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Thread: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

  1. #91
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Handlobraesing,

    OK, we are making progress here...

    So far your crap cells have 0 mAh capacity after a normal charge and a 500 mA discharge, and 0 mAh capacity after a 0.1C charge and 0.2C discharge.

    Yet you claim that under a 250 mA constant load they work fine.

    It's time to put them in a direct drive light, turn it on and let it run for around 4 hours. Hopefully you have a single cell light. If you need to run a pair of cells, you will have to watch it to make sure you don't ruin your crap cells further by reverse charging.

    At the end of this, you will need to jump start the cells to get them to have enough voltage to start the C9000. Once you get the voltage of the cell up to where the C9000 recognizes it, you can run another charge/discharge and see if you get past 0 mAh.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  2. #92

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Hello Handlobraesing,

    OK, we are making progress here...

    So far your crap cells have 0 mAh capacity after a normal charge and a 500 mA discharge, and 0 mAh capacity after a 0.1C charge and 0.2C discharge.

    Yet you claim that under a 250 mA constant load they work fine.

    It's time to put them in a direct drive light, turn it on and let it run for around 4 hours. Hopefully you have a single cell light. If you need to run a pair of cells, you will have to watch it to make sure you don't ruin your crap cells further by reverse charging.

    At the end of this, you will need to jump start the cells to get them to have enough voltage to start the C9000. Once you get the voltage of the cell up to where the C9000 recognizes it, you can run another charge/discharge and see if you get past 0 mAh.

    Tom
    That's basically what I'm saying... because it only samples voltage under 1A load, it terminates prematurely, so it's not a useful discharge device to actually get say... discharge to 0.9v at 0.1A.

  3. #93
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Handlobraesing,

    Actually, because of the pulsed discharge, it give slightly optimistic results compared to constant current discharging...

    If you would like to do a comparison, you will need to pick up a CBA from West Mountain Radio, and a couple of new Alkaline AA cells. You will have to take some time and adjust the calibration of the CBA so that it is accurate at low current levels, then discharge a cell on the CBA at 100 mA with a discharge limit set to 0.9 volts, and also discharge another cell on the C9000 at 100 mA. You will find that the C9000 will give a slightly higher capacity.

    When you move on from crap cells to healthy cells, what are you finding?

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  4. #94
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    Question Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I just got a C9000 last week and am in the middle of running a couple break in cycles on some new Eneloop AAA & AA and old Rayocac NiMH. When that is done which mode should I use get the most accurate display of their capacities? I also have some really old AA NiCad's with the name Millennium on them but no current capacity listed. I had intended to see what performance they would give or attempt to revive them. Should I just toss them in trash?

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by pobox1475 View Post
    I just got a C9000 last week and am in the middle of running a couple break in cycles on some new Eneloop AAA & AA and old Rayocac NiMH. When that is done which mode should I use get the most accurate display of their capacities?
    It depends on what you want to measure.

    I'd say you will get the most accurate display of their capacities if you measure it in the way that corresponds most closely to how the cells will normally be used.

    You should discharge the cells and then charge them on whichever charger and using whichever mode you normally plan to use. After this, rest them for a few hours or a day, and then discharge them on the C9000 using the discharge current that again most closely resembles your intended use. Conservatively you would probably use the highest 1 amp setting.

    This procedure will tell you what you can actually expect from the cells (rather than a theoretical maximum that you will never likely see). You can compare this with the capacity reported on the break-in charge and see what the difference is. I have also found it interesting to charge on different chargers and discharge on the C9000 to see which chargers do best at supplying a full charge.
    Last edited by Mr Happy; 06-02-2008 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Pobox,

    At the end of the Break-In cycle, the capacity you see should come close to matching the labeled capacity of the cell.

    With you NiCd cells, charge them at 1000 mA and discharge them at 500 mA and see what you get. If you think there is hope for them, they will also benefit from a Break-In cycle.

    I might add that it is better to recycle than to toss in the trash...

