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Thread: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

  1. #31

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Happy View Post
    There is no conclusive evidence that Eneloops need or benefit from a break-in charge mind, so there's no need to process all those cells through any cycles. Just get them out of the package and start using them
    I would have to disagree with you regarding the Break-In cycles. I did a bit of testing on the Eneloops and found that they DID benefit from 1 or 2 Break-In cycles when new.

    The test was actually trying to determine whether the new Eneloops did better with a few Refresh/Analyze cycles or a couple Break-In cycles when new.

    The results.....the Eneloops, even though new, did benefit from both the R/A cycles and from the Break-In cycles, with the Break-In cycles coming out just slightly ahead.

    Go read the following thread...

    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=175350


    Batt# - Initial Capacity - BreakIn Cycle 1 - BreakIn Cycle 2
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    EL5 - 1478 mA - 2068 mA - 2150 mA
    EL6 - 1477 mA - 2064 mA - 2141 mA
    EL7 - 1468 mA - 2057 mA - 2141 mA
    EL8 - 1488 mA - 2074 mA - 2169 mA

    Generally speaking, the 'new' Eneloops have been sitting on the shelf for a year or two. General recommendations say to run a Break-In cycle on any battery that has been sitting idle for 3 months or more.

    I think that the single test above shows that the batteries DID indeed benefit from 2 Break-In cycles, bringing them back up to their 'maximum' capacities. Not to mention helping to fully activate all the reactive materials in the battery.

    I would say that, in general, if you want to try to maximize the life of your batteries. Run a Break-In cycle or two before ever using them. Then Run a R/A cycle every 10-15 cycles. Run a Break-In cycle every 25 or so.

    Yes, you can just go ahead and start using them right out of the pack, although as the battery manufacturers state, "It may take a few charge/discharge cycles before the batteries reach their maximum performance".

    For the low current draw devices, this is probably not too important. The high current draw devices, however, I think this becomes more of a factor for overall battery capacity/longevity.

  2. #32
    *Flashaholic* Mr Happy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Turak View Post
    I would have to disagree with you regarding the Break-In cycles. I did a bit of testing on the Eneloops and found that they DID benefit from 1 or 2 Break-In cycles when new.
    No problem, I have revised my opinion on this -- see posts above.

    For average users I'd say Eneloops don't need breaking in, but for best performance they certainly can benefit from breaking in.

    Incidentally, I'm puzzled by your ~2150 mAh capacity measurements. Have you measured numbers that high with other samples than just those four? They are higher numbers than I have measured myself or seen reported elsewhere.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I have checked the capacities on well over 30 'new' (2006) Eneloops so far...

    I generally am getting between 2050 to 2150 out of all of them....when new and after at least 2 Break-In cycles.

    I beleive it is because my MH-C9000 is a slightly older revision 0G0B01. It seems that the newer units are more conservative on their calculations. They are DEFINITELY more conservative on how fully they charge a cell now (basically they don't). Well....I should say, not as full as the earlier units did. Maha backed off because some cells were getting too hot when charging them at the 1A rate.

    I definitely agree as far as the 'average' users. Its the power users and the maximize the life (cycles) that are going to see the most benefit from the extra care...
    Last edited by Turak; 03-28-2008 at 06:41 PM.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Turak View Post
    "...I beleive it is because my MH-C9000 is a slightly older revision 0G0B01. It seems that the newer units are more conservative on their calculations. They are DEFINITELY more conservative on how fully they charge a cell now (basically they don't). Well....I should say, not as full as the earlier units did.."
    This has to be the dumbest question of the month...yet is this why we witness the average "two hour" extra charging time in many member's posts...and is this advice centered around the newer chargers? (thanks in advance; I have an OGOE01).

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzr800 View Post
    This has to be the dumbest question of the month...
    Sorry, but their actually valid questions all, Rzr800.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzr800 View Post
    yet is this why we witness the average "two hour" extra charging time in many member's posts...
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzr800 View Post
    and is this advice centered around the newer chargers?
    Again, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rzr800 View Post
    (thanks in advance; I have an OGOE01).
    Your welcome, and the OGOE01 does qualify as a 'newer' charger.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    You're a good man, my friend; as are the many others who have taken the time to educate us on this machine and batteries in general. I never fully realized previously how or if an investment such as this would benefit; yet having it together now with this site's guidance has made a big difference in something actually significant in our family's budget.

