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Thread: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

  1. #1

    Default Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Hey all,

    Have enjoyed all the lurking and learning from everyone here on this forum... I will say my 'geeky' side has come out, and I now have a BC900, C9000 and a GT power A8, along with a bunch of Eneloops. I also picked up a few packs of the Tenergy LSD's, as I have used their 2300 mAh NiMh for a few years, and I thought I would see how they do.

    My initial testing was done with the BC900 (as I didn't have the C9000 until just a few weeks ago), and I came up with the following:

    After running thru the discharge/refresh function the Eneloops (AA) came to:

    Batt 1 2 3 4
    2110 2160 2130 2140

    Discharge after 30 days:

    Batt 1 2 3 4
    1803 1845 1833 1829

    which is
    .854 .854 .860 .854

    The Tenergy (AA's) are as follows

    Initial 1 2 3 4
    2000 2010 2030 2060

    Disch 1 2 3 4
    1757 1772 1745 1793

    which is
    .879 .882 .860 .870


    Very encouraging from a 30 day standpoint, the downsides are the initial capacity and the sustained voltage, which for the Tenergy's was about .08 lower throughout the process than the Eneloops.

    AAA tests below (at .25 Amp discharge) for 30 days:

    Eneloop 1 2 3 4 ........ Tenergy 1 2 3 4
    Initial 841 838 831 844........ 772 772 754 770
    Disch 747 759 753 770........ 714 721 697 725
    Ratio .888 .906 .912 .925 ....... .925 .934 .924 .942


    Again, very encouraging, except for the initial capacity, and the discharge voltage was only about .05 lower than the Eneloops.

    My apologies that I don't have any curves for you, as the Navy moved my transfer date waaaaay up, and I had to leave my precious testing behind. (my wife thinks I'm playing mad scientist in my office, what with the glowing lights of the C9000 and the GT A8). All I have with me currently is the BC900 and the batteries in this initial test, as I was determined to at least finish my initial 30 day check.

    I had started working on the differences between doing the IEC charging on the C9000 vs the A8, as well as determining a good ratio for comparing the BC900 results vs the C9000, as the BC900 does give me better numbers on capacity than the C9000, but it also does charge up past the 1.47 voltage limit, which I believe was limiting the full charge on the batteries, especially the Eneloop's. Annnnd, since I had done my initial capacity tests with the BC900, I wanted a way to compare at least close to Apples to Apples with the results that either machine spit out (at least on a discharge function).

    Anywho, I have since found that with a good IEC conforming charge on the Tenergy's their capacity on the BC900 goes to around the 2100 range, while the Eneloops hit 2200 (for the AA's) while the AAA Tenergy's hit 830ish, and the Eneloop 860ish.

    When I get to my new duty station, my mad scientist cap will go back on, and I'll be able to get back to my machinations.

    Overall though, I am fairly pleased with these initial results (and the IEC conforming capacity), and if I can't find Eneloops, I would be very satisfied with the Tenergy LSD's, especiall the AAA's, as you can pick those up for very reasonable prices compared to the Eneloops (or even other brands that I have shopped for).


    Ross

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Hello Ross,

    Welcome to CPF.

    I think we all will agree that the Eneloop cells hold a higher voltage during discharge, but all the low self discharge cells seem to work well.

    Nice work.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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    Flashaholic gilly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Good work on the testing.

    Welcome to CPF. Are you a NFO? If so, what's your 'ride'?

    -Former jarhead helo bubba asking...
    Last edited by gilly; 04-13-2008 at 07:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Perfect, I have been looking for some data on the Tenergy LSD's. This is the first I have been able to find. Thanks.

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    FWIW, I've found the Tenergy's to be decently LSD before it was a selling point. I wonder if they're really LSD or just relabeled 'regular' Tenergy's.

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by Probedude View Post
    FWIW, I've found the Tenergy's to be decently LSD before it was a selling point. I wonder if they're really LSD or just relabeled 'regular' Tenergy's.
    Before finding battery and charger information on this site I read a fair amount on the All-Battery.com forum.

    When reading posts on their forum I've wondered the same thing. Users of their regular 2500mAh NiMHs have complained that they don't approach their stated capacity. And that their 2300mAh LSD cells don't approach their stated capacity. Others have complained that a fair percentage of their cells won't hold any charge.