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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    Shrug Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I am trying to keep it as simple as possible and hopefully match the cells in the process. From what you stated I can use the reading at the end of Break In to get an idea. I thought I might have to run a Refresh & Analyze or Cycle to get it.
    I might add that it is better to recycle than to toss in the trash...
    Where can I do this and what kind of cell will they accept?

  8. #98
    *Flashaholic* Mr Happy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by pobox1475 View Post
    I am trying to keep it as simple as possible and hopefully match the cells in the process. From what you stated I can use the reading at the end of Break In to get an idea.
    Yes, you can. I have found the capacities reported by the break-in cycle to be quite repeatable and consistent. If one cell comes up low the first time round it will come up low the next time you test it too.

  9. #99
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Pobox,

    As far as recycling goes, here are some places that may take your cells.

    There are a couple of ways to evaluate cells. One is to compare their capacity according to what is listed on the label. Another is to check them under the same loads you will be using them under. If you happen to know that your lights draw 1000 mA, then you can check your cells under a 1000 mA load.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  10. #100

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Hello Handlobraesing,

    Actually, because of the pulsed discharge, it give slightly optimistic results compared to constant current discharging...
    That negates the theory that its method is IEC standard though. A standard is about running tests under same conditions and not about making the numbers look good.

    So for a 2500mA cell, discharge current should be 500mA to 0.9v not an alternation of 1 second on and 1 second off at 1A as done by MH-C9000.

    Alternating on 1 minute cycle instead would give the same time average current too, but I don't buy alternating between 1 minute at 1A and 1 minute at 0A as true 500mA.

    I think even 0.5Hz is way too slow to claim the average as the true current. It's slower than car turn signals.




    When you move on from crap cells to healthy cells, what are you finding?
    Tom
    Then it can measure capacity just fine, however it doesn't serve its true purpose. Let's say you have a 2.5Ah cell that provides service at 100mA level. You couldn't care less about the voltage the cell can sustain at 1A.

    If your purpose is to analyze the amount of usable capacity loss under the same rate found during service, MH-C9000 can falsely reject a cell as 0mAh because it can't hold >0.9v at 1A load.

  11. #101
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I think that 1 A is a stroll in the park for a NiMH cell. If a cell can only manage 100 mA without voltage loss, then it is so totally wrecked that there is no real point trying to use it. You won't be able to charge it at currents much above 100 mA either without it getting too hot.

    You can sometimes revive sick patients, but trying to revive corpses is more than most people consider worthwhile.
    Last edited by Mr Happy; 06-03-2008 at 12:39 AM.

  12. #102
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Lots of good info here in this thread.


    _

  13. #103

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Happy View Post
    I think that 1 A is a stroll in the park for a NiMH cell. If a cell can only manage 100 mA without voltage loss, then it is so totally wrecked that there is no real point trying to use it. You won't be able to charge it at currents much above 100 mA either without it getting too hot.

    You can sometimes revive sick patients, but trying to revive corpses is more than most people consider worthwhile.
    Remember MH-C9000 isn't just for AAs. It can do AAAs as well and since the highest capacity that's available today is 1Ah, a minimum discharge rate of 1C is rather harsh. If you're testing some 600mAh cells, you're loading them at 1.67C minimum.

  14. #104

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Happy View Post
    I think that 1 A is a stroll in the park for a NiMH cell. If a cell can only manage 100 mA without voltage loss, then it is so totally wrecked that there is no real point trying to use it. You won't be able to charge it at currents much above 100 mA either without it getting too hot.

    You can sometimes revive sick patients, but trying to revive corpses is more than most people consider worthwhile.
    While many/most decide that a cell is dead below 80% of original capacity, I see no harm in using older below 80% cells in low current apps. For instance, I use such cells in my wireless mouse which clearly uses very little current. They still last a long time, more than a week. Now clearly I am careful when charging them, always present and never during a night or while away.

    So while in general 1A is not a huge load, for older cells that I still want to use it may not work well, as pointed out. Still I don't mind so long as the charger keeps charging them (which it does). The actual/precise capacity is not important. I just have several spares on standby.

