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Thread: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

  1. #121
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Hi
    I'm back again. Now I finished the 3-LED-testdevice.

    Pause-Light
    XR-E WD R2 and Carclo 10170 and internally etched glass lens @50mA

    Work-Light
    Diffus-part: Same XR-E WD R2 and Carclo 10170 and internally etched glass lens @150mA(low)/250mA(high)
    plus
    Light-up: One die of MC-E WD M and Carclo 10195 and clear glass lens @30mA(low)/125mA(high)

    Hall-Light
    All four dies of same MC-E WD M and Carclo 10195 and clear glass lens @4x750mA

    Shaft-Light
    XR-E WC R2 and aspherical glass lens 21,5mm dia x 20mm fl @1150mA

    In the lab it works similar to the former 4-LED-testdevice.

    We will test it at the weekend 8/9 August in Hirlatzhöhle - I will post some results, shure.

    If this new test device holds what it promisses in laboratory, I'm finished developing a reasonable headlamp for big caves. In this case I will post circuit diagram, layout and mechanical specifications, so everyone can build such a lamp by its own. It's rather for self made man than for commercial manufacturer. But may be there will be some manufacturer taking the ideas and developing a commercial device from it - would be very interesting!

    We started a poll on our caving club website to find out the wishes and requirements of cavers with respect to helmet lamps.
    http://www.hirlatz.at/umfrage/fragebogen_en.html
    The more cavers participate, the better the data basis to develop new improved headlamps.

    Regards Tobias
    Last edited by Tobias Bossert; 07-27-2009 at 09:21 AM. Reason: forgot pause-light and to define current levels

  2. #122

    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    *Edit for readability - sorry it was in paragraphs when I hit submit I promise!*
    I am working on designing a dedicated caving headlight as well. Right now I am looking at using 2 Endor Rebel stars with 3 emitters on each.

    Flood - I plan to use one star with a very wide angle reflector and either frosted glass or some other diffusing coating/film. I want a wide even spread. probably about 150 degree. A fairly strong diffusion would be necessary using any small reflector with these due to the widely spread emitters.

    Throw - The second star I hope to test the available 20 degree colmenating lens. This will be more for lighting up wide passages then a narrow beam to spot deep pits. Until I test it or see a review I am concerned about the throw pattern, and efficiency. I doubt it is much over 85% efficient and could be worse. For controls I am planning a 4 position switch.

    1. off
    2. Flood only - set at about 35 lumen or less. This is my resting or break time setting. I don't need any distance lighting, and am very concerned about glaring my companions. We will often be facing each other or consulting a map or such.
    3. flood and Throw in parallel - set around 150 lumen. This setting will be my most used for moving about the cave. I hope the combination of flood and fairly wide throw beam will give good coverage for all needs.
    4. Flood and Throw in parallel- set around 600 lumen. For large rooms and distant targets. This setting would be used only in short bursts. Taking into considerations losses in the optics I shouldn't need more then 1A of drive current to hit my #4 setting target. I could do this with a single externally dimming driver using multipole multithrow switch(s) and resisters.

    I don't often get the chance to do very deep pits, so a narrow beam is of little use to me. The farthest I need to project is typically 300 feet at the most and often well under 200 feet.

    Concerns and thoughts.

    I wonder if 2 additional settings would be handy. 1. A setting between #2 and #3 above for close in work. Something around 70 lumen for small passages. Probably a combination of Throw and Flood. 2. A stronger distance setting dedicating the full 1A of current to the Throw. Of course if I only intend setting #4 to light up the big rooms the flood may not have much effect at all. I could just drive the Throw in setting #4 and be done with it.
    I plan on mounting the batteries to the back of my helmet. I am looking at LiFePo batteries for a compromise in safety, energy density, and voltage. Running the batteries at 1/2C for only short bursts and at 1/8th C for extended times I think I can safely shrink wrap then rubberize the battery packs for safety and water resistance.
    Last edited by morow; 07-27-2009 at 10:35 AM. Reason: urm edit #2 to try and add in paragraphs...

