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Thread: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Yes you read correctly.. I'm that ridiculous.

    I've been working on my full custom LED tail light retro for quite some time now.. I'll post up the other stuff soon too.. all micro controlled with PWM dimming for marker/brake functions and 8 channel sequential turn signals with adjustable fade in and fade out...

    The reverse lights will be PWM dimmed for parallel parking and such around town.. but if I'm backing down a dark driveway.. well.. it won't be dark!

    I can also strobe these babies for fun.. or for those pesky tail-gaters... heheh.



    I used 100mA 5chip superflux style LEDs.

    Over 100 degree radiation.. so it's just a huge flood.. these guys have no problem lighting up my whole back yard.

    So I ran out of the solder i had.. it was lead solder.. worked great.. I ran out to canadian tire and bought some bernz-o-matic lead free electircal solder.. all they had.. I did the board pictured in the back with this new stuff.. man.. what a waste of money that was. Such a huge pain to solder up that second board.. the lead free solder takes so much more heat to melt.. more than I liked to use on the LEDs.. and then it doesn't flow very well either.. and solidifies so quickly.. but then somehow stays very hot.... the properties of lead solder seem much more desirable to me.. I won't buy this crap again.. although it may just be junk solder.. maybe you can get good lead free solder.. but I won't be chancing it again.. I'm going to buy a nice spool of lead and screw this stuff....

    I fit 38 LEDs per side... at a conservative 75lm/w I get 1000lumen per side..(3.5Vf x 100mA x 38 = 13.3w per side) pretty bad ass seeing how 1 50w halogen headlight is about 1000lumen.. from the bulb.. not taking into account all the optical loss of reflection and refraction.. something the LEDs don't have to deal with... so until I get around to doing an OEM HID retro.. my LED reverse lights will be brighter than my headlights

    Kinda pointing a little towards the ground, but it was hard to position them properly.. and it was raining a bit so I didn't want to screw around forever.. you get the point though... they're F'n BRIGHT!

    Without further ado...









    Last edited by VanIsleDSM; 12-27-2007 at 10:27 PM.

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Mmm, that's quite nice. Where did you get the LEDs from and how much for the whole thing?
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
    Ian.
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  3. #3
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Ebay, there are a few sellers from HK.

    Just search for "100mA white LED"

    I got a bag of 100 pieces, more than 2500lumen for $60 shipped... I think that's gotta be the best deal going for LED? no heatsink or special driver needed.

    I'm sure they're the same as the Best Hong Kong LEDs.. they look exactly the same.. there are lots of info about them on HIDplanet, lots of people have ordered them now and are quite fond of them.. I think I'm gonna get some warm whites for the home.. I hear they are kind of yellowish, but that was only 1 report, no pic.. maybe mix in a few regular whites too if that's the case... and i just noticed now you can get a 40 degree version in a 5mm package.. too bad.. I would have liked to have used some of those along with the 100degree'ers to add some distance.. they weren't available when I ordered mine...

    As for longevity one member reports having used them as DRLs for 16,000miles @90mA with no ill effects.

  4. #4

    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Good job. I need to do something along those lines.

  5. #5
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleDSM View Post
    I got a bag of 100 pieces, more than 2500lumen for $60 shipped... I think that's gotta be the best deal going for LED?
    I wonder... 14 Cree P4s from DX, add $1.70 bulkrate = $59.82. 176 lumens each at 1 amp = 2464 lumens.

    Yes.

    What's the idea with the brake/indicator functions you mentioned? These aren't just reversing lights, but they are just white.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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  6. #6
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    These are just reverse lights..

    But I am getting rid of all the incandescents in my tail lights.. I already have boards made for the marker/brake function and turn signals.. just finishing up some work on the tail lights themselves.. and I still need to design and etch the PCB for the controller.. and work out one last little bug in the coding.

    Thing is with the P4s is you also need heatsinks and drivers.. and you'd need a damn big heatsink to run 5-6 in the space of my reverse lights.. there would be a lot of heat...
    Last edited by VanIsleDSM; 12-28-2007 at 12:42 AM.

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    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    You're talking about the same order of magnitude for the efficiency, so there'll be very roughly the same amount of heat produced (probably a little more since they don't manage 75 lm/W at 1 A) - the P4s just make it from a smaller package. You'd have to mount the stars on something, so might just as well use it to help conduct the heat away, and a resistor is just fine for a series of three.

