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Thread: Have Emerson lost the plot?

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    Flashaholic strideredc's Avatar
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    Sick2 Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Just wanted to see what you guys (and girls) think about Emerson knives replacing the non locking liner with stainless steel instead of using titanium?

    For me I think it’s a bad practice and cheapens a good brand.

    I have been using Emerson knives for ages and have liked the styles and the build and am really put off with the thought of a half steel and half ti handle.

    The reason for this is the rising cost of ti, I would say just put up the cost?

    I wonder how much the side liner of an Emerson knife ‘REALY’ costs $5, $10, I would say less???

    I was going to post this on USN and then remembered if I did I would be banned in 2 seconds flat for deviating from the status quo…

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* RA40's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    I've got a stainless liner from another maker. I forget what the steel actually is, however, it is quite robust. Having been made in the later 80's, it is still locking at a nice point. The 6-4 Ti I use, after a long service life, I peen the lock to adjust the engagement point. Both these knives have seen heavy use though.
    If I had a choice, I'd prefer Ti.

    If the buyer is willing to offset the additional materials cost, I don't see why it can't be made for all Ti.
    Mike

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    I hvent bought any Emersons.

    Main reason is that on a right handed knife, they grind a left hand chisel grind.

    Emailed them a number of times to see if they would consider doing the grinds on the right hand side, and the only responce I got ( finally after too many attempts) was that it was for cosmetic reasons as that is the side photo's are taken on

    Chisel grinds should be on the "right hand side" for a right handed knife.

    Any company that wont talk openly to the end line user aren't worth it IMHO.

    they should take a leaf out of Spyderco's book, on how to treat customers.

    Unanswered emails is just plain rude, I emailed them on other topics and Ideas, and they just went unanswered.

    On the Ti scale issue, Why not charge more? there are still people willing to buy them ( supprisingly to me)

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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Ti costs have skyrocketed to the point where it's becoming cost prohibitive for a company like EKI or Benchmade can buy sufficient quanities to make the large number of knives offered with Ti.

    I'm not a huge fan of Emerson's stuff, but do own a CQC-13.

    Benchmade's Dejavoo uses a 1/2 Ti/SS set-up.

    I wonder who the Ti shortage will eventually effect Chris Reeve (Sebenza) or Mission Knives, down the line...

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    Flashaholic* Chronos's Avatar
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    Popcorn Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Is there a major difference functionally on a production knife between Ti and SS? I honestly don't know, but I would doubt it (semi-educated guess).

    Now on a custom or semi-custom, I'd think the knifemaker could charge a premium for the Ti linerlock.

    Knowing just a little about Emerson, it seems that they are sure this change will not cause any structural integrity issues in their knives. Given their reputation I'd tend to agree with them unless proven otherwise.

    Didn't this change go into effect earlier in 2007? If it did, I'd think we'd have heard if this caused any structural issues by now.
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    Flashaholic strideredc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    ‘Emailed them a number of times to see if they would consider doing the grinds on the right hand side, and the only response I got ( finally after too many attempts) was that it was for cosmetic reasons as that is the side photo's are taken on

    Really, that’s crazy. I did have a cqc7 and I liked the knife but I couldn’t get on with the grind at all and it’s defiantly (imho) on the wrong side!


    ‘I wonder who the Ti shortage will eventually effect Chris Reeve (Sebenza) or Mission Knives, down the line...’

    If this is the true reason then it will be interesting to see what happens???


    ‘Knowing just a little about Emerson, it seems that they are sure this change will not cause any structural integrity issues in their knives. Given their reputation I'd tend to agree with them unless proven otherwise.’

    I bet you are 100% right and in fact ss is probably stronger than ti in this application. One thing is that is not as rust resistant as ti. This will only matter in the extreme end use of the knife and who (being totally honest) buys a $200 knife and leaves it in a bucket of salt water?

    My point was I thought it was somehow cheapening the brand and what used to be ‘the best materials they could offer’ are now being replaced by a cheaper alternative

    Also I just looked at the website and saw they are still saying ti and not ti/ss?

    Handles
    Black G-10 epoxy / glass laminate
    Liners
    Aerospace grade Titanium
    Blade
    154 CM
    Finish
    Black Finish
    Grind
    Conventional V Grind

    Overall Length
    9.5
    Blade Length
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    Blade Thickness
    .125 in.
    Hardness
    57-59 RC

  7. #7
    Flashaholic* HoopleHead's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    thats why you should just go for the HD-7!

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    Flashaholic* RA40's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    I haven't bought Ti in a long time having stocked up for my uses. Good deals at the time was ~$11 a pound, now it is 5-6X last I heard. For as many knives that come off the production line, that will be a significant increase.

    Yes, the chisel grind was done for cosmetics as many of my knife making buddies have stated in the past. Simply, the logo doesn't seem to appeal to many when on the flat side. When you buy a custom, it's no big deal though. Personally that blade shape aesthetically looks fine in a traditional bevel as done for centuries by the Japanese sword makers.
    Mike

  9. #9

    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    This is hardly the first time, and likely not the last, that Emerson has made decisions about their knife designs based on either economics or aesthetics. Personally, I'm a lot more concerned about functionality, but maybe that's just me.
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    Flashaholic* RedLed's Avatar
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    Default Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!