  7. #37
    *Flashaholic* Mr Happy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Regarding the charging of Eneloops on the C9000, it's illuminating to look at Sanyo's data sheet for AA Eneloops that I linked to above: http://www.eneloop.info/uploads/medi...HR-3UTG_01.pdf

    If you look at the bottom of this document at the typical charge/discharge curves, this is what is shown:

    Fast charge is recommended at 1C, 2000 mA, with termination at minus delta-V = -10 mV. At 25°C, the peak voltage prior to termination is above 1.6 V. With this charge, discharge at 400 mA with termination at 1.0 V will give a measured capacity a little less than 2000 mAh.

    Now the later model C9000 chargers will stop charging when the cell voltage reaches 1.47 V, so they will never reach the 1.6 V minus delta-V point. This explains why you get "low" charge capacities of Eneloops on the C9000. On the other hand, the cells don't have a chance to get warm, so it is actually being kind to the cells this way.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Happy View Post
    Incidentally, I'm puzzled by your ~2150 mAh capacity measurements.
    I have seen Eneloop AA capacities as high as 2116 mAh, and a handful 2100 mAh or higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bones View Post
    Your welcome, and the OGOE01 does qualify as a 'newer' charger.
    I believe 0G0E01 (zeros, not Os) was the first batch of the third firmware version.
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  9. #39
    Flashaholic* chewy78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Well I have the ogoka version and i just finished a break in of my ''duraloop cells. They were 1968,1921,1955,and 1978. I did a 400ma discharge after that and I still got 1974,1926,1959, and 1986 respectively. Isn't that on the low side?

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    ...
    I believe 0G0E01 (zeros, not Os) was the first batch of the third firmware version.
    Good to know Torchboy, and good news for Rzr800.

    And you're correct in the format, which I must make it a point to remember.

    Otherwise, searching for pertinent information on the MH-C9000 updates becomes a much more difficult endeavour.

  11. #41
    *Flashaholic* Mr Happy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by chewy78 View Post
    Well I have the ogoka version and i just finished a break in of my ''duraloop cells. They were 1968,1921,1955,and 1978. I did a 400ma discharge after that and I still got 1974,1926,1959, and 1986 respectively. Isn't that on the low side?
    It lines up exactly with the numbers I measure on my cells.

    Note that your second discharge gave slightly higher readings. If you have the patience you could do another one or two break-in cycles to see if they increase any more.

  12. #42
    Flashaholic* chewy78's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I could break them in again, then my other cells will get jealous of them. but first I have to break in the other duralooops and energizer 2100's I have, so I have a base line to go on. This charger is kinda neat.

  13. #43

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    This is a new item but under this generic title topic....

    I bought a C9000 about a year ago. Last Dec. slot 1 died....it got stuck trying to ALWAYS charge (as shown in the display) even with no batts in it....and would not reset after being unplugged for days....tho the start-up display seemed normal.

    So nicely and responsibly it was replaced by mfr under warranty as being defective. That was just fine.

    But now the replacement unit is doing the same thing...so I wrote but not heard back as yet.

    My question is: others experiencing this same problem? is it a frequent problem? is there anyway to prevent such occurrence?

    I am a low usage user... 2 to 4 AA batts charged per week and do not do anything unusual with batts or charger.

    Doug.S

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hi Doug. It sounds like a problem I had, where the charger would think there was a cell in slot 2, then restart instead of charging it, and hence just endlessly restarted/rebooted. There have been a few others with the same problem.

    What batch number does your present one have? It's on the label on the back, something like 0G0B01.
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    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Before I forget it, the manual that came with my latest MH-C9000 (0H0AA) still has the minimum recommended charge rate of 0.3C.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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  16. #46
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Ian,

    Yes, I don't believe the manual was included in the improvement...

    Tom
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    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  17. #47
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Tom, in the Cycle mode when it pauses for two (!) hours after charging, is it doing a top up charge? You don't mention it in your comparison.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
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  18. #48
    *Flashaholic* Mr Happy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    in the Cycle mode when it pauses for two (!) hours after charging, is it doing a top up charge?
    I don't know the answer to this, but there is a way to determine what it is doing.

    You can use an Eneloop for testing and watch it after the charge completes. The normal charge will finish when the cell reaches 1.47 V, and the voltage will then drop back down a bit, say to 1.45 V. Now if a top off charge is being applied the voltage will slowly creep back up again to 1.48 V or 1.49 V over the next two hours. However, if no top off charge is being applied, the voltage will stabilize at 1.45 V or even drop down to about 1.43 V.