    Don't get me wrong, I really like what you've done, and it looks more impressive. I presume the off-square look is to fit with your vehicle styling? Why only two LEDs per series?
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    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Hmm.. I suppose there is just as much heat.. I think they must be much more efficient.. there doesn't seem to be very much heat at all.. obviously easier to evacuate it over much more surface.. I'll do some temperature testing soon..

    2 per string because I used 9v regulators.

    I think with high power LEDs you should be using a constant current device.

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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    That is very cool. Do the new assemblies actually fit inside the original tail light housings?

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Yeah they all fit right in.. the brake and signal boards bend around a corner as they fit in as well... I'll post pics of the whole thing soon... just a pain in the ass to have to make them 800pixels.. I don't get it.. who has a 15" monitor still? what's the point?

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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Get the windows XP image resizer from the Windowx XP Power Tools

    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/d...powertoys.mspx


    its real easy!

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleDSM View Post
    2 per string because I used 9v regulators.

    I think with high power LEDs you should be using a constant current device.
    Seems like doubling up - a series resistor does control the current, just not exactly. How about some more photos of high and low modes?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleDSM View Post
    just a pain in the ass to have to make them 800pixels.. I don't get it.. who has a 15" monitor still? what's the point?
    "Ours is not to wonder why, but to..." etc. Seriously, I think the decision may have been to do with preventing too much horizontal scrolling for text, not necessarily because of the pics themselves.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Sweet! What kind of vehicle are you putting these in?

  14. #14

    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    That's neat! Much better than drop in LED replacements.

    I think the 800 pixels is due to bandwidth. Many of us are still on dial up; highspeed isn't available out in the sticks. Those pictures took me 5 minutes each to download.

    Making a WAG from the OP's username, I would guess the vehicle is a Plymouth Laser/Mitsubishi Eclipse/Eagle Talon.

    Got Biodiesel?

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    Thread Killer Illum's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    100ma LEDs....
    SMT....
    thats alot of heat by itself no heatsink?

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Yep.. '97 Talon Turbo AWD.

    They aren't SMT, through hole mounted... each LED has a nice thick metal base on the cathode.. I'm going to do some long term temperature testing with a thermocouple here pretty quick.. but so far there is no heat problem at all.. the LEDs barely get warm to the touch after 5 min or so.. The resistors on the back get hotter than the LEDs..

    If you think about it.. there's just so much more surface area for the heat to be pulled away from with this many dies.. each LED is 5 20mA chips.. so there are 190 LED chips on each side.. It's a lot easier to suck heat out dissipate it from all that surface area.. compared to 5 CREE or whatever..

    I don't really know efficiency numbers for small 20mA chips.. I imagine they are more efficient generally though.. than the power chips? Maybe I'm getting a lot more than 75lm/w, and maybe that's why there's barely any heat..

    Either way.. if there did end up being too much I'd just slather some nasa thermal epoxy I have on the back of the board and slap a heat sink on there to suck all the heat out of the resistors and the LEDs.. but I really don't think I'll need to do that.

  17. #17
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleDSM View Post
    Maybe I'm getting a lot more than 75lm/w, and maybe that's why there's barely any heat.
    That'll still be producing almost 90% heat, and only about 10% light. A quick calculation gave 11 or 12 watts of heat dissipated by each array. Have you measured the actual current they're running on?
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    I've derated the LEDs to 90mA while cold.. they start off drawing 1.56amp per side and after a few minutes of warm up they seem to reach stable thermal state quite quickly and top out at 1.85amp which is just over 97mA per LED. I'm sure they'll go a bit higher if left on for an extended time.

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    Flashaholic* Changchung's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Zebralight Spark Princeton Inova Petzl Maglite Bushnell 4 XM-L MagMod and a lot of Cree XM-L Lights Nitecore i4 Intellicharger Intl-outdoor 3400 Panasonic 3100 Bare and protected Samsung 3000 Sanyo 2600
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    Flashaholic* LukeA's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    That'll still be producing almost 90% heat, and only about 10% light. A quick calculation gave 11 or 12 watts of heat dissipated by each array. Have you measured the actual current they're running on?
    Um, wouldn't 75lm/W be around 31% efficient for white light?
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    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeA View Post
    Um, wouldn't 75lm/W be around 31% efficient for white light?
    Ummm...

    Depending on what you were talking about... maybe. Let me think a bit.

    The theoretical maximum (monochromatic green 555 nm) is 683.002 lumens/watt, which is the 100% point I was thinking of. But that's the luminous efficiency, not the energy/heat efficiency. I guess just because we're not as sensitive to other parts of the spectrum doesn't mean that the energy isn't going into light, just that we can't see it as brightly. An ideal white light source is 242.5 lumens/watt, so 75 lm/W is indeed around 31%.

