Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception buster" ?

Hi there...

Introduction, first:
Pre·con·cep·tion (prē'kən-sěp'shən)
n. An opinion or conception formed in advance of adequate knowledge or experience, especially a prejudice or bias. (Webster Dictionary)


Preliminary facts:
Here in Brasil we don´t have top notch flashlight factories. Neither sporting goods factories, motorcycle factories, etc.

Ours Nike/Adidas/Reebok/Puma sneakers are all made in Thailand/Vietnam/China/Malaysia.

Ours Surefire/Fenix/Nuwai flashlights are all made in USA/China/Taiwan.

Ours Suzuki/Kawasaki/Yamaha/Harley-Davidson bikes are all made in Japan/USA. Well... actually, not all... Brasil has THE ONLY Harley Davidson factory out of U.S. territory.

Instead, here we have Toyota, Honda, Renault, Audi, Glock, Taurus, Peugeot, Ford, GM, Fiat, Volkswagen factories. We also have Dell, Hewlett-Packard, LeNovo, Acer, Sony, Samsung computer factories. And a lot of others international (and american) factories, like Pepsi, Coca-Cola, Intel, Microsoft, Nokia, Motorola, General Electric, Siemens, LG, etc, etc...

Well, my point is: EVERY country has good factories (that offer quality products) and bad factories (that offer poor or fake products).

I truly believe that good or bad quality is connected with the brand name (and the factory quality control), and NOT only with the country of origin.






Back to present time:
In the "Reviews" section of this forum, there is a lot of reviews about the new Fenix TK10. Most of the guys said a lot of good things about this light, like it´s construction, runtime, power, finish, etc...

I gotta say that I´ve never saw so many reviews about the same light, in so little time!!

Anyway, in those reviews, and in a lot others reviews (like in L2D, L0D, P2D...), I saw those words:

"It´s a very good light... for a light made in China." (not the exactly words, but it was something like that).

So, my questions are:
1 - Does still exist a preconception about "made in China" products ?

2 - Why do this preconception exists, if your Nike/Adidas/Wilson sneakers/raquets/caps are all made in China/Malaysia/Vietnam ?

3 - Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception smasher" ?

4 - If this preconception about chinese lights exists, when you think it will disappear ? Maybe after testing this new Fenix TK10 ? Or never ??


I´m curious for the answers...

Regards!

I do not judge lights, or any other products by their point of origin.

I believe the TK10 is a buster.

Federal LG said:

So, my questions are:
1 - Does still exist a preconception about "made in China" products ?

2 - Why do this preconception exists, if your Nike/Adidas/Wilson sneakers/raquets/caps are all made in China/Malaysia/Vietnam ?

3 - Is the new Fenix TK10 a "preconception smasher" ?

4 - If this preconception about chinese lights exists, when you think it will disappear ? Maybe after testing this new Fenix TK10 ? Or never ??

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1. Yes it does, chinese make good products however flashlight wise they are not near any of the Surefire or US makers. The model of chinese business is to cut cost at the expense of quality. We have seen this before and we see it now. Someone claimed that the TK10 is more like a surefire E series which is pretty strange because the surefire E series is more a back up, EDC light while the other is a Tactical light. If you compared the TK10 vs the L5, the L5 would win hands down in terms of built as ACME square threads, double o'rings, true HAIII, shock rings while the other has none of that yet it claims to be a surefire.

2. Usually when a US company subcontracts their products to china the cocntractors have to meet certain minimun standards while the chinese products has none, however i'm not into NIKE, ADIDAS, WILSON stuff. Another example is swchim they were good bikemakers and they outsourced their bike production to Taiwan, 10 yrs later the same Taiwanese subcontractor broke ties with Schimn Bikes because they have learnt enough and came with their own brand GIANT bikes. That goes back to square 1 where chinese can't make anything good yet and still relies on copying others and needs the expertise of a overseas company as an stepping stone.

3. Fenix TK10 is just another tactical light, usually the operator decides whether is good or bad, but to me this light's major flaw is the inability to switch modes with 1 hand such as a 2 stage LOTC like the surefire L1 or a more complicated 2 stage clickie. If the TK10 were to be something innovative it should adopt this kind of switch. Changing your grip position to change modes is not very "TACTICAL" to me but that is up to the end user. The light still uses the 2 path circuit like all other fenix lights.

4. Chinese preconection will disappear the day they stop making cheaply wannabee knock offs. Japanese were like them awhile ago and now they are a standard to follow. I believe that my generation will never lose this preconception but people born in the "I" generation will be more open to chinese products. Since china have more capital now to invest into R&D but the change will happen gradually and will take 15 or 20 more yrs.