    I have a real problem with them still advertising the titanium liners. This is totally unethical. People have a right to know they are not paying for titanium.

    Also, it took them almost a year to start to tell only some people in the knife comunity.

    I no longer trust Emerson. This is lying about the materials of your product.

    I agree that if you ever posted this on USN, It would explode!

    I will not buy anymore Emerson knives. I feel bad because I used to love them.

    Very sneaky, I wonder if the people he deals with in the military community would like to know what he is doing? Just look what he is doing to people serving in the US armed forces, they are being ripped off.

    This will go down bigger than what Mick Strider lied about.
    Last edited by RedLed; 01-14-2008 at 07:23 AM.

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    Flashaholic* RedLed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Also, I have a problem with them telling us tanium costs too much for his his knife liners that soldiers lives may depend on, then he has the nerve to make guitar picks out of it. Guitar picks?

    And guitars? Come on...
    Last edited by RedLed; 01-14-2008 at 07:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Ti is getting more expensive, lately. That means E. Emerson will have to either increase the prices of his knives, or take a smaller cut. '

    I don't see any problem with using stainless for liners. The Spyderco Military uses stainless liners and (some older models only have a liner on one side!) and there are some that have been in service for 10+ years without fail. Don't think the change from Ti to SS means much besides bling factor and added corrosion resistance... which I've yet to have a problem with.

    There are definitely a few EKI's ground on both sides. The CQC Snubby, for one. Really nice, solid knife, with excellent ergos. It's on my list...
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    personally I am happy he is switching I keep having problems with my TI locks, like sticking so bad you need you need a butter knife to pry it back or after just getting it back from service the lock travels over 75% of the back of the blade and that only took two weeks of use. I never had any problems like this with a SS liner.

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    *Flashaholic* carrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    The EKI lock-side liner is still Ti.

    I have no problems with the only Ti lock I have. The Sebenza's lock doesn't have any galling problems at all.
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    I do not know Ernest at all...
    Replacing Ti with SS is no big deal to me, as the weight difference is slight, the corrosion resistance is no sweat, and the 'thrill" of Ti is not an issue to me.

    Ti is in short supply, and SS is easier to machine, grind, drill, mill etc.
    His reasoning? No idea...

    I guess what he should have done, is tell his customers what he decided to do, and even drop the price a teeny amount, if only to please...

    And yes, Spyderco has the best customer relations around...
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Why would titanium be better? Don't titanium liners have galling problems?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Not if they're made right.
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    I had a Super Commander made in 2007. Took it for camping and for 3 days it was exposed to the elements. I thought nothing of it until I returned home and found slight rusting on one side of the liner. Couldn't understand it as at the time of purchase I thought as always that it was Ti.

    Turns out SS if exposed to the elements could rust after all. I've mostly cleaned it up with some WD40 as I stripped it apart but yes it was disappointing to me that no where was my Super Commander listed as having SS. Not terribly upset but definitely not satisfying.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    Ok, for some reason, I must have missed this, but what basically seems to be going on is that Emerson has started using stainless steel for at the least, one side of the liners.
    Without actually telling anybody or updating his website. Does that seem right?

    One wonders if he dropped his prices since he's now using a cheaper material... Somehow... I think not.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    To me, too much of emerson is marketing, and not use and ergo's. Just my opinion, but they seem to develop a cult of personality that shields users from actually deciding that someone else makes better, more comfortable, more useful knives.

  21. #21
    Flashaholic strideredc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLed View Post
    I have a real problem with them still advertising the titanium liners. This is totally unethical. People have a right to know they are not paying for titanium.

    Also, it took them almost a year to start to tell only some people in the knife comunity.

    I no longer trust Emerson. This is lying about the materials of your product.

    I agree that if you ever posted this on USN, It would explode!

    I will not buy anymore Emerson knives. I feel bad because I used to love them.

    Very sneaky, I wonder if the people he deals with in the military community would like to know what he is doing? Just look what he is doing to people serving in the US armed forces, they are being ripped off.


    This will go down bigger than what Mick Strider lied about.
    Exactly, I would say this is false advertising… shame on you mr Emerson!

    I don’t understand why anyone ‘blindly’ follows any company, doesn’t make sense to me. I find it a bit sad

    Which one of the strider lies are you talking about?

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* Stillphoto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ernest Emerson has some explaining to do!

    Posted by Mr. Emerson on another forum:

    Dear Members,

    I'm going to make an announcement on our website this week but I felt I should let you know first. I have to change every description of every knifeand it will take me a couple of days.


    Due to the rising cost of Titanium (It has tripled in price) we have switched to using a 300 series stainless steel liner on the detent side of our production knives. We are using it only on the detent, (top side) and not on the spring side, (liner lock) side. I have been considering using stainless steel for this side over the last year and we have done extensive testing and prototyping of the knives to satisfy our need to know that it would work correctly in use and maintain the integrity of our knives. As a result, we our totally satisfied with the performance of the steel for the detent side. Our first use was on the recent run of Karambits that we finished.