    It does depend on it being ideal white light we're talking about, though, since doing that calculation with a peak in the green would give you an apparent result of over 100% energy efficiency.

    How would we know how many milliwatts of light (rather than lumens) are being given off?

    And does anyone want to do a more accurate calculation of the heat these things might produce, including from the resistors?
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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  22. #22
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    The resistors dissipate 4.1 watts of heat on each side.

    If we take that arbitrary figure of 75lm/w and compare to the perfect light source and get 31% light/heat ratio then I have about 9 watts of heat from all the LEDs on each side as well.

    ...I'll do some thermocouple temperature tests here soon.. if I'm feeling especially into it and not too terribly hung over tomorrow I may even whip up some current/temp graphs and such.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Doesn't sound too bad. The housings would normally each have a 25W bulb, right?
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
    Ian.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    The reversing lamps in that application would normally be a 12.8v, 27w, 32mscp (402 lm) item.

    There is a direct-swap 12.8v, 35w, 62mscp (780 lm) bulb with proper filament geometry and LCL that'd swap in and significantly upgrade the reverse lamps' output without heat or power concerns, but from what I can see that was only half the goal in this case, the other half being the project itself!

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Indeed that would help. But my LEDs will trump those 35w bulbs quite easily.. for more than 1 reason.

    They produce ~300lm more for one.

    And the filament bulb throws light in all directions.. they don't seem to pay a lot of attention to the reflector design for the reverse lights.. It's pretty horrible.. The LEDs are much more optically efficient.

  26. #26

    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    I got ahold of a couple of pieces of the high powered LED advertising signs and after some trimming and rewiring , a new tailgate for my dually Silverado I have running, brake and sequential turn signals on my truck, it cost me almost a grand in parts, paint and etc. but its been working flawlessly since last june.

    The lights are a double row of SMD, red, in three seperate blocks, left block has left sequential turn,run and brake, center block has running and brake, right block has T/S, run and brake.Its about 1 1/4 thick, about 2 inches high and runs from fender to fender just under the tailgate which is why I had to buy a new one and I trimmed about a half inch off the bottom so it would clear the lights red lense cover, rewelded and repainted.

    Yours looks good, ever thought of the idea of a LCD screen mounted flush in a tailgate like about 22 inches wide slaved to a camera in the front grill of the truck?

  27. #27

    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Not my idea but similar.

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* KingSmono's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Now that is cool. Good job. I can't wait to see pics of the final product. What kind of trigger are you using to make it strobe and what-not?
    "There are two kinds of light--the glow that illuminates, and the glare that obscures."

    -James Thurber

  29. #29
    Flashaholic* VanIsleDSM's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Thanks. I'm using a 40pin micro controller that controls everything, marker brightness level, reverse brightness level, brake brightness level, and controls the individual rates at which the sequential signal lights fade on and fade off to completely customize the way they blink.

    The reverse lights will normally be 'dim' but I'll have 'high' and strobe triggers up front.

    Here's a very early prototype of it using a smaller 28pin controller:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpeS-HkaYHU

    I have more inputs and outputs to play with aswell.. and I can hook my laptop up to the micro to add to the program I wrote for it... I'm thinking down the road I may add a couple mics for L and R and have the sequential signals act like amplitude indicators for volume.. along with some brake and reverse light strobing to go with the beat.
    Last edited by VanIsleDSM; 01-02-2008 at 07:49 PM.

  30. #30
    Flashaholic* KingSmono's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2000lumen+ LED reverse lights.. *Output Pics* MMMmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by VanIsleDSM View Post
    Thanks. I'm using a 40pin micro controller that controls everything, marker brightness level, reverse brightness level, brake brightness level, and controls the individual rates at which the sequential signal lights fade on and fade off to completely customize the way they blink.

    The reverse lights will normally be 'dim' but I'll have 'high' and strobe triggers up front.

    Here's a very early prototype of it using a smaller 28pin controller:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpeS-HkaYHU

    I have more inputs and outputs to play with aswell.. and I can hook my laptop up to the micro to add to the program I wrote for it... I'm thinking down the road I may add a couple mics for L and R and have the sequential signals act like amplitude indicators for volume.. along with some brake and reverse light strobing to go with the beat.
    Haha, wild. I love the turn-signals.
    "There are two kinds of light--the glow that illuminates, and the glare that obscures."

    -James Thurber

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