People's conception is very hard to change, Fenix has starded selling those boring looking lights offering fast lead times and low machining costs and this is what they are known into. It would be better for Fenix to have a second sister brand like toyota and lexus. Fenix would still be the old boring lights while another sister brand could be the ubber cool tactical lights. That way if the Tactical lights sucked wouldn't hurt an Established Fenix image at all or viceversa.

It seems products coming out of China are getting better all the time. Many of my children's toys come from China, and many of them are of wonderful quality, even if some were tainted with lead.

When I got my first Fenix I was surprised at the quality when I realised it was made in China. I can't remember if I knew Fenix was a Chinese company when I ordered my P1D-CE, but I know I was surprised at how good the quality was for a Chinese product.

I think as more high quality products come out of China, people's preconceptions will change.

First I must say that in the USA pride in our own products is ingrained in our culture. We are taught from birth to place high value on "made in the USA products." 1) Yes. In general products made in China still carry the feeling of cheap,mass produced crud. 2) You make a good point however some "American" companies are given a double standard in our culture. Because Nike is popular its "okay" if they're made in China, but not some other brand we've never heard of. There is perhaps a belief that the factories that make certain things are held to a higher standard than those of brands which we have not heard of... ie not American or western brand names. Furthermore some people don't buy Nike etc anymore because of outsourcing of American jobs to china, etc. 3) I'll have to get back to you on this, I haven't read the reviews. I wasn't impressed by my first Fenix so I don't plan on being impressed by any Fenix at this time. 4) The TK 10 won't change my general conceptions, even if it is the best Light I've ever beheld there's no guarantee yet that their next light will be great too. In time if Fenix continually puts out superior quality products it will change.

Very interesting answers...

You see, Wade, if we compare my first Fenix light (a Civictor... that I don´t even know if it is a Fenix) with this new TK10, the evolution of quality is HUGE!

greenstuffs said:

I believe that my generation will never lose this preconception but people born in the "I" generation will be more open to chinese products. Since china have more capital now to invest into R&D but the change will happen gradually and will take 15 or 20 more yrs.

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I am 28 years old. My old best light was a incan Maglite 2 D. I can remember, when I was a boy scout, how all my friends became impressed with my new Maglite 2D. Everybody bought the same light!

So, you can imagine how I felt when I jumped from my incan 2D Maglite to my 1xAA Civictor ? (That was my first LED light...)

I think I don´t have preconception about chinese products. I know that there is a lot of fake products coming from there, but I gotta confess how I was impressed the first time that I had a LED light (a Fenix Civictor).

PhantomPhoton said:

First I must say that in the USA pride in our own products is ingrained in our culture. We are taught from birth to place high value on "made in the USA products."

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Your culture is fascinating, Phantom. I respect a lot the american values of liberty and democracy, for example. Your history is fascinating too.

I have good friends in U.S. (in Elmira, NY, and Waltersboro, SC). It´s an outstanding country!

And I gotta say that this american pride of american products exists here in Brasil too! We know that! Everytime someone of my family goes to U.S. (my mom or sister), we all ask them to bring us some jeans, T-shirts, boots, socks, hats... stuff like that. They´re all BUILT TO LAST!

Federal LG said:

You see, Wade, if we compare my first Fenix light (a Civictor... that I don´t even know if it is a Fenix) with this new TK10, the evolution of quality is HUGE!

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My first Fenix was the P1D-CE P4, and shortly after that a P3D P4, then a P2D Q2, etc. I don't have any experience with the earlier Fenix products, but from what I hear, the quality is a lot better from the time I got in than it was in the past, and I've seen the quality improve since my first Fenix.

Also I can change modes with my TK10 with one hand. :naughty:

They have glock production in brazil? I thought they were made in austria...

eyeeatingfish said:

They have glock production in brazil? I thought they were made in austria...

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Austria is their home country, of course!
We have a "mounting line" (sorry about my english) here in Brasil, in Campinas (a 2.5 million people city in São Paulo State).

Down here that idea is almost gone i.e. Made in China does not mean the product is cheap or poorly manufactured.

I'm sure it will just take the US a few more years to catch up with this way of thinking.

Made in Japan used to be the same 15 - 20 years ago, especially with regard to cars.

I think Fenix is really trying to improve their quality.

Good on them.

WadeF said:

My first Fenix was the P1D-CE P4, and shortly after that a P3D P4, then a P2D Q2, etc. I don't have any experience with the earlier Fenix products, but from what I hear, the quality is a lot better from the time I got in than it was in the past, and I've seen the quality improve since my first Fenix.

Also I can change modes with my TK10 with one hand. :naughty:

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I was impressed when I saw the difference in build quality between my L2T (1st version) and my L2D-CE:

http://picasaweb.google.ca/picasawildchild/L2DCE/photo#5029582523439674610

I never quite got the itch for the T1, but once I saw pics of the TK10 I just had to pull the trigger. I'm very glad I did!