  3. #123
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Pleeease use paragraphs, morow.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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  4. #124

    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    O, I like your idea of the down angle light for close in work and lighting up the area infront of your feet without having to swivil the entire headpiece. It would be nice to have a usable light without the need for an hinge to move it up and down. Less complex and it would probably be easier to keep the weight close to your head and limit how far out the light extends.

    In my use I normally swivel up/down my light when I need to look at something close. I don't think I often need to swivel the headlight to spot a distant object. So a flood pattern like you have works for looking forward and down.

  5. #125
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Wow, morow. So much more readable. I like the different LEDs (and optics) for different uses approach, and I'm slowly working on something like that myself. I take it that you and Tobias don't find that frosted/etched glass cuts down the intensity too much?

    Tobias, I've just filled in your survey. Thanks for an English version!
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  6. #126
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Hi all,
    last weekend we took some photos in Hirlatzhoehle to compare the new Testdevice_3 using a 3-LED aproach with the old Testdevice_2, which used 4-LED approach.
    You can see this at http://www.hirlatz.at under 'New comparison'.

    There is still the 'Old comparison' too, but we changed the layout a little bit: Now its on a dark background, because the photos are dark too.

    As you all know now, I'm not expert in machine-made bombproof cases. But I'm glad I that got what I got - handmade without machines!

    My fingers are for demonstrating the size of the device


    The dimensions of the case (without knob and cable-feedthrough) are 86mm x 56mm x 24mm. The wight together with 1m cable and connector is 140g.

    The real-world-test in the cave resulted in some minor modifications to be done - thats the reason why it takes one week to come up with this posting.

    The changes at the cirquitry are done now, so I can post the circuit diagram and description for everyones free use:
    http://www.bossert-inet.de/tobias/Ci...estdevice3.pdf

    The layout of the small motherboard will be changed too, so I'm posting it later.

    The case is a Hammond 1591 XXM, which I deformed termally with a selfmade molding press. I will have to change this molding press too, because I got problems with sealing the lenses.

    It is prooven now, that we can combine the Hall-Light and the light-up part of the Work-Light. When you compare the beamshots of 'Old testdevice 2' with 'New testdevice 3' you will see, that the old Hall-Light was a little bit better. But any Hall-Light is luxury anyhow, so I optimized the compromise towards a good light-up of Work-Light.

    Work-Light has two levels: low and high. Distance to forground doesn't change much with room size, therefore the diffuse part of Worklight is increased by 66% (150mA to 250mA) only from low to high. But distance to background changes strongly, thus the light-up part of Work-Light is increased by 300% (30mA to 125mA).

    Some cavers accompanying our photo session last weekend think, that it would be sufficiant to have Pause-Light, Work-Light low and high and Hall-Light. They proposed to leave away Shaft-Light completely.

    If so, the lamp would be reduced to 2 LED only.

    But I myself like to have a narrow thrower. This is not new idea of me, since I hand-made my first "Halogeny" in 1978, as you can see here:

    Fully regulated at that time!


    One caver proposed to switch to a TIR instead of the px glass lens. O.K. this will result in a higher lumen output, because all light not reaching the px lens is waste, that's true. TIR like Carclo 10199 (or 10048, the maximum size I could use in this small case) provide soft edges and a litle bit of spill, so you will recognize the surrounding too. He thinks, this would be better. But personally I think:
    • If the shaft is narrow, than any spill will annoy you
    • If the shaft is wide, than why not using the Hall-Light?


    As you can see, it's unpossible to satisfy everyone: That's life!


    Next to do?
    I will correct the motherboard and the molding press and than 'produce' about ten samples.

    Why?
    These ten devices will go to active cavers at cost price and without guarantee. I hope these cavers work as multiplicators. If so, than more and more cavers will demand such optimized light distribution - and at the end some professional manufacturer will produce commercially machined helmetlamps providing good pattern.

    All parts together cost about 150€ at the moment, cost of labor would be much much higher, because all is handmade.

    I hope you enjoy the beam comparisons, they are much more meaningfull than beamshots onto a white wall.

    Regards Tobias

  7. #127
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    All clear

    Now it works.

    The reason for this confusion was:
    We developed the site and tested it with Firefox 3.5.2 only. It worked correctly. Than I gave the link in post #126.
    Only some hours later we got the information that some text in the tables is black and some tables ar much broader than the frame when usin MS IE8. Oh MS!
    Than we looked for a work around under time pressure. Gottfried found it - but with these multible cut and past he copied the wrong table.
    Now it works fine - and we know, that we got the better browser with Firefox...


