Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 83

Thread: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

  1. #31

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Nice!

    How many holes in the top, what size are the holes, and where did you get the ceramic cotton?

    Just regular fiberglass cloth like the stuff used for boat hull repair?

    Did you use SS Tig filler wire for making the pot support?

    Thanks,
    Scott

  2. #32
    Flashaholic* KDOG3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Sea Isle City, NJ
    Posts
    4,211

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Oh man, I did NOT need to see this thread! I bookmarked about every link here. I definetly gotta try this.... We need to find the best plans available out there. I don't understand something though where do you put the fuel? It looks like you pour it directly in the center but that can't be right. I'm missing something.....
    FAILURE TO PLAN ON YOUR PART DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY ON MY PART.

  3. #33
    Unenlightened
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    This is another photo of a most recent modification. I replaced the fiberglass cloth with stainless steel mesh. Just pour the fuel into the center of the stove and light. I came to the forums to research the use of tritium tubes. I have used them in creating a survival type flashlight that some might find it interesting. I'll start another thread on that DIY project. Would tritium go under this forum? (other) I'm also expecting to receive some Self Igniting Cigar Lighters in the mail that I can make some available here if I can get anyone interested. I'll start a thread on those also.


  4. #34
    Flashaholic Dirty Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Great State of TEXAS
    Posts
    137

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Stainless steel as a pot support would be nice, where can I scavange some?
    One source is stainless bike spokes. Any bike shop should be able to sell them to you. Not very expensive, but tough and rust-resistant.

    Regards,
    Dirty Bob
    "That's what makes S.F. so badass, we got the best flashlights." - Archie Gates, Three Kings

  5. #35
    Unenlightened
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by TranquillityBase View Post
    Nice!

    How many holes in the top, what size are the holes, and where did you get the ceramic cotton?

    Just regular fiberglass cloth like the stuff used for boat hull repair?

    Did you use SS Tig filler wire for making the pot support?

    Thanks,
    Scott
    Ceramic Cotton comes from a chimney repair company locally.

    s/s wire came from ebay

    Fiberglass from the local hardware. Fiberglass repair kit/bondo car body and fender repairs, boat repairs etc.

  6. #36
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Northern NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,869

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Bob View Post
    One source is stainless bike spokes. Any bike shop should be able to sell them to you. Not very expensive, but tough and rust-resistant.
    Regards,
    Dirty Bob
    One of my first pot supports was from SS bike spokes. It was very wobbly with a pot of water on it, and would collapse often with the movement of the boiling water. This failure led to a great discovery though. My stove usually ran for a maximum of about 11 minutes. I filled the stove and lit it, a few minutes later, just as the water started to boil the bike spoke stand collapsed and some of the water spilled out into the stove. It was still burning, but at a reduced level, and I just left it to burn itself out and just used the water that remained to fill a water bottle, which was for my son to put in his sleeping bag with him. We were backpacking Thanksgiving weekend in the Adirondaks, and so it was below freezing the whole three days, and the hot water bottle in the bag is the best trick I know to sleep warm. My son and I then went to look at the stars in a clearing nearby. It is so dark up in the Adirondaks the sky amazed us. We spent at least 20 minutes and when we got back the stove was still lit! So now, if I'm cooking something that needs to reach boiling and then simmer, I take between half a tablespoon to two tablespoons of water and add it to the stove once the water in the pot starts to boil. It reduces the flame intensity and prolongs the burn time. It's kind of adding a low level to a flashlight to extend battery life. I've tried the 'simmer ring' recommended on my penny stove, but for me the water works better. When you use the right amount of water, there is no liquid left in the stove when it finishes burning.
    Last edited by LED_Thrift; 05-11-2011 at 12:12 PM.

  7. #37
    Thread Killer Illum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Central Florida, USA
    Posts
    12,523

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlotte View Post
    Enter the White Box Stove (so named because it arrives from its manufacturer inna white box...)


    WANT...ONE...NOW!
    Wonder if we have any members in Montana that could get a group buy from this, $20 for all that is absolutely fantastic!
    I'm getting one meself.


    Any idea where I can buy this fuel?
    Last edited by Illum; 12-17-2008 at 10:39 AM.