I never had a preconception about Fenix. My first one was a Lux P1 at least three years ago. It still looks great and works well.

TK10 has nearly blown me away with quality of construction!

To those who dismiss it out of hand as not tactical (and I must admit I'm NOT tacticool myself) well you can have it come on bright. And in a tacticool situation I think you'd want to start in Turbo and then you should have plenty of time after the initial excitement to twist the head for general mode.

I took the two mode clicky out of my Luma M1 as it started in low. And I still fumble with partial push of reverse clicky to switch modes.

I LIKE the simple twist for modes!!!!

I stilll don't get the claims that Fenix isn't "True HAIII". My P2D has been in my pocket for about 6 months WITH my keys and looks brand new.

Also, I do like American things, etc.. but let me say this.. "American cars".

I am all for the whole American patriotism, its healthy, for the most part...its when people start trashing other country's products...that i get mad..cos to them, just cos its made in china, its gotta be crap.... i mean, they gotta wake up..

Careful though Federal LG, this is a veritable can of worms youre opening here..

Crenshaw

First of all, I hope people keep things civil(Thanks everyone for doing that!). I can see how this can easily be come another argument that gets nowhere.

Now with that done,

1. Not for me. For the price, I think it would be hard to beat many of the good Chinese products.
2. Some people don't know. Others trust the brand to keep the QC up(The lower quality ones stay and get sold in China and the better ones go around the world, I know since I was there last summer)
3. Probably not since the majority of the population haven't even heard of Fenix.
4. When? IMO within 15 years for the US. Other places would change at different times.

I believe Springfield has their 1911 frames made in Brazil also and their are very good. I think any country can make a good product some just don't try very hard. With out capitalism they don't have to but in today's global market they might have to start.

Federal,

I didn't read all of the TK10 reviews, especially after doing my own extensive review, but while doing my review, I had no pre-conceived ideas about the lights quality based on where it was made. As I said in my review I based it on the lights own merits. While I like American made flashlights just fine, especially Surefire's, I don't presume that anyone light is better than another just because of the name on it. In my opinion the TK10 is just as rugged as anyother manufacturers light that I own. It had some minor quality issues with some of the items like the screws, but I would fault the manufacturer for that, not the country it came from. I have always believed that we can't help but base things on what we see as a whole (like where something is made) but we should try and base our opinions on fact, not preconceived notions that all things coming from one place is inferior.

Bill

Interesting thread.....from a Non American and Non Chinese persons point of view.

I think this Preconception is definitly there against chinese stuff....but not only chinese, but more generally non American (No offence intended and not tarring everyone with the same brush).

I think many Americans assume American made is better in product build qualiity terms at least, even if it isn't. I have several Fenixs, and am now starting to get American Lights too (I have a 6P already, and a Novatac in the post). So Far I don't think the latest fenx lights are that far behind the 6P at least....in construction terms.

I think the oposite preconception also exists. I have read comments about American cars being better than Japanese and European in build quality and safety....again no offense.....but I personally disagree. I have often read the materials used arguement, at least as far as cars go I do not believe American cars are made of better materials. I am a member of MTBR, an american based Mountain bike forum...the same arguements pop up there too, but Taiwanese built frames can be at least as good as American built for mass produced bikes, I ride a Specialized SWORKS FSR M5....american design, Taiwanese made.

America (and the UK, and many other [mainly] western countries) have cottage industry comanies though that produce more nichie products that are more expensive....not built significantly better other than being hand finished (by that I mean they are in the zone of deminishing returns)...and have character and individualism. China, Taiwan etc may do aswell.....I (We?) just don't know about them.

I do worry about human rights of the Chinese work force....I hope Fenix aren't guilty of that....especially as the non flashaholic (at least the people I know) wouldn't pay what a Fenix costs for a "Torch". Buying Made in the USA does hint that the workforce are probably paid/treated properly.

There are definitley brilliant imaginative engineers outside the USA. To think A merican engineers are better than any/every other countries is stupid and arrogant. Just because you don't hear of them in the US doesn't mean they aren't there. American engineers have the luxury of working for companies that can rely on their reputation which means they can mark the price up more and asre allowed to do R & D and support their products.

Fenix is very refreshing to me, as they seem to listen to what the customer wants and very quickly make it, and for a good price too. They evolve their lines far more quickly that most.

After all that...this is coming from someone who is confused that people want to collect a gazillion surefires hehe.....but It helps me realise what my mates think of me and my small collection of (not necesarily surefire) torches.
u
Just like Japan, the preconceptions could go away. I say could though....China should treat its workers properly....I don't think (correct me if I am wrong) Japan has had a major problem with human rights of its workers.

Stu