    Attention

    We got some confusion in the table for Scurion P4 at the 'New comparison'
    The pictures are not the right order at the moment.

    I will give the all clear when we have solved the problem.
    Hope it will be soon...


    Tobias
    Last edited by Tobias Bossert; 08-16-2009 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Now we fixed the error

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Hi from Spain :

    I haved read your post very slowly(my english is not good) but i understanded every each word. The planification is espectacular and i hope you will arrive to the perfect cavinglight. Here in Valencia (Spain) i am working with standart leds(seoul p4) regulation cards and Li Ion batts 18650. I wont emulate the carbide light i am looking for a new kind of light, but it is hard.

    Notice that, never the light movement has got this trubble since its creation by Edison. It's a new light world into our cave world. We are pioneer and selfcontructers, that is the esence of the right caving people.

    Nice to talk you i hope i can help you in the future, and cave togheter.

    Carlos Vergara Speleological Society La Senyera. www.espeleosister.com

  9. #129
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Bossert View Post
    All parts together cost about 150€ at the moment, cost of labor would be much much higher, because all is handmade.
    I'm struggling to figure out where that cost has gone to. Would you care to elaborate?

    Edit: I'm reminded of John Harrison, who went on inventing marine chronometers until he came up with a design that could be manufactured comparatively inexpensively.
    Last edited by TorchBoy; 08-17-2009 at 02:57 AM.
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  10. #130
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    I'm struggling to figure out where that cost has gone to. Would you care to elaborate?
    Hi TorchBoy
    if you are a prifessional than you are allowed to struggle:
    I calculated all costs on base of enduser ordering one part only from each type and having to pay tax (in Germany 19%) and postage.

    The most costy part is the rotary switch 6x2 with IP68: about 30 Euro
    Next is MC-E WD M with about 25 Euro
    Two XR-E WD R2 together about 15 Euro
    Motherboard about 12 Euro
    Glass lens about 8 Euro

    The sum of only these six parts is even 90 Euro!

    In case a manufacturer starts a serial production, these parts will be much cheaper at quantities of hundreds. For me the total sum of all parts are just below 150 Euro; I guess a manufacturer can get them all for half this price.

    But remember please:
    I definitly do not plan to produce this lamp commercially - so the costs don't matter for me. I'm happy being able to demonstrate that light distribution can be improved dramatically.

  11. #131
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Bossert View Post
    One caver proposed to switch to a TIR instead of the px glass lens. O.K. this will result in a higher lumen output, because all light not reaching the px lens is waste, that's true. TIR like Carclo 10199 (or 10048, the maximum size I could use in this small case) provide soft edges and a litle bit of spill, so you will recognize the surrounding too. He thinks, this would be better.
    O.K., let's look what we can do...

    I gathered some "narrow beam" optics and build a device to compare them under real world conditions. Here it is:

    That's no well designed model, it's simply a device to make some comparative tests.

    The optics are as follows:

    1. Spherical pcx glass lens 21mm (Anchor Optics AX77183), 20cm diam. at 1m (11°), scharp edge, rel. center brightness 100% (referenz, this is the lens of testdevice_3)
    2. Aspherical pcx acrylic lens 24mm (DX sku:4614), 30cm diam. at 1m (17°), scharp edge, rel. center brightness 52%
    3. Aspherical pcx glass lens 28mm (DX sku:5297), 49cm diam. at 1m (27°), scharp edge, rel. center brightness 29%
    4. TIR 20mm plain thight (Carclo 10199), subjective ~35cm diam. at 1m Entfernung (18° subj.; 8° spec.), rel. center brightness 82%
    5. TIR 20mm frosted narrow (Carclo 10200), subjektiv ~26cm diam. at 1m (15° subj.; 10° spec.), rel. center brightness 59%
    6. TIR 26mm clear (L2 OPTX1006), subjective ~20cm and ~40cm diam. at 1m (11° / 22° subj.; 20° spec.), rel. peak brightness 103%
    7. TIR 26mm diffused (L2? Ledtech LT-1452), subjective ~30cm diam. at 1m (17° subj.; 16° spec.), rel. peak brightness 82%
    8. TIR 26mm plain thight (Carclo 10048), subjective ~28cm diam. at 1m (16° subj.; 6° spec.), rel. peak brightness 117% (points) and 71% (middled)
    9. TIR 26mm frosted narrow (Carclo 10124), subjective ~28cm diam. at 1m (16° subj.; 11° spec.), rel. center brightness 81%


    Here you can see comparative beam shots from these 9 optics.