  8. #38
    Flashaholic* f22shift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    shanghai
    Posts
    1,965

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    http://cgi.ebay.com/UltralightDesign...3A2%7C294%3A50

    this looks similar. at almost half the price. whats the difference

  9. #39
    *Flashaholic* greenLED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    La Tiquicia
    Posts
    13,244

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Any tips to make these things leak-proof (without using tape or epoxy, that is). Every single one we've made ends up leaking gas once ignited and pressurized.

  10. #40
    Flashaholic* f22shift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    shanghai
    Posts
    1,965

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove


  11. #41

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by greenLED View Post
    Any tips to make these things leak-proof (without using tape or epoxy, that is). Every single one we've made ends up leaking gas once ignited and pressurized.
    It's all in the stretch Migs...All of the stoves I made are leak-proof, and I didn't use any sealant. I use a full can of soda to stretch one of the soda can halves.

    You have to push straight down when stretching the can half, and maintain an 'arbor press' like motion, until the can half is stretched enough.

    If you send me enough to create a shipping label, I'll send you the stove from post one for study. Send me an email if you're interested.

  12. #42
    Flashaholic* f22shift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    shanghai
    Posts
    1,965

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    what are you guys using to transport the fuel?

  13. #43
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Northern NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,869

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    On my last trip, a one nighter w my son, I used a rubbing alcohol [plastic] container. I often just use a plastic gatoraide bottle.

  14. #44
    Flashaholic Dirty Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Great State of TEXAS
    Posts
    137

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    One of my first pot supports was from SS bike spokes. It was very wobbly with a pot of water on it, and would collapse often with the movement of the boiling water.
    Wow, bummer!

    My experience has been different. I'm using a 16oz. stainless cup for cooking. My windscreen/pot support is aluminum flashing just a bit bigger in diameter than the cup. The two spokes poke through holes in the windscreen to support the cup. The length of spoke exposed to the flames is fairly short, and the windscreen is wide and super-stable.

    Your issues show the need for realistic testing before using the stove kit out in the field.

    All my best,
    Dirty Bob
    "That's what makes S.F. so badass, we got the best flashlights." - Archie Gates, Three Kings

  15. #45
    Unenlightened
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by f22shift View Post
    what are you guys using to transport the fuel?
    I use gas line antifreeze "HEET" in the yellow bottle. The bottle is used for fuel storage until empty. The new ones have screw on caps that seal well.

  16. #46
    Thread Killer Illum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Central Florida, USA
    Posts
    12,523

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by greenLED View Post
    Any tips to make these things leak-proof (without using tape or epoxy, that is). Every single one we've made ends up leaking gas once ignited and pressurized.
    that has been one of the reoccurring issues for me as well...I dunno where to find this purple meth so I used isopropyl alcohol...relatively easy to put out if spilled but not all that useful when lit and is ~10% water

    I'm assuming the meth is Denatured Alcohol thats dyed purple to emphasize it as a fuel or as a marker?

  17. #47
    Flashaholic* f22shift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    shanghai
    Posts
    1,965

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by Illum_the_nation View Post
    that has been one of the reoccurring issues for me as well...I dunno where to find this purple meth so I used isopropyl alcohol...relatively easy to put out if spilled but not all that useful when lit and is ~10% water

    I'm assuming the meth is Denatured Alcohol thats dyed purple to emphasize it as a fuel or as a marker?

    food coloring.

  18. #48
    *Flashaholic* greenLED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    La Tiquicia
    Posts
    13,244

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by TranquillityBase View Post
    It's all in the stretch Migs...All of the stoves I made are leak-proof, and I didn't use any sealant. I use a full can of soda to stretch one of the soda can halves.

    You have to push straight down when stretching the can half, and maintain an 'arbor press' like motion, until the can half is stretched enough.

    If you send me enough to create a shipping label, I'll send you the stove from post one for study. Send me an email if you're interested.
    for the tip! PM incoming.

  19. #49
    Thread Killer Illum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Central Florida, USA
    Posts
    12,523

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by f22shift View Post
    food coloring.
    it doesn't affect the flames?
    I don't want to have crazy green/red/purple flames sprouting from the soda burner
    http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/lights/a1f3/

  20. #50
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Northern NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,869

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Regarding using SS bike spokes for pot support:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Bob View Post
    My experience has been different. I'm using a 16oz. stainless cup for cooking....
    That's the difference, I'm using a pot large enough for a full liter of water [one large nalgene bottle full]. If I was solo, the bike spoke support would probably work. Does your windscreen help stabilize the pot support? I'm not picturing it.