    Just wanted to point out there are plenty of apps using well below 1A for which we cannot get accurate capacity readings.

  15. #105

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    For true 100mA ish loading, I use a battery holder and a 10 ohm resistor and log the voltage over time on a software.

    The only thing that's important is knowing the precise value of your resistor (it doesn't matter if it's 9.23 or 10.00 as long as you know it) and using ohm's law, you can calculate Ah and Wh.

    Since it's actually not that important to precisely maintain 100mA (i.e. 80 to 120mA variation won't affect the capacity much) constant resistance approach works ok.

    Unfortunately, the process is a pain in the butt without having a program that will automatically do the integration number crunching.

  16. #106
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Rose View Post
    As a test to see how much power is used by the C9000, I currently have it hooked up to an energy meter to see how much power it uses for a 1A discharge cycle followed by a break-in cycle.
    In case anyone is curious, the test cycles noted above that I was monitoring with the power meter have completed.

    Over the 46 hour period the MH-C9000 used a whopping 0.10 kWh of electricity. That's about half a cent worth of electricity in my area.

  17. #107

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Rose View Post
    In case anyone is curious, the test cycles noted above that I was monitoring with the power meter have completed.

    Over the 46 hour period the MH-C9000 used a whopping 0.10 kWh of electricity. That's about half a cent worth of electricity in my area.
    Just don't bother. Consider any one of many 10A tools, heating elements and air conditioners. They use 10A * 120V about 1kW
    So running a tool in a garage, air conditioning, etc. for one hour consumers a full kWh in a single hour. Our chargers by comparison are toys.

  18. #108
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Rose View Post
    Over the 46 hour period the MH-C9000 used a whopping 0.10 kWh of electricity. That's about half a cent worth of electricity in my area.
    That's nice to know. I was interested in that result because the rating plate on my C9000 power brick suggests it can consume up to 100 W or so. If it actually used that much power for 40 hours it would add up to 4 kWh. Fortunately it appears that the 100 W is the peak capacity and not the normal load.

  19. #109
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by bob_ninja View Post
    Just don't bother. Consider any one of many 10A tools, heating elements and air conditioners. They use 10A * 120V about 1kW
    So running a tool in a garage, air conditioning, etc. for one hour consumers a full kWh in a single hour. Our chargers by comparison are toys.
    I was just curious as I noticed a bit of a spike in electricity usage over my previous billing cycle and wondered if my chargeathons might have been the culprits.

  20. #110
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Happy View Post
    That's nice to know. I was interested in that result because the rating plate on my C9000 power brick suggests it can consume up to 100 W or so. If it actually used that much power for 40 hours it would add up to 4 kWh. Fortunately it appears that the 100 W is the peak capacity and not the normal load.
    The power meter showed a maximum load of 28 W and 0.23 A. Normal load appears to be 2 W and 0.2 A during the break-in.

  21. #111
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Handlobraesing,

    I just wanted to put your crap cell into perspective...

    I check new batches of alkaline cells that I pick up to make sure the Alkaline Shoot Out stays current. I just picked up some new cells, so I ran some tests on them.

    Discharging at a constant 500 mA on the CBA, I ended up with around 1460 mAh. Discharging at 500 mA on the C9000, I ended up with around 1550 mAh.

    Next I placed both cells in the C9000 and ran a discharge at 100 mA. The cell that had been discharged under a constant current ran for 305 minuts, and the other cell ran for 425 minutes.

    I let the cells recover for a while then ran another 100 mA discharge on the C9000. The "CBA" cell ran for 59 minutes, and the other cell ran for 42 minutes.

    I then did another discharge on the C9000 at 100 mA with the same cells. The "CBA" cell ran for 14 minutes and the other cell ran for 12 minutes.

    Finally, I ran one more discharge at 100 mA. The "CBA" cell ran for 7 minutes and the other cell ran for 4 minutes.

    Your crap cell that registeres 0 mAh under a 100 mA load is worst than an alkaline cell after it has been discharged 5 times.