  19. #49
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Yes, I think it did increase, which is why I first thought it was charging. Then I noticed that it took 2 hours, not the 1 hour the Break In rest takes. I'll run another test to confirm.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
    Ian.
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  20. #50
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Ian,

    I believe we looked at that, but I can't find the information.

    For some reason I think it does a trickle charge during the two hours between charging and discharging, bit I don't know that for sure.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  21. #51

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    Hi Doug. It sounds like a problem I had, where the charger would think there was a cell in slot 2, then restart instead of charging it, and hence just endlessly restarted/rebooted. There have been a few others with the same problem.

    What batch number does your present one have? It's on the label on the back, something like 0G0B01.

    0G0IA

  22. #52

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by TorchBoy View Post
    Hi Doug. It sounds like a problem I had, where the charger would think there was a cell in slot 2, then restart instead of charging it, and hence just endlessly restarted/rebooted. There have been a few others with the same problem.

    What batch number does your present one have? It's on the label on the back, something like 0G0B01.
    0G0IA

    Maha is sending another replacement and will test this failed unit I'll return to them.
    Last edited by Doug.S; 04-02-2008 at 07:49 PM.

  23. #53

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    Hi. I am new Maha c9000 user. I have couple of questions, hope you can help me.

    Question #1)
    Suppose I perform a Refresh&Analyze function on some specific battery, choose charge current 700ma, discharge 400ma. When operation is done, capacity is (in my particular case 1320)
    Than I do a charge mode of the same cell @ 700ma, than let it rest 20-30 min (not 2 hours as it rests in refresh mode) And then i perform a discharge operation @ 400ma, Result capacity is 1190 - somewhat less.
    And the same pattern repeats itself with many cells, not just one.
    Can anybody explain this?

    Question #2). I have some very old dead cells, that i'm trying to revive.
    They apparently have high internal resistance. Once i charge them (with slow current) and try to perform a discharge operation @ 800ma - I get DONE after less than 1 min, and capacity is 0mah (maybe 1-2mah)
    Now, when i set a discharge current to be 100-200ma, it discharges it for a long time and reaches >1000mah. But more interestingly, voltage stays very low all the time <1v (0.94, 0.95v etc...)
    I've read that it terminates the discharge process when cell reaches 1v. So how is tis possible? And what to do with these old cells to try to revive them?

  24. #54
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Hello Junglemike,

    When you perform a discharge 20 minutes after Done is displayed, you are cutting out the top off charge. The C9000 applies a 100 mA top off charge for 2 hours after Done is displayed. If you add a little less than 200 mAh, due to charging inefficiencies, to your results, you should be close to what you saw on the Refresh/Analyze mode.

    Crap cells should be recycled. If you want to play, you can do 12 cycles of Refresh/Analyze using 500 mA charging at 100 mA discharging. At the end of this, do a 1000 mA charge, wait 2 hours to complete the top off, then do a 500 mA discharge. This will give you an idea of how well your efforts paid off.

    Now that you have run your experiment, recycle the cells if they have not returned to at least 80% of their labeled capacity.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    I have a quick question that I felt did not warrant starting a new thread. Just bought a pack of 4 Duracells 2650mAh. I am wanting to do a break in on these using the C-9000. When i am prompted to enter the capacity i have to choose either 2600 or 2700. Should i go hi and select 2700 or stay safe and select 2600.
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  26. #56
    Flashaholic* Black Rose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Go with 2600.

    I asked a similar question with regards to some 750 mAh AAA cells I had.

    The C9000 will put more charge into the cells during break in.

    Here is the response I received regarding my AAA cells:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...0&postcount=14

  27. #57

    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    SilverFox, thanks very much for your valuable advice.

  28. #58
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Quote Originally Posted by junglemike View Post
    I've read that it terminates the discharge process when cell reaches 1v.
    It was only the very first release of the C9000 that terminated at 1 V. All the more recent ones terminate at 0.9 V.
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  29. #59
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Ok, so I'm in the market for a C9000, but naturally would prefer one of the later revisions without the cycle bug. I spoke to the UK distributor who said they received their stock at Christmas / end of last year. Is this likely to be recent enough to ensure getting a later revision? Anyone have an idea of when the revised versions entered the shipping/wholesale channels?

    Thanks in advance.

  30. #60
    Flashaholic* TorchBoy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Maha MH-C9000 SUPPORT / FAQ - continuation

    Very likely stroberaver. If you want to be really sure, get them to have a look at what batch number is on one before you buy it. It seems to take at least 2 or 3 months for new batches to get on the market but that will vary all over the place depending on stock levels of older ones.
    No, a torch does not always mean flames.
    Ian.
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