    The device doesn't look so nice, because all those optics were fixed with silicone. There is a severe reason for this:

    I first tried to use the original holders as intended. But it worked very bad.
    This was a new finding for me, since in past I always used the original holders to center the optics. But in past I always used frosted or rippled wide or at least medium - and whith those broad angled beams adjustment doesn't count so mutch.

    So I had to adjust every optic manually. I modified all holders to allow adjustment of at least 0.5mm in every direction. This helped dramatically.

    As an example I show you Carclo 10199/10425 without modification (above) and with manual adjustment (below):



    In this case the x/y-centering of LED and optic was already o.k. but the size of die images from TIR and from center lens was different. Therefore an adjustment in z-direction was necessary by about 0.6mm, that means I had to get the LED out of the optic by about 0.6mm, to acieve maching sizes of both images. This smothed the beam pattern but increased the spot fom about 10° to about 18°.

    Result: Carclo 10199 may be optimized for lambartian sources but gets problems with the primary lens of Cree XR-E.

    In principle, such corrections were necessary with all six TIR I used. Sometimes also adjustment in x/y-directions were neccessary too.

    I realized adjustment by putting the holders into a bed of silicone on the starboard. As you can see, with some optics I didn't found an optimum adjustment. Additionally the adjustment somewhat disappeared during drying.

    At the end I came to the conclusion:
    • You can use the original holders with medium or wide beam
    • You'll have to adjust the optic manually for narror beams


    With pure lens no such problems arise.

    Now this device with 9 optics is on the way to be tested in Hirlatzhoehle, I'm interested which one will be testers first choise...
    Last edited by Tobias Bossert; 08-29-2009 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Not the optics were bond but the holders only

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Hello Tobias,

    First i would like to felicitate all members in the forum that have participate activily in this thread.
    I am triyng to devolope a headlamp but using just 2 LED. and my perference go to MC-E Warm white.
    In the devolop 3 i do have some questions...
    Where do you put all the drives, with such a small box?
    Why dont you use just one drives and use mosfet as switch is less space and power lose in driver.
    I would like to help you in the electronics part if you want, need!
    I will include in my project a power meter with 5 LED to see how much power remains in the battery and a PWM for power control the drives with a microcontroller.

    Tim
    Last edited by Tim; 09-28-2009 at 08:41 AM. Reason: add LED used

  13. #133
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Hello,
    there is another lamp on market with much lower cost than Scurion.
    http://www.spelemat.com/ledlampe/
    Maybe you could make some comments.

  14. #134
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by bordali123 View Post
    Hello,
    there is another lamp on market with much lower cost than Scurion.
    http://www.spelemat.com/ledlampe/
    Maybe you could make some comments.
    Hi Bordali123,
    this lamp is new for me. There are not enough technical specifications on the web site, so I can't say anything about its features.

    • It has a modified standard case, making it cheaper for small series.
    • The user interface seems to be similar to that of Scurion.
    • The 'room light' is not as wide as Scurion - this should result in less power consumtion during worklight (may be similar to my testdevices).
    • The thrower looks similar to that of new Scurion K, I don't know the beam pattern at the moment.
    • As with Scurion you can combine flood and throw - but I don't know how good both sources will complemet each other (this isn't optimized with Scurion).
    • Both beams are concentric and thus there will be no effect 'light in the foregroud and light in the background' at same time without realizing a two-beam-pattern all time.


    At the moment I know nobody who owns this lamp, therefore it's unpossible for me to make meaningfull comments on it.

    We have to wait untill this lamp is tested by somebody...