  21. #51
    Flashaholic* f22shift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    shanghai
    Posts
    1,965

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by Illum_the_nation View Post
    it doesn't affect the flames?
    I don't want to have crazy green/red/purple flames sprouting from the soda burner
    http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/lights/a1f3/
    It doesn't affect the color. I saw on one of the youtube vid the guy mentioning of adding food color for safety. When he burned it, it looked normal. Too bad.

  22. #52
    *Flashaholic* greenLED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    La Tiquicia
    Posts
    13,244

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by f22shift View Post
    It doesn't affect the color. I saw on one of the youtube vid the guy mentioning of adding food color for safety. When he burned it, it looked normal. Too bad.
    Adding food dyes does nothing to the flame color. You'd need to dissolve cehmical compounds (copper sulfate comes to mind first) in the alcohol to actually alter the flame color (simple chemistry at work).

  23. #53
    Flashaholic* f22shift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    shanghai
    Posts
    1,965

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    I did see some product in walmart that makes color flames for camp fires. I'm not sure what form it's in (liquid, paste, tablet, etc) but i can imagine it leaves a residue so i'm not interested.
    I wonder if the food coloring does..

  24. #54
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Northern NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,869

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    I colored a batch of denatured alcohol w food coloring and it did leave a residue on my stoves. It was fairly easy to remove, but I didn't do it again.

  25. #55
    Flashaholic* f22shift's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    shanghai
    Posts
    1,965

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Quote Originally Posted by Aloft View Post
    While building your own stove certainly has a strong appeal, for those of us that lack the necessary mechanical savvy, I highly recommend the "Clikstand". I keep it in a 0.9liter ti pot (not non-stick, you don't want to scratch that stuff!). The Clikstand uses the proven Trangia burner that has served Swedish Army soldiers for about a century, IIRC. It has the advantage of a screw top so you can save the fuel in the burner that has not burned for your next meal. I was very impressed by the Clikstand's quality and apparent durability.

    Of course, you could also try the "real" Trangia Stoves, made by trangia.se ... they're not ultralight by any means, and they rattle around in a pack, but they're bombproof and virtually unaffected by wind. I did a little test with a half liter of water:

    Tap water (approx 65F), Outside air temp 65F .... Boil in 8 minutes
    Ice Water (approx 38F), Outside air temp 65F .... Boil in 8 minutes
    Tap Water, Outside air temp 40F .... Boil in 8 minutes
    Ice Water, Outside air temp 40F, wind about 12mph .... Boil in 8 minutes

    Hmmm, no discernable pattern there! Not as impressive as a Jet Boil or some other fancy liquid fueled stove which claim a 90 second boil, but not as temperamental either; or as smelly or loud.

    I usually light my Trangia burner with sparks from a swiss fire steel. I once put my burner in the freezer with a full fuel load for 3 weeks (don't forget to put the screw top on!). After getting its temperature down that much, it would NOT light with the firesteel, but still lit very easily with an open flame from a match. I did this to test the theory that alcohol stoves are unreliable in freezing temps ... theory apparently busted! Seems like a silly theory anyway, since they're used in Sweden all the time!

    If you're not familiar with alcohol stoves, a word of caution. Their advantages of silent operation and almost invisible flame (especially in daylight) might make them ideal for Navy SEALS or Army Rangers, but if you have small kids around, be careful they don't knock it over ... the fuel will spill and catch nearby objects on fire.
    are u using the windscreen?
    i ordered the clikstand set
    stand says min 4.2 in
    windscreen says max 6in
    what can i get that fits that dia, fits the set inside, made of ti or ano alum, at least 2 cups w/lid
    thx!

  26. #56
    Moderator
    *Mammoth Killer*
    Robocop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Birmingham Al.
    Posts
    2,525

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Holy smoke this thing is frustrating to make however I finally got one complete. I must have torn up 8 coke cans before figuring out the best method but again it is very cool once you figure it out.

    I had the most trouble joining the two halves without crimping the edges and destroying the seal. I searched the net a little and found out to use a cut out section of can as a shim and worked it around the edge slowly and it worked great. Also smoothing the edges with light sandpaper helped alot.