    The company seems to be always pushing for testimonials and good reviews of their products with bribes of discount coupons or store credit.

    Also, some of the testimonials are a little suspicious... most of them seem to have been written in "broken" English... my gut feeling is that they were written by Chinese workers trying to sound Western. I may be wrong but that was my gut impression. While I don't have any personal experience I am still skeptical of Tenergy.

    I would really like to know if their listed LSDs are infact LSDs.
    Last edited by Kankujoe; 04-14-2008 at 01:59 PM.
    KJ

  7. #7

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by Kankujoe View Post
    Before finding battery and charger information on this site I read a fair amount on the All-Battery.com forum.

    When reading posts on their forum I've wondered the same thing. Users of their regular 2500mAh NiMHs have complained that they don't approach their stated capacity. And that their 2300mAh LSD cells don't approach their stated capacity. Others have complained that a fair percentage of their cells won't hold any charge.

    The company seems to be always pushing for testimonials and good reviews of their products with bribes of discount coupons or store credit.

    Also, some of the testimonials are a little suspicious... most of them seem to have been written in "broken" English... my gut feeling is that they were written by Chinese workers trying to sound Western. I may be wrong but that was my gut impression. While I don't have any personal experience I am still skeptical of Tenergy.

    I would really like to know if their listed LSDs are infact LSDs.
    I have bought from Tenergy repeatedly and they are reliable. I have bought numerous standard cells and chargers from them such as 'C' cell NiCd as well as 'C' cell NiMh, 'D' cells NiMh, RCR123s, CR123, and 9 volt NiMh and primary Lithium 9 volt (1200 mA/hr) and all the cells were good except for (2) bad 9 volt Lithiums which they replaced without receiving the defective ones. They have good customer service and the quality of their cells I would rate as 'good to above average'. I haven't bought their LSD 'AA' yet because I stocked up on eneloops from the local costco, but after reading this thread I might buy a dozen or so just to test them out myself.

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by Kankujoe View Post
    Before finding battery and charger information on this site I read a fair amount on the All-Battery.com forum.

    When reading posts on their forum I've wondered the same thing. Users of their regular 2500mAh NiMHs have complained that they don't approach their stated capacity. And that their 2300mAh LSD cells don't approach their stated capacity. Others have complained that a fair percentage of their cells won't hold any charge.
    You've probably seen my posts on their forum then, also on RCGroups.
    My experience (from memory):
    - Their 2300mAH NiMH AA's were close to 2000-2100mAH on my CBAII
    - Their 2600mAH NiMH AA's were close to 1850-1950mAH on my CBAII
    - Their later 2600mAH NiMH AA's were even less, 1750-1800mAH on my CBAII
    - Their SubC 3500mAH pack was ~3000mAH on my CBAII and dropped in capacity faster than I thought they should.
    - Their SubC 3800mAH 7.2V pack was ~2800-2900mAH on my CBAII and declined in capacity quickly.

    Ditto for their RCR123A LiFePO4 cells - low capacity measured vs what they are printed on the side.

    That said:
    - Their AA's do have a low self discharge. I just put a 9cell>3D holder together with a bunch of 2600mAH Tenergy NiMH AA's, they still measured 1.275V after sitting for approx 3 months. The 'odd' 9th battery I had to charge on my Lacross BC900 and it took 500mAH.
    - Their AA's are a great price if all you expect to get out of them is ~1900mAH. The majority of the public have no way to measure capacity and the batteries they're replacing are likely alkaline or another inexpensive and overrated cell.
    - Out of probably 80 AA's I've bought (I spot welded a bunch into transmitter packs) there were only ~ 4 that were high discharge
    - I wouldn't buy any of their Sub-C's anymore, nor their RCR123A's.
    Last edited by Probedude; 04-14-2008 at 10:46 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    I thought loosing 15% of the charge per month was for normal NimH batteries. Now you tell me this is for the Eneloops. How bad are the normal cells then. Do you have any to test?


  10. #10
    Flashaholic* VegasF6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    I think Eneloops lose more like 2-3% per month, no? There is at least one post going right now with a long term graph you should check.

    But according to the manufacturers claim I am looking at it says Eneloop 90% at 6 months, and 85% at one year. This package also shows regular nimh 75% at 6 months and 0% at 1 year.