    Regards
    Tobias

  15. #135
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I am triyng to devolope a headlamp but using just 2 LED.
    Hi Tim,
    as some testers in our club claim too, two LED would be sufficient and the shaft thrower ist not necessary. So you may be on the right way with your two LED project.

    my perference go to MC-E Warm white.
    I know many cavers prefering warm white instead of cool white (there is normal white in between). But this doesn't realy make any technical difference, since you can decide which color bin you put into work at the end of producing the sample - all other parts are totally independent of this decision.


    Where do you put all the drives, with such a small box?
    Please wait for some weeks, I'm developing a complete set of documentation of testdevice_3 at the moment in parallel with building ten samples of it. In this documentation you will see how I managed it to put 5 driverboards, my mainboard and all three optics inside this small box...


    Why dont you use just one drives and use mosfet as switch is less space and power lose in driver.
    Because it's easier for me to use five complete driverboards than to develop one universal type and switch (and split) its output to several LEDs. But you are completely right: This method is unuseable for a professional manufacturer producing high counts of devices.

    Thank you also for offering help. At the moment I definitly do not plan the become professional manufacturer and for my small count of samples, I found a practical way to realize it.

    I will include in my project a power meter with 5 LED to see how much power remains in the battery and a PWM for power control the drives with a microcontroller.
    This will work with lithium rechargeables only...

    Regards
    Tobias

  16. #136
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Bossert View Post
    Now this device with 9 optics is on the way to be tested in Hirlatzhoehle, I'm interested which one will be testers first choise...
    And now it's back again.

    The testers say that with a strong and not too wide Hall-Light indeed a Shaft-Thrower is unnecessary. But Hall-Light of 'testdevice_3' is additionally used as light-up for Work-Light and therefore needs to be wide enough (I took a frosted medium with more than 25° FWHM). This is optimum for combination with the diffuse part of Work-Light and good as Hall-Light too but too wide and too much spill for looking into deep pits.

    The testers disliked the Shaft-Thrower of my original 'testdevice_3' because it is too narrow (10° FW). That was the reason I gave them the device with 9 different throwers to test.

    Result:
    • All lense optics and 'plain tight' TIR are better than the 'frosted' ones, because frosted optics produce to much spill far apart from the center of the spot
    • Other than I predicted, the beam should not be narrow but more like medium (15 to 20° FW instead of 5 to 10° as I thought)
    • The thrower should provide a reasonably flat pattern inside the beam and than fall down at the edge rapidly but not with too strong edge on the other side


    They say, the beam shots I posted have no direct correlation to the subjective sensation when used in real cave. The sensation much more depends upon the spill and the pattern outside the 'half maximum angle', which you can't see on those beam shots.

    The first choice was #4, Carclo 10199 20mm optic plain tight for XR-E, displaced mechanically to align both images (from internal lens and from internal reflector).
    Estonishing... not the same as I thougt looking to the white wall in my cellar!

    I will follow this finding and replace the lens by that TIR for the 10 samples I'm producing now.

  17. #137
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim View Post
    I would like to help you in the electronics part if you want, need!
    Hi Tim,
    I'm producing 10 samples of modified testdevice_3 at the moment. This takes me much time, because I'm preparing in parallel complete documentation of the whole lamp. One part of that documentation is existing at the moment but naturally is still preleminary. I give you the actual version; please realize that this may change until publication!
    http://www.bossert-inet.de/tobias/Ci...Helmetlamp.pdf

    In this document you will find other links to the board layout too.

    The circuitry uses either Kennan_II (PT4105) or Kennan_II (AX2002), but for my application with dimmed output the old PT4105 is much better, as you can see here:

    http://www.bossert-inet.de/tobias/PT4105_vs_AX2002.pdf

    I still had left 17 Kennan_II and 3 Kennan_I, so I can produce all 10 samples with PT4105 boards. But afterwards these are gone! Since PT4105 is discontinued and I dislike AX2002 for that application, I will need an alternative.

    You offered to help me with my electronics and proposed to use one converter only and distribute the currents to the LEDs via MOSFETs.

    Do you know a DC/DC converter delivering an output voltage of 3.5 to 4V suitable for an output current range from 50mA to 2.5A? Minimum current is during Pause-Light, maximum is for Hall-Light.