    There are several different versions all over the net and my next project is to make a sealed one using a pressure screw.....thanks for the thread as I had many hours of fun with this project.
    Is that an ARC in your pocket or are you just small like that?

  27. #57
    Unenlightened
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Northern Illinois
    Posts
    9

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    We got pop can stoves and tealite stoves and wedding favor tin stoves and now we have beer bottle stoves.

    I've been able to re-shape the aluminum beer bottle to create a one piece container that can be used as a stove. That's not new!!!! I have been able to improve upon the design as others have improved upon pop can stoves and the like. Cat stoves take on different shapes and forms.

    I did get a cam corder video device for christmas and had to try it out today. New toy, takes a little patience getting used to editing and loading.
    Here is a preview of the "Cobalt" stove:

    I got 6 cups of water up to 200 degrees with 2 ounces of HEET. Not bad for this type of stove. 3/4 ounce of HEET will boil 2 cups of water in 6.5 min. Test were done under optimum conditions in my kitchen. Starting water temp was at 70 degrees out of the tap. Air temp was at 65.


  28. #58
    Flashaholic nzbazza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    257

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    I had been meaning to play around with making some the homemade meths stoves I'd come across on the web lately and due to the early finish in the cricket last night and the ready supply of cans available I decided to have a crack at one or two.

    So far I have tried two designs and hope to make a few others as well. See the links below.

    For the sake of science (and to allow me to empty some more cans), I timed how long the stoves took to boil 500ml of water, and compared that to my normal gas canister stove a Snow Peak Gigapower GS100.

    The first was the Firelight Stove, which is claimed to be made from 1 can and can be made in only a few minutes using only a knife and scissors. About 20 min later and 2 attempts I had a working stove! The hardest thing I found was cutting out the top of the can.

    The second was the Cat Stove. I used a 185g tuna can and a 85g catfood can for the two parts. I used a $2 can opener from the supermarket with a triangular can piercer (church key) to make the air holes on the the sides on the cans. As before the hardest part was making the centre hole in the top can, I used a large drill then used tin snips. A small strip of fibreglass insulation from the ceiling finished the job.

    A potstand was fashioned out of wire from a metal coat hanger and a oven tray was cut up to provide a windshield.

    Stove testing:
    The stoves were tested inside (no wind!!) with 19degC air temp and at 160m elevation, so pretty much ideal conditions. 500ml of tap water at 16degC was used in a 1000ml aluminium billy. Times recorded are to a good rolling boil.

    First up was the Gigapower. On a new canister boiltime was 2:45. The firelight stove took 8:30 using 2 tablespoons of Meths. The Cat Stove was much faster at 5:10 using 2 tablespoons of Meths.

    Positives:
    Great to be able to make your own tramping gear. Cheap! A few dollars of parts builds a working stove. Reliable. Some people have cooked hundreds of meals on a single stove without problems.

    Negatives:
    Despite use of simmer rings, relaively poor control over heat output. Runtime of stove determined by amount of fuel used, only a limited amount of fuel able to be used in stove at once. Not suitable for large cooking tasks or melting snow etc.

    Overall:
    Making and using both stoves has been a lot of fun. My next step is to build a proper pot stand and windshield for the Cat stove and try it out in the hills. I expect the Cat stove to be most useful for 1-2 people during the warmer months for cooking fairly simple meals.

    I'll report back once a field test or two has gone ahead.

    Website links:

    Firelight Stove:
    http://www.backpacking.net/makegear/...StoveDIY01.pdf

    Cat Stove:
    www.royrobinson.homestead.com/Cat_Stove.html
    http://zenstoves.net/CatCanStove.htm

    Penny Stove:
    A pressurised alcohol stove with an ingenious pressure regulator
    http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/penny.html
    http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/stoveinstruct.html
    http://www.csun.edu/~mjurey/waite_instruct.html

    Pika Stove:
    An aluminium can version of the Cat stove.
    http://users.sisqtel.net/losthiker/pikastove/

    Outstanding resource on alcohol stoves and camping stoves in general:
    www.zenstoves.net

    Another good resource:
    http://wings.interfree.it/html/main.html
    Is that a torch in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?

  29. #59
    *Flashaholic* greenLED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    La Tiquicia
    Posts
    13,244

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Success at last! Here's a few of mine; all open style (not pressurized):



    The one on the right is a side burning style. I'm proud of that one because I was able to complete it with a pressure fit - no epoxy on that one!