  11. #11
    Flashaholic* Black Rose's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    I have a pair of June 2006 Eneloops that I discharged yesterday.

    According to my C9000, those cells still had just over 1300 mAh capacity left...not bad for a 22 month old cell.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Where can you buy Tenergy LSD AA's ?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    You can use code tb3871 to get 12 AA 2300mAh 12 AAA 1000mAh Ready To Use (R2U) Rechargeable NiMH Batteries with Compact Charger for $29.03 and free shipping. If don't want to order this option I would recommend you to use coupon code tenergydeals to get free shipping on orders over $ 10.

    This reply is not publicity. This is just what I recently received in an email from them. Some people do reviews to get money from them. I don't. I am not a chinesse doing "broken" English. My English is not good because I speak Spanish.

    Almost 90% of the batteries I am currently using are tenergy brand. Are cheap and not the best but work. I have almost 70 AA/AAA in all my daughter toys, my digital cameras, some motion sensors and all my AA and AAA flashlights.

    Juan C.

    EDITED to add the price that I forgot.
    Last edited by linterno; 04-15-2008 at 06:01 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Just to be clear, I have not, nor do I ever plan on, received any remuneration from All-Battery for doing my tests, I just have purchased quite a few cells over the years from them, and they do seem to be a good price/performance, especially in quantity orders.

    My "ride" is (has-been based on Sundowning) the S-3B Viking. 4 WESTPAC's and counting...

    Ross

  15. #15

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by Probedude View Post
    You've probably seen my posts on their forum then, also on RCGroups.
    My experience (from memory):
    - Their 2300mAH NiMH AA's were close to 2000-2100mAH on my CBAII
    - Their 2600mAH NiMH AA's were close to 1850-1950mAH on my CBAII
    - Their later 2600mAH NiMH AA's were even less, 1750-1800mAH on my CBAII
    - Their SubC 3500mAH pack was ~3000mAH on my CBAII and dropped in capacity faster than I thought they should.
    - Their SubC 3800mAH 7.2V pack was ~2800-2900mAH on my CBAII and declined in capacity quickly.

    Ditto for their RCR123A LiFePO4 cells - low capacity measured vs what they are printed on the side.

    That said:
    - Their AA's do have a low self discharge. I just put a 9cell>3D holder together with a bunch of 2600mAH Tenergy NiMH AA's, they still measured 1.275V after sitting for approx 3 months. The 'odd' 9th battery I had to charge on my Lacross BC900 and it took 500mAH.
    - Their AA's are a great price if all you expect to get out of them is ~1900mAH. The majority of the public have no way to measure capacity and the batteries they're replacing are likely alkaline or another inexpensive and overrated cell.
    - Out of probably 80 AA's I've bought (I spot welded a bunch into transmitter packs) there were only ~ 4 that were high discharge
    - I wouldn't buy any of their Sub-C's anymore, nor their RCR123A's.
    One thing that should be noted, is that most NiMh, as well as NiCd generally need about 50 to 100 cycles of charge discharge before they reach maximum capacity, so therefore it would be unfair to test cells right out of the package and disparage the manufacturer if the cell underperform by 10%. Secondly their capacity can be affected by how they are treated during those first 50 cycles. Many other brand that I have, also come short of their rated capacity and this includes Duracells, Energizers, Panasonic and a few others. Although I agree that Tenergy takes a bit more liberty in overrating the capacity. And I agree that for their pricing, the cells simply perform quite well.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by nfoboy View Post
    Just to be clear, I have not, nor do I ever plan on, received any remuneration from All-Battery for doing my tests, I just have purchased quite a few cells over the years from them, and they do seem to be a good price/performance, especially in quantity orders.

    My "ride" is (has-been based on Sundowning) the S-3B Viking. 4 WESTPAC's and counting...

    Ross
    Ross. I was absolutely not saying anything about you. I am sorry. I was saying about some other forums where I have read very good comments about them, something done clearly to get remuneration.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    No worries... didn't actually think you were, I just wanted to make sure that nobody else might think that was the case...

    Ross

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkpower View Post
    One thing that should be noted, is that most NiMh, as well as NiCd generally need about 50 to 100 cycles of charge discharge before they reach maximum capacity, so therefore it would be unfair to test cells right out of the package and disparage the manufacturer if the cell underperform by 10%.
    Here's my CBAII plots, several discharges when new. First charge was a forming charge, as was the last one.