    All circuitries I know so far provide poor efficiency when loaded with 2% of max current only!

    Regards Tobias

  18. #138
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Bossert View Post
    The testers disliked the Shaft-Thrower of my original 'testdevice_3' because it is too narrow (10° FW).
    That's interesting. I use a 5° aspherical lens-focused beam for shaft throwing because I've found 8-10° from a TIR optic is too wide to have really good throw. Maybe we mean different things by "shaft thrower"; I doubt our shafts are bigger. Maybe they weren't actually using it for shaft throwing.
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  19. #139
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    That's interesting. I use a 5° aspherical lens-focused beam for shaft throwing because I've found 8-10° from a TIR optic is too wide to have really good throw. Maybe we mean different things by "shaft thrower"; I doubt our shafts are bigger. Maybe they weren't actually using it for shaft throwing.
    I'm with you completely. That was the reason I used aspherical lens with testdevices 1, 2 and 3. Starting nearely focused so that the rectangular structure of the die was just gone (about 5°). Than after some criticism of the testers I defocused it so that there was just no increased intensity at the edge (about 8°).

    I think you are right, they didn't used it for really narrow deep shafts during testing indeed! It seems they tested it rather in big halls with infinitly high ceiling or in very large canyons, which you can find more oftenly in Hirlatzcave than narrow shafts.

    O.k., that will be up to the manufacturers to decide whether to implement a thrower at all and of which type if so. The most important thing of my work is the combination of flood and soft throw to a usefull worklight. I would be happy if some manufacturer would adopt this strategy, independently whether he adds a thrower or not.

  20. #140
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    I'm just wondering how efficient the aspherics are at capturing light from the LEDs - does much light miss the lens?

  21. #141
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by uk_caver View Post
    I'm just wondering how efficient the aspherics are at capturing light from the LEDs - does much light miss the lens?
    It depends...

    Especially XR-E is good for use with aspheric lens with respect to caching a high portion of the emitted light, because it has its own internal lens narrowing its initial beam to below 90° FWHM. Some PCX asheric lenses with a usefull diameter of e.g. 21mm have a back focal length of below 7mm. So really a very small portion of light is missing the lens.

    Nevertheless, with a good TIR you achieve higher efficiency but to the costs of more spill and not such a uniform beam.

  22. #142
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    There was a longer pause now ...
    but not for doing nothing!

    I added temerature control and overdischarge protection to 'testdevice 3' in the mean time. To get this all into the very smal casing I modified the circuitry: The rather big rotary switch able to carry the supply current must go and I replaced it by a tiny one for low level signals only. Also the mechanical arrangment had to be modified.
    The result is below.

    The AA cell is for size reference only.

    The light distribution of this 'device_3a' is exactly the same as with 'testdevice_3' discussed at last in this thread - the optics are just indentical.

    I handcrafted 10 samples of this headlamp for the cavers in our Austrian and German caving clubs.
    Here you can see, which versions were produced: http://www.bossert-inet.de/tobias/three_variants.pdf
    and here you find the very detailed manual for it:http://www.bossert-inet.de/tobias/usermanual.pdf
    The samples were delivered in spring of this year - and must be recalled immediately after that, because of thermal problems. That's all corrected now and these devices are used now continuously under real caving conditions.
    From this experience I learned, that a good headlamp needs an aluminium casing for cooling - not ABS as mine with an aluminium lid on the back side only.

    I had contact to some European manufacturers of headlamps. Most of them told me, that the market for cave specific headlamps is too small to start such a rather complex development. For very low numbers of pieces it is not economical to use a proprietory casing developed for this device only.

    One manufacturer asked me, whether I could modify the optical arrangement of the light sources to allow a standard rectangular aluminium casing. If so, he will develop the electronics and all other things needed and will offer such cave-proof headlamps commercially at a much lower price than common. Naturally with modern programmable digital switching, because rotary switches are too expensive and tend to be not really watertight.

    That's it, what I'm developing at the moment ...
    ... and it seems to be feasible!

    The fist prototypes achieve nearely the same light distribution as 'testdevice_3' - but all front windows lie in one plane, allowing a standard rectangular casing:

    This demontration sample has no electronics inside, it has a six-pole cable so each led can be driven externally. As you can imagin by those scratches, it even was tested inside a cave. For this purpose I developed a (not so compact) box with electronic inside: No problem for demonstrating feasibility only.

    Now I hope that this progression satisfies the needs of the manufacturers and one of them starts to develop an inexpensive headlamp optimized for huge caves on this basis.
    Last edited by Tobias Bossert; 10-13-2010 at 08:45 AM. Reason: mistyping in a link, the red color one

  23. #143
    Flashaholic* Barbarin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Hello Tobias,

    I could point you in the right direction...


    Javier
    Fiat lux

  24. #144
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    We made new comparisons in Hirlatz Cave (Austria)
    3rd Comparison
    4thd Comparison

    This time we compared the light output of 10 different headlamps:
    LedLampe IV
    Scurion P7 (discontinued)
    Scurion 1300
    Petzl DUO LED 14
    Petzl ULTRA
    Petzl ULTRA WIDE (comming soon)
    Device 3a (shown two posts above)
    Prototypes 1 to 3 (model 2 shown above)

    If maximum achievable output counts, there are three favorites delivering roughly about the same light output (1300 lumens): LedLampe IV, Scurion 1300, Prototype 3.
    The first one is quite cheap, the second one is quite expensive and the third one is just a laboratory model only.

    If optimum light pattern counts, Device 3a and Prototypes 2 & 3 outperform all others - but they are not achievable on the market.
    LedLampe IV has the best flexible superposition of narrow and wide beam parts of all headlamps on the market and additionally uses diffusers to avoid glaring. But it has no real thrower (narrow spot).
    Scurion 1300 is improved with respect to older Scurions, but still both patterns do not supplemet each other reasonably. In our opinion it makes no sense to superpose both, because the FWHM of both parts are too different.
    Petzl ULTRA WIDE is much better than Petzl ULTRA for walking in caves, but provides one pattern only - neither narrow thrower nor really wide diffuse light. This headlamp has six LEDs but uses them allways in parallel, just as one common light source.

    Here is a short description of those Prototypes:


    This device has only two independent light sources like LedLampe IV and all Scurion models. On the right is a XP-G with wide angle reflector, optical deviation and diffuser giving FWHM >90° (from 75° downwards to 15° upwards). On the left is a XP-G with a ripple medium TIR with deviation giving FWHM 28° (from 4° downwards to 24° upwards). Hall light is about 350 lumens. There is no shaft thrower.


    This device has three independent light sources like Device 3a. The wide diffuse beam on the right is identical to that of Prototyp 1. Also the medium beam on the left is similar to Prototype 1 but with FWHM 32° (from 6° downwards to 26° upwards). Hall light is about 450 lumens. The thrower for shaft light uses XP-E and 20mm TIR with FWHM 8° at 250 lumens.


    This device has three independent light sources like Device 3a. The wide diffuse beam on the right is identical to that of Prototyps 1 and 2. The medium beam on the left uses three XP-G, deviation and diffuser giving FWHM 28° (from 4° downwards to 24° upwards). Hall light is about 1300 lumens. The thrower for shaft light uses XP-G and 26mm TIR with FWHM 8° at 450 lumens.
    Last edited by Tobias Bossert; 09-19-2010 at 10:57 PM. Reason: Mistyping

  25. #145

    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Hi Tobias,

    You are doing a great job on this reasearch! I read this thread from begining til end and backwards. I started my own project in building a helmet lamp based on leds firstly for me, then if I stabilise the prototype for my buddys from our caving club.
    I managed to buld the electronics at least in test phase. Now i-m working on the electrical and mecanical part of the project. I use a standard aluminium enclosure box: http://esales.eldon.com/IDS/ArticleD...ProductID=4545 . It's rated IP65 but I think i can make it more whater tight. Further I have some questions on this part...
    1. Can you point me some rotary switches that you used. Especialy i am intrested in low power ones with at least IP66 protection rate. The IP68 would be the best. I searched the internet and i dont find any relevant results. I think rotary switches or rotary encoders are esential for this project in making the lamp easy to use in caving contitions when ur hands are mosly covered with dirty gloves. I tell you about the rotary encoders because I managed to program some simple pic microcontrollers (PIC12F683) in order to do the digital switching feature and you can use this encoders or push buttons as input.
    2. Regarding battery box my first option would be the petzl duo's. You can order it separatly i didnt asked for price yet. Do you have other options?