    My custom knives will still feature the full titanium (both sides) liner construction.

    I just wanted you to know first, since you are the most discerning customers with the most extensive knowledge of my knives.

    Special runs and special edition knives will be identified by us as to whether or not they have full titanium liners.

    My Best Regards,

    Ernest R. Emerson


    Hopefully that will help explain things better.
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    It bugs me when companies do what Emerson did. My Cottonelle toilet paper used to be a really good product. In the last few years it's gone from just regular toilet paper to double roll (and it's the same size as before), now to triple roll (and still the same size)and to top it all off it got thinner too - they cut down the width of the roll and it looks like it doesn't fit on the paper holder anymore. I've got a house full of stuff that's been cut down in size or quality to keep the package price the same as before.

    Although I understand why Emerson made the change he did I, if I were him, would have simply mentioned it as the change took place (or before) and avoided this controversy, particularly amongst the folks here who really know, and are happy to pay for, the better materials. To have not said something looks sneaky.


    Be glad he didn't send his manufacturing to China like so many others have.

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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    I'm just going to say this was edited for my own reasons. Ernie makes good knives but I really think he needs to update his web site ads to be totally clear on what metal is being used in the liners. If you are expecting to get an expensive Titanium liner than you should get Titanium and not stainless steel. Simple as that.
    Last edited by matrixshaman; 01-15-2008 at 12:33 PM.
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    Flashaholic* jbosman1013's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    we should rename this the emerson bashing thread

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    Flashaholic strideredc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have Emerson lost the plot?

    ''Have Emerson lost the plot?'' I think that’s a good bashing title, don’t you? No editing needed.

    On a serious note, I don’t think anyone has said anything that isn’t true. If something needs a bashing and no one is going over the top and no one is that I can see, then bash away.

    What stilphoto has posted in my mind makes a worse case for Mr emerson imho…


    Dear Members,

    I'm going to make an announcement on our website this week but I felt I should let you know first. I have to change every description of every knife and it will take me a couple of days. When was this?
    05-13-2007, 05:13 AM nothing has changed????? thats getting on for 8 months

    Due to the rising cost of Titanium (It has tripled in price) we have switched to using a 300 series stainless steel liner on the detent side of our production knives. We are using it only on the detent, (top side) and not on the spring side, (liner lock) side. I have been considering using stainless steel for this side over the last year and we have done extensive testing and prototyping of the knives to satisfy our need to know that it would work correctly in use and maintain the integrity of our knives. As a result, we our totally satisfied with the performance of the steel for the detent side. Our first use was on the recent run of Karambits that we finished.

    My custom knives will still feature the full titanium (both sides) liner construction. Good enough for custom but not the standard?

    I just wanted you to know first, since you are the most discerning customers with the most extensive knowledge of my knives. Are all the other customers stupid, un-discerning and dont deserve to know?

    Special runs and special edition knives will be identified by us as to whether or not they have full titanium liners.

    My Best Regards,

    Ernest R.Emerson



    The fact that the website hasn’t been changed in this timeframe is realy bad whatever and however ANYONE looks at it!

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* RedLed's Avatar
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    Default I think is is over for EKI as we know it!

    If it was not over for Emereon he would not have to start making the guitars, and the picks. All crap!

    Also, he lied!

  28. #28
    Flashaholic* mossyoak's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLed View Post
    If it was not over for Emereon he would not have to start making the guitars, and the picks. All crap!

    Also, he lied!
    ok we get it, you hate Mick, and now you dont like Ernie either, apparently you feel *compelled* to let us know when any good knife maker makes a mistake. thanks. now, i dont suppose that you have EVER made a mistake?
    Last edited by mossyoak; 01-16-2008 at 04:47 AM.
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  29. #29
    Flashaholic* RedLed's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!

    Quote Originally Posted by mossyoak View Post
    ok we get it, you hate Mick, and now you dont like Ernie either, apparently you feel *compelled* to let us know when any good knife maker makes a mistake. thanks. now, i dont suppose that you have EVER made a mistake?
    No, you are wrong. I own, carry and enjoy knives from both makers. The problem I have is how they lie. Mick has told lies about military service and Emerson needs to clean up his act with his advertising.

    Mr. Oak, if I may, is telling a lie a mistake?
    Last edited by RedLed; 01-16-2008 at 05:10 AM.

  30. #30
    Flashaholic* Stillphoto's Avatar
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    Default Re: I think is is over for EKI as we know it!

    Last I checked, this thread had nothing to do with Mick, and should stay that way.

    Just speaking for myself here, but I for one don't know that life would have changed much had my liner ended up being SS over Ti.

    As far as his venture into guitars goes - So what, he has another hobby. I'm pretty sure the guitar business is not being built up to be a major profit center. It's a ground level entry, just like when he started with knives.

    At the end of the day, if someone has a problem with the ethics of a company, then simple - don't support / carry it. If you still want to carry it, then come to terms with it.
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