    You are correct in that the IEC standard calls for constant current charging and discharging. Battery manufacturers don't use C9000 units to rate their batteries. However, in the consumer end of things, the C9000 comes closer to doing an IEC test than any other charger available. I don't think this function is avaliable on the hobby chargers either. At any rate my Schulze charger doesn't have a setting for running an IEC charge/discharge.

    You are forgetting that NiMh cells are rated under constant current conditions. They are much more robust under pulse loads. This includes AAA cells.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  22. #112
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Tom, do those times for the C9000 need to be multiplied by 0.9 to give an accurate capacity? Or rather, 0.9 duty cycle x 0.1 amps / 60 minutes?
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  23. #113
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Ian,

    That is correct. While the mAh display of the C9000 is correct, to figure it from the time displayed requires multiplying the time by 0.9, then multiplying that by the current used.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  24. #114

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    SF. I just ran down a UltraLast brand alkaline on MH-C9000 @ "500mA" setting and I got 1406mAh.

  25. #115
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Handlobraesing,

    OK, now let the cell recover for a few minutes and do another discharge on it using 100 mA as the discharge current.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  26. #116

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Hello Handlobraesing,

    OK, now let the cell recover for a few minutes and do another discharge on it using 100 mA as the discharge current.

    Tom
    Tom,

    I got ~1,100mAh @ 100mA setting on a brand new Duracell standard coppertop alkaline, which discharges at "100mA" to "0.9v". If it's anything like Energizer, I should be getting at least 2,000mAh as that's the 1.0v cut off spec at 100mA.

    http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/E91.pdf

    Could you repeat the experiment at 100mA on an alkaline and see if you get a completely different result?

  27. #117

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I have a generic brand new alkaline on 3.0 ohm constant resistance discharge. I'll see what the available capacity is to 1.0, 0.9 and 0.8v by integration...

    ULTRALAST brand regular alkaline:
    Ta = 23°C
    method: continuous integration
    load = 3.0 ohm precision resistor

    Istart = 0.45A Iend = 0.27A

    Vterm, Amp-hr, watt-hr
    0.8v 1.405 1.457
    0.9v 1.244 1.316
    1.0v 0.733 0.832
    1.1v 0.410 0.490
    Energizer... w/ 2013 exp date
    0.8 1.346 1.412
    0.9 1.245 1.325
    1.0 0.898 0.992
    1.1 0.415 0.485
    Last edited by Handlobraesing; 06-06-2008 at 02:07 PM.

  28. #118
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Handlobraesing,

    I grabbed a couple of the same brand of cells and ran discharges at 100 mA. I got 2038 mAh from one cell, and 1994 mAh from the other one.

    Looking at the Energizer data, they advertise around 2500 mAh when discharging at 100 mA down to 0.8 volts.

    I took the lower of the two cells and discharged it at 100 mA on the CBA down to 0.8 volts. The cell had rested for a few hours, so this may not be totally representative. However, I ended up with an additional 420 mAh. Now I am getting reasonably close to what the Energizer data sheet advertises, and these cells aren't even Energizer cells.

    I think the data from the C9000 is acceptable.

    By the way, I took the same cell and it still discharged a little more on the C9000 after both of these discharges. This alkaline cell is performing better than your crap cell.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  29. #119

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I just received my Maha today and I've been reading a lot of interesting things here.
    But one thing isn't clear to me; say I have an 800 mAh AAA battery which has been degraded to 500 mAh. When I'm using Break-In mode, should I enter the actual discharge capacity (500mAh) or the capacity written on the label (800 mAh) when I'm asked to set the battery capacity?
    Also, when a battery has degraded does the actual discharge capacity become 1.0C?
    Last edited by Nisei; 06-20-2008 at 07:43 AM.

  30. #120
    Flashaholic* Black Rose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Enter the labelled value, 800 mAh in this case.

    The break-in cycle may revive the cell or at least give it some more capacity. It may take a couple of cycles, but it may come back to life.

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