    Thanks in advance,

    Geza.

  26. #146
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by gheza1976 View Post
    ... I use a standard aluminium enclosure box: http://esales.eldon.com/IDS/ArticleD...ProductID=4545 . It's rated IP65 but I think i can make it more whater tight. Further I have some questions on this part...
    I used Hammond 1550 WP http://www.hammondmfg.com/1550W.htm which is IP66 with standard gasket and upgradable to IP68 with a separate gasket.

    1. Can you point me some rotary switches that you used. Especialy i am intrested in low power ones with at least IP66 protection rate. The IP68 would be the best. I searched the internet and i dont find any relevant results. I think rotary switches or rotary encoders are esential for this project in making the lamp easy to use in caving contitions when ur hands are mosly covered with dirty gloves. I tell you about the rotary encoders because I managed to program some simple pic microcontrollers (PIC12F683) in order to do the digital switching feature and you can use this encoders or push buttons as input.
    I used Marquardt 9037, which is IP66, not upgradable.

    The Swiss manufacturer TechTonique http://www.spelemat.com/ledlampe/ has developed a new "LedLampe V", which is a improved commercial version of my prototype 3. This headlamp will be availlable in August 2011. Comparable to "LedLampe IV" this modell is controlled by a toggle switch (moment - off - moment) and is IP68.

    2. Regarding battery box my first option would be the petzl duo's. You can order it separatly i didnt asked for price yet. Do you have other options?
    I myself and most of my fiends use a NiMH battery for model flights 4,8V 3,7Ah wrapped in heatshrinking sleve http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/2...KUPACK-3700MAH and worn in the chest pocket of the overall. TechTonique offers the yellow Petzl Duo battery case, but the contacts of this box are not so good I think and four AA cells are not strong enough to support up to 17W. For LiIon I know no usefull box (you can't buy the box of Scurion separately); TechTonique offers the Battery packs of Petzl Ultra at a special rate.

  27. #147

    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Thank you for the quick replay and the useful information about the casing, switches and battery.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias Bossert View Post
    The Swiss manufacturer TechTonique http://www.spelemat.com/ledlampe/ has developed a new "LedLampe V", which is a improved commercial version of my prototype 3. This headlamp will be availlable in August 2011. Comparable to "LedLampe IV" this modell is controlled by a toggle switch (moment - off - moment) and is IP68.
    Thats a great news! For that price and with functionality developed by you i think it will be the best choice to buy.
    Electronics and caving are my hobbys so self made devices have more like a spiritual value. Thats why i will continue the development.
    I'm anxious to see the new LedLampe model and maybe test it too. I hope they will provide soon the long pomised opensource code for programming the microprocessor of the lamp.

  28. #148

    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Any news on Ledlampe V which will be manufactured based on your prototype 3? On their site is stil not available.

  29. #149
    Flashaholic Tobias Bossert's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacement of carbide lamps by LED lamps

    Quote Originally Posted by gheza1976 View Post
    Any news on Ledlampe V which will be manufactured based on your prototype 3? On their site is stil not available.
    There is a note at the bottom of the French homepage of the manufacturer:

    "Pour info
    Afin de répondre efficacement à la demande croissante et parvenir à réduire les délais de livraison, une nouvelle structure de production est en création. Basée en Valais/Suisse, elle sera opérationnelle courant septembre 2011. C'est également là que sera produite la nouvelle LedLampe V. D’ici là, nous vous remercions d'ores et déjà de votre indulgence !"

    Neither on the English nor on the German page are comparable notes.

    Translation:

    "For information
    Our new production plant is under construction in Valais / Switzerland. We hope we could satisfy an increasing request efficiently and reduce delivery time in future. The facility will start up some time in September 2011. Than we will sart production of new LedLampe V. In the mean time we apologize for any inconvenience!"

    There seem some delay setting up the new production plant, it is end of November now.

    A friend called them for ordering a lamp and was told that the delivery will start in January now.

    I'm very interested to get a first sample of LedLampe V in my hands for testing.

    Tobias

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