one of your very early posting regards to the modification of a stock Blitz SL240 into a monster thrower HID.

May I know what form of modification have you done? I am thinking of ordering a unit and have it mod like yours and run on my 4400mH 14.6V RC lithium ion battery pack.

Cheers!

Sway said:

standard automotive H type lamps that are designed for headlights not auxiliary lighting.

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The design (engineering) difference you posit here between headlamps and auxiliary lighting doesn't actually exist. Engineering the optics for a high beam, "driving" beam (spot beam, flood beam, cornering beam) involves all the same techniques and a fairly constant, very simple photometric concept (axial hot spot, no particular control of stray light). The differences are in the shape of the beam (round, rectangular), the distribution of light around the hot spot, the intensity gradient coming off the hot spot, and other implementation issues, not conceptual ones. Depending on exactly what type of a beam one is designing, and for what purpose, there may be specified minimum and/or maximum intensities at various points within the beam.

If you need a light with better throw/reach/return over standard automotive bulbs you have to use a different lamp

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Sure, but then we need to decide what we mean by "standard" automotive bulbs. If we confine "standard" to "legal wattage for use in roadgoing headlamps", then you might have a point, but just grabbing one example out of many, 100w and 130w H1 bulbs are readily available. They're nonstandard only by dint of input and output power. A reputable-brand H1 100w puts out 2800 lumens, same as the 62138 (HLX), but the 100w H1 has a much longer B50 lifespan and is considerably more resistant to vibration-induced failure. Filament coil geometry, surface luminance, and other factors will obviously exert considerable influence on potential beam photometry, but having evaluated and dissected a fair number of Lightforce lamps, I have a hard time agreeing that their optics' precision is such that the filament geometry is the system's limiting factor.

Guess this is why LightForce chose to go in this direction

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Well...we're both guessing, as it seems. I am sure Lightforce has their own answer to the question. If that answer is as truthful as much of the rest of their advertising, well...then your guess and mine are still probably just as good as their answer!

I had a long, and rather heated, discussion with a LightFarce rep a few years ago. My thoughts on them is the smaller lights are good if weight is the number 1 concern, they are some what lighter then my Cibie Oscar SCs for example. However I have yet to be convinced that changeing the bulb/reflector relationship and clip on covers is the best solution for different beam patterns. Their claims of better durability may have some basis, however my Cibies have survived a high speed roll over with only a dent in the metal body, I also have doubts over the UV stabilty of the plastic Lightforce bodies. Personally I can't see the value in them, my lights cost me AUD$250 each 11 years ago and still retail, when you can find them, for AUD$300 each. Last time I looked the baby Lightforce was more expensive. It's interesting that pretty much the only people who I see using them here in Australia are the hard core macho 4x4 crowd. Trucks, ralliests and serious users stick with Hella and Cibie.
Oh yeah, just remembered, a local 4x4 magazine tested all the locally available lights a few years ago and commented that all the lightforce lights had very good long range pencil beam but less so spread beam. Interestingly their own 4x4s use Hella and Cibie lights.

Diesel_Bomber said:

I've installed several Hella Rally 4000 HID's with fantastic results. I have no experience with the other lights mentioned, so I don't know how they'd compare.

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I have two of em' on my Jeep.

People who ride with me at night (with no oncoming traffic I should add) are most impressed with their brightness after I turn them off and they realize how short the range of the stock lights have been.

Mine take a second to warm up so their intensity doesn't hit all at once. Turning them off after a few minutes makes the road seem really, really dark. Even with the high beams on.

These Hella Rally 4000 HID's seem to be $500+ each! You guys spent $1,000 on two lights?

Effective, well-made, durable lights cost money. How well do you want to see and how soon do you want to buy another set of lamps?

I've spent less on my HID retrofit than I would replacing the bumper, hood, and windshield after hitting a deer on some of the back roads in South Jersey.