    The one on the left is a bit of an experiment. I got tired of throwing away the tops of the cans, so I made that one using a top and bottom of a can. The ID ridges are not the same size, so the inside wall is not perpendicular to the base. I only left the "stock" hole open on that one. That increases the time that takes the stove to light up in full force, but it also makes it burn longer - sort of a semi-pressurized hybrid of sorts. I opened the top hole a little bit the other day, but I haven't tested its performance yet.

    The middle one is a "regular" model.

    I used instructions from the Zen alcohol stoves site.

    They all boil a cup of water in under 3.5 minutes. Any ideas on how to regulate the output? What's the effect of smaller/larger holes on performance (speed of heating, and fuel consumption)?

    More pics for the pyro crowd.



  30. #60
    Flashaholic nzbazza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    257

    Default Re: Way cool, ultra light weight camping stove

    Nice stoves Greenled and thanks for pics! The one on the right sure is a flame monster.

    My most recent build is the Super Cat Stove. This is another super simple stove, consisting of 1x 85g aluminium cat food can and two rows of strategically placed holes around the sides. Out of the 3 stoves built so far this is the easiest. Unlike the other stoves this one doesn't require a pot stand, the billy sits directly on top of the can.

    All the alcohol stoves I've made are very vulnerable to wind so a windshield is vital for efficient operation. I used a foil oven tray cut to size around the billy leaving a 5-7 mm gap, and cutting out a slot for the billy handles and an air port down low on the leeward side.

    The Super Cat Stove achieved a rolling boil on 500ml of 15degC water in a Snowpeak 900 ti billy at 4:45 min then continued to maintain a boil for an additional 2:45 min on 2 tablespoons of Meths.

    Testing the Super Cat Stove outside on a typically windy Wellington evening with the windshield in place I was able to cook a packet of 2 min (ramen) noodles and a packet soup no problems.

    The Super Cat Stove is my current favourite (smaller, lighter, simpler, faster than the Cat Stove).

    Field Test:
    I tested the Super Cat stove over a summertime weekend hike up a bush clad river valley.

    Cooking on the alcohol stove consisted of 1 dinner and 1 breakfast and a couple of boilups for a cuppa.

    Boiling a generous cup of water took about 3 minutes. One thing I noticed about the stove was how quiet it was when running. Dinner was chicken curry. 1 1/2c water was brought to the boil and 3/4c rice added and allowed to boil for another 2 1/2min when the meths ran out. Then I wrapped the rice billy up in my fleece and allowed the rice to absorb the rest of the water. Meanwhile a can of chop chop chicken, some veges, curry paste and coconut cream were mixed and heated up in a second billy. Again brought to the boil for a couple of minutes then allowed to rest. After about 20 min, both billies were reheated and consumed. Lovely!

    In the morning I used the stove again just to heat water up for the morning hot chocolate.

    From what I've read on the web from almost exclusively American long distance hikers most of their cooking (if they cook, some live on sports energy bars for every meal of the day) they use the alcohol stove to boil water and pour it into a large ziploc bag with some dehydrated food and allow it to sit, so my "simple" meal seems quite complex for the stove's intended purpose.

    Some operational notes: It is really important to find flat ground to cook on. The stove is quite narrow and the billy seemed somewhat unbalanced unless level.

    You are forever measuring out 2 tablespoons of meths into the stove. Just make sure the stove is cool first before adding more fuel to it.

    A windshield is an absolute essential with these types of stoves (or for any other type has well).

    Fuel usage: 1 and a bit cups of water boil in 3 min using 2/3 a film cannister (20ml meths)

    2 cups of water boil in five minutes using 30ml meths (1 film cannister) and continue boiling for 2:30 min afterwards.

    Chicken curry mixture used 2 cannisters (60ml)

    Total fuel use for an easy summer weekend hikewas 170ml. A 1 litre bottle of meths would last 6 days or a week if you rationed the cuppas somewhat.

    The energy density of meths is lower, only 2/3's IIRC than that of white spirit or gas so alcohol stoves have the weight advantage (aside from performance and cost comparisons) for trips of about 4-5 days or less, otherwise a light gas stove would be better.

    Super Cat Stove:
    Link: http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html
    Is that a torch in your pocket or are you just pleased to see me?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •