ethanol?

Rothrandir

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ethanol has many benifits over regular 'ol gasoline, but it isn't being used nearly as much as it could...

being in iowa, i think it's a good idea (we have a lot of corn /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

other than the fact that there are people in high places with friends in the oil industry ( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ), what are the reasons it isn't being used more? higher octane, cheaper, doesn't clog things up, better for nature, good for iowa's economy ( /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ), makes us less dependant on foriegn oil...

it has even been used 100% in airplanes, and has been proven very reliable...


?
 

Monsters_Inc

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Errrm, look around at Australian online newsites. There was a whole debarcle about ethanol as a fuel, the alleged problems it causes in car engines, lawnmowers, etc etc.

NB: the controversy centred around ethanol mixed with petrol, supplied as petrol by the stations and not informing the public. Not ethanol used on its own as an alternative (which has been sucessful in Sth America for a long time I believe).
 

Silviron

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I had an uncle that ran on 100% pure ethanol.

He didn't last very long either.

But seriously, I'm all for utilizing any renewable energy source.

In a few cities (and maybe states, I'm not sure) they require mixing ethanol with gasoline (petrol) I lived in one for 12 years that used 10% ethanol for six out of the twelve months of the year and never had any major problems because of it: Had to change some of the rubber hoses on the carburetor a few years ago, that's about it, although it seemed as if I had to replace the more plasticy type fuel lines that came on the lawn mower and weed whacker with rubber within a few months or so.

I don't know what a higher concentration would do. I have heard bad things about it and heard neutral things about it in about equal amounts, but it seems to me even the bad stuff could be easily solved without major re-engineering.

Hey lets run them on nitromethane. Thats renewable, (I think) and we would get there so much quicker!
 

NightStorm

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Between a rock & a hard place.
Roth,

Let's see....where to start? OK, 8.5-1 air/fuel ratio (14.7-1 for gasoline), corrosive, resists vaporization below 40 degrees F and rots neoprene hoses. It would also take the entire yearly corn crop of Iowa to meet this country's energy demands for one day if cars and trucks ran 100% ethanol. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif It also has the tendency to loosen the rust and deposits in the fuel tanks of older vehicles that had previously been running on a straight gasoline mixture (other than gasohol), leading to obstructions through out their fuel systems. Other than that, it is renewable and possesses a higher octane number than pump gasoline. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Dan

By the way, all these problems also exist with methanol except that it burns at a 7.5-1 air/fuel ratio and generates formaldehyde (carcinogen) as a combustion byproduct. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 

Moat

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Also - to produce 3 energy units worth of ethanol from corn requires, at the very least, 2 energy units of fossil fuel (diesel, gasoline, natural gas, etc. required to farm, fertilize, ferment and distribute). May make sense to some corn farmers, politicians, and ADM - but not to me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

It can be produced much more effectively with certain fast growing species of pulpy, high lignin poplar trees, with a net GAIN of energy in its production, alone (theoretically, from the energy/burning of the wood waste byproduct).

Bob
 

binky

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What a great forum this web site is. I'm just sittin here a-learnin stuff. (I'm really not being sarcastic and it's hard to convey that in print) Keep it comin! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif
 

highlandsun

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Considering that US farmers are paid *not* to raise crops (wheat I guess, so not 100% relevant), because our farm productivity is too high, I don't think it's a problem to investigate what kind of farm output we'd need to supply a meaningful percentage of our fuel needs.

And there's also vegetable oils to consider: diesel engines running on soybean oil is a good start. No drawbacks documented.

There's also marijuana/hemp, which before it was outlawed in this country provided both an excellent fuel oil and excellent pulp base for making acid-free paper, which would have obviated any need for a lumber industry to deforest much of the Pacific Northwest or Amazon rainforest.

The US is in a sorry state, energy-wise, but not because there's not enough energy resources to go around. It's because greedy corporations don't want anyone using what's plentiful and easily renewable.
 

CNC Dan

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[ QUOTE ]
highlandsun said:

And there's also vegetable oils to consider: diesel engines running on soybean oil is a good start. No drawbacks documented.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just heard that in my state [MA] that diesel cars will be outlawed in 2004.

So much for bio-diesel
 

ikendu

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Ahhh.... alternative fuels! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
And...getting off of imported, foreign oil. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

The USDA did a study on how much energy it took to create home grown fuel for how much you get out. The results are:

Ethanol....1 to 1.25 (get 1.25 out for every one put in)
BioDiesel..1 to 3.20 <--- clear winner!

Diesels are also inherently more efficient than gasoline engines because they operate at higher temperatures and pressures for the combustion cycle. You also get better "mileage" out of diesel because it packs more energy (more energy dense) per gallon than gasoline.

My 2003 VW Golf TDI (Turbo Diesel Injected) is EPA rated at 49 mpg highway.

A renewable fuel like BioDiesel puts HUGELY LESS CO2 into the air than petroleum powered vehicle because the plants (like soybeans) absorb C02 as they grow and then release it later when the oil is burned...only to be reabsorbed into other plants when the growth cycle is repeated. BioDiesel consumes some Methanol in the process of changing soy oil into SoyDiesel...so it is not a 100% no CO2 cycle, more like 78% less C02 (pretty good huh?!).

BioDiesel also lubricates the fuel injector pumps better than dino diesel so the engines last longer (some report 300,000 mile life!).

The story on emissions:

Diesels produce hugely less amounts of all pollutants except for two; NOx and particulates. NOx is associated with a fuel combining with oxygen. Nitrogen is 70% of our atmosphere, so...it is there too and when present during high energy combustion also combines with oxygen into NOx. The higher the pressures and temperature (diesel /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif), the more NOx. NOx is a contributer to smog. To clean up the NOx, you need a catalytic converter (like gas cars already have).