    In comparison here's 5 discharges on new Tenergy 2300mAH NiMH cells. Yes a capacity increase can be seen but tops out after 4'ish discharge/charge cycles.


    Here's their RCR123A LiFePO4 cells. I bought 6 of them including a charger. All are similarly performing.

    Last edited by Probedude; 04-17-2008 at 12:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Yes, 3 - 6 charge/discharge cycles is all I've ever needed to reach maximum capacity from any rechargeable cell.
    I'm absolutely certain that I need another flashlight.

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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Hello Darkpower,

    The information on cycling to greater capacity comes from a graph that Sanyo published showing this.

    The graph showed an increase in capacity over about the first 150 cycles. It also showed that the increase was only around 5%.

    While it is true that the cells don't reach their maximum capacity until they have gone through several charge/discharge cycles, the amount of improvement is not that much.

    For example...

    If you have a 2600 mAh labeled cell, and find that after a few cycles it is only giving 1950 mAh, the best you can hope for that cell is an increase to around 2048 mAh over the next 150 cycles.

    In this case, it would be more accurate to label the cell as a 2000 mAh cell.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  21. #21

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Tom:

    Last year I bought 12 1000mAh AAA tenergy batteries. I charged those in my BC-900 and I got something between 250 and 300 mAh. I was really disapointed. Then I did a reflesh cycle and it improved to something closed to 400mAh. I thought, well, I am going to use them anyway. After the first heavy discharge (around 1Amp), the next time I charged, those got something close to 1000 mAh. Something important to mention is that the initial charge in the batteries was less than 0.7 volts when received from all-battery.com.

    What I mean is that the batteries finally reached the capacity closed to 1000 mAh after a deep and heavy discharge.

    I did a runtime test with my Romisen RC-W4 using these fully charged Tenergy 1000mAh AAAs and I got 160 minutes runtime. The amount of light from the RC-W4 after 2 hours and 20 minutes was a little bit less than my Romisen RC-G2 with lightly used batteries. I don't have anything to measure light.

    Juan C.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Quote Originally Posted by Probedude View Post
    Here's my CBAII plots, several discharges when new. First charge was a forming charge, as was the last one.


    In comparison here's 5 discharges on new Tenergy 2300mAH NiMH cells. Yes a capacity increase can be seen but tops out after 4'ish discharge/charge cycles.


    Here's their RCR123A LiFePO4 cells. I bought 6 of them including a charger. All are similarly performing.

    Those charts may prove that Tenergy does nothing to perform a "forming" a charge at the factory before shipping. Where as Eneloops are not just pre-charged but they may have had several forming charges before leaving the factory, and that may explain why Tenergy cells come-up to their rated capacity after 4 or 5 charges. Perhaps that is where they are able to cut costs.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Tenergy vs Eneloop (AA and AAA) 30 day self-discharge

    Hello Juan,

    New NiMh cells should have a voltage above 1.0 volts. I just got some new cells and their voltage, right out of the pack, was 1.22 volts.

    In storage, cells will self discharge, and if there is some higher temperatures, that self discharge rate will be accelerated. When the cells voltage drops below 1.0 volts, there is an increased probability of damage from over discharging.

    These are the cells that heat up during charging and use, they register horrible capacity at first, and they have a tendency to false peak during charging. Sometimes you can recover them, but often they will not be "vibrant."

    When I grab a cell that comes out of the package at 1.2 volts, I can expect it to give me close to its full capacity after a charge/discharge cycle or two. Cells that drop below 1.0 volts often take several break in cycles, and often even then they are low on capacity.

    I think the problem is that during extended self discharge, some crystalline formations occur within the cell. This also occurs during extended trickle charging. You need to break this up to get the cell back to normal operation, and hope that the separator is not damaged in the process. At a very low state of charge, oxidation occurs within the cell, so your electrolyte becomes polluted, so this end up being a loose - loose situation.

    It appears that your refresh and deep discharge cycles succeeded in recovering the cell.

    When I receive cells that are below 1.0 volts, I usually send them back. I know how much work is involved in trying to recover them, and also know that it is not always successful.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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