Here's the rub, sulfer will destroy the catalytic converter's ability to clean up the NOx. The standards for sulfer content in diesel fuel sold in the U.S. are some of the worst in the world. By law, the sulfer content of diesel fuel by 2006 needs to be about 10 times lower than it is today. Once we have the low sulfer diesel fuel, we can use catalytic converters on diesels just like we do on gas cars. In fact, a number of sites say at that point diesels will be overall WAY cleaner than gas cars.

BTW...there is no sulfer AT ALL in BioDiesel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

So...there is this uncomfortable period until 2006 when low sulfer diesel fuel is mandated and the sales of diesel cars is unclear for that time. Although, VW has already announced a new diesel engine ("PD") for the Passat for 2004. So...(like Mark Twain), the reports of the diesel's demise may be a bit exaggerated!

As far as the amount of crop land needed for our fuel use, we import about 50% of our needs from foreign sources (Mexico, Venezuela, North Sea (Britain), Middle East, etc.). About 25% points of that come from the Middle East (hence commanding the attention of our gov't for decades).

So...at least for the U.S., we need to displace about half of our consumption of oil to stop importing.

A Minnesota agriculture site estimated that if all of its soybeans were crushed into oil and converted to BioDiesel, it would fill about 50% of that state's need for diesel. You can get about 49 gallons of BioDiesel per acre of soybeans (plus...you still get a lot of soy protein for animal feeds or other foods). Other oil seed crops (like rape seed @ 127 gal/acre) are more than double of that. I figured my 20,000 miles/yr of driving would require about 8 acres of soybeans just for me. At the moment, there are millions of gallons of soy oil that are "surplus" every year, so for a while...having enough is not a problem. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Later, if this REALLY catches on, maybe we can switch to those other higher yielding crops. There is even a plant that grows in the desert or salty soils that gives a high oil yield (jojoba nut...194 gal/acre).

Actually, I find this pretty exciting! (maybe you can tell /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

We might actually be able to get away from the spectre of our carbon based fuels "running out" and get on to a completely sustainable, renewable (and clean) source of fuel that we can grow what we need! No more ocean going super tankers (BTW...BioDiesel is also completely bio-degradeable and hugely safer to transport, it is after all, vegetable oil...one guy that runs a BioDiesel Co-op in CA drank some just to show how safe it was!), no more oil spills,....and maybe, just maybe, WAY less pressure to have wars and de-stabilize middle eastern gov'ts so we can ensure the continued flow of cheap petroleum to keep our cars and our economy humming.

I gotta tell ya, that seems like a goal worth supporting to me!

So...I got my diesel, and I will run BioDiesel (even though, at this early stage it costs more than dino diesel...$2.50/gal instead of $1.77 for dino diesel). It is starting to come down...it used to be $3/gal. But...it is a real, actual renewable fuel that you can burn RIGHT NOW. Not something we might have to wait 10 or 15 or 20 years into the future to be able to have.

BTW...Cedar Rapids, Iowa has been running a 20% BioDiesel mix in its buses downtown now for over 2 years...for the cleaner burning aspect.

Links:

Veterans of Foreign Wars site linking terrorism to foreign oil

Do diesels have a future?

The "Veggie Van" making BioDiesel out of used restaurant fryer oil ..."free" fuel!

BioDiesel.Org ...the whole BioDiesel story

VW TDI Club ...forum all about the VWs you can buy...and using BioDiesel in them
 

Brock

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ikendu Thanks for posting all that here! That would take about 20 different posts on TDI forum to get all that.

Darell I hope you read this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

Silviron

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I was reading in Home Power magazine about this old Volkswagen bus that had a converter in it that ran on waste grease. They "filled up" behind a McDonalds or similar "greasy spoon" eatery rather than at a service station.

The converter pretty much filled the bus, and performance wasn't even quite up to even even the normal old VW bus. but I think I remember it having gone coast to coast on waste products.
 

ikendu

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Brock...thanks for compliment!

I don't see a post from Darell...so, maybe he's out polishing the electrons for his EV!
 

Brock

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Darell has a little hand crank to charge it. It takes 36 hours of cranking to go 1 mile /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Actually I think his wife took him on vacation this week, poor guy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

Albany Tom

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Well, at least that's better than having to rub a bunch of balloons all over it. (This is the primary reason that the static electric car was not successful.)
 

Bill.H

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It was National Bio-Diesel Day on Monday (no kidding). My local TV news interviewed a heating oil dealer who sells it. Pretty interesting, the only problem is that in cold climates it can't be used straight since it gels at 35 degrees. The nice part is that there's NO adjustment or anything that needs to be done to your furnace to use it. Here in Maine it's mixed ~50% with dino for use as heating oil.
For those who don't realize it, diesel fuel and #2 heating oil are practically the same thing. The oil is dyed because it's not taxed as a motor vehicle fuel, and there are severe fines if you are caught with that dyed stuff in your car/truck tank.
 

ikendu

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You can also use Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) in your diesel under the right conditions and adjustments. I've seen stories where people in England doing this are being fined for avoiding the road taxes.

A little crazy IMHO since anything we can do to eliminate imported oil should be encouraged.
 

Charles Bradshaw

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Ethanol: Grain Alcohol - what is contained in beer, wine and BOOZE.

Methanol: Wood Alcohol - POISON in any quantity, deadly!

Denatured: ethanol with some methanol mixed in to make it not drinkable. Poison, blindness is least of your worries. Made this way to prevent alcoholics from otherwise cheap source of alcohol.

Many people don't know the differences.
 
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