Traffic Ticket on Red Light?

dudemar · Apr 18, 2008

Here's the story:

Me and my family live in California. My mom made a right turn on a red light at an intersection, nothing new, very typical in CA. A few days later she receives a photo of herself in the mail, face, plate # and all, along with a hefty ticket ($380 :poke:

). She was caught by a traffic camera at the intersection. I went for a drive through the same intersection today, and there were no signs prior to or at the intersection indicating a "Right Turn at Signal Only". The traffic light was not an "arrow", just the typical red, yellow and green light. I did find the lane she was in was a right turn lane, indicated by a big "right turn" arrow painted on the asphalt. However, IMO this does not imply a "Right Turn at Signal Only".

Now here's my question: did she do anything illegal? From what I can tell it looked perfectly fine to turn right, until I looked left and it was a blind intersection. I just don't think it's fair to ticket someone when there were no signs to indicate anyting.

Any opinions from CA LEOs' or anyone knowledgeable with this kind of thing would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Dudemar

BB · Apr 18, 2008

One of the cities just south of San Francisco (at Millbrae BART station), one of the red light cameras has apparently re-adjusted... It (apparently) requires the driver to come to a full stop before the crosswalk (or before the intersection mark), then proceed forward.

If, you slowly enter the crosswalk and stop before entering the intersection (no matter how slow), the camera appears to take two pictures...

For the last few months, the camera has been relatively inactive when I drive through it (maybe once or twice a week). Now, virtually every time I am at the intersection, it is snapping one two three sets of pictures (seems to take one just before the xwalk, and one "in the intersection"--if the person does not come to a dead stop first).

What the exact law is... Don't know. But I suspect that the camera's are probably calibrated to the exact law in most cases...

However, there was the time that a city (Dallas?) was making it up as they went along... The state law prohibited "Red Light" cameras from using the street marking as the point for writing a ticket--and so the city used some other settings for their cameras--which nobody knew and there was no law supporting it...

Or like this, six cities illegally shorten the yellow at Red Light Camera intersections.

Six cities have been busted recently for having an amber light that lasted less than the minimum timing at an intersection, and millions of dollars in fines have been collected when drivers went through the premature red and got caught on camera. Chattanooga, Tennessee; Dallas, Texas; Springfield, Missouri; Lubbock, Texas; Nashville, Tennessee; and Union City, California all cut the timing on their lights, and while some have paid back the fines, others have not. In Dallas, over $700,000 was collected in a matter of eight months, and in Tennessee the light timing was changed at only a few intersections, which just so happen to be the areas where local law enforcement set up traps.

While the millions of dollars in fines collected in these six cities is horrible, what's worse is that shorter amber lights mean more accidents and more injuries on the road. Hit the link below to read more information regarding the cities that were caught cheating, and if you get pulled over for blowing a red, make sure to time the light. The problem may not be you after all.

So, in the end, you probably need to know exactly what part of the vehicle code the ticket was written for, and go back to the code itself and see what the exact requirement is and if your Mom violated it...

I too will be interested to see what is the exact law (I got the double flash a couple weeks ago--I guess for stopping in the crosswalk before turning right on red--but it is possible the camera was partially blocked by a truck so they could not get a clear shot of the violation--I hope--& waiting).

-Bill

Bullzeyebill · Apr 18, 2008

Have you mom go to court and fight it. Right turns on a red signal llight are ok in CA unless indicated not ok at the intersection.

Bill

Marduke · Apr 18, 2008

I would guess that the traffic camera sense that she was running the light instead of just making a right on red. Should be simple enough to get thrown out in traffic court.

Empath · Apr 18, 2008

It's "right turn on red after stop." The turn is to be treated as if there is a stop sign there, with a complete stop, not as if there is a yield sign.

dudemar · Apr 18, 2008

Marduke said:
I would guess that the traffic camera sense that she was running the light instead of just making a right on red. Should be simple enough to get thrown out in traffic court.

I think you're right. There's just no reason why anybody would get a ticket for a right turn on red. I'm going to look up what law she broke and look into this some more.

Thanks,

Dudemar

Marduke · Apr 18, 2008

The ticket should specify the precise law she's being cited for.

geepondy · Apr 18, 2008

Why such an expensive ticket? $380 for failing to come to a complete stop before turning right?

dudemar · Apr 18, 2008

I agree, a speeding ticket for 80 mph costs about the same! Sounds ridiculous, will definitely look into it when my mom gets home.

BB · Apr 18, 2008

California, state and local governments, (and other places too, I am sure) have found that raising fines (and in this case) automating the writing of tickets has dramatically increased revenue...

Just driving in a carpool lane can get you a minimum of $271 (or is it higher now?) fine. Also, with traffic cameras, the fines are split with the companies that operate the cameras.

If you want something to really steam you off here in California--about 1,000,000 public employees have special license plates (actually DMV records) where their names and addresses are hidden and not available to toll/red light cameras. Also, frequently police, when finding the "masked" records, will not issue tickets as professional courtesy...

It's 1:45 p.m. on a Wednesday in February and a Toyota Camry is driving west on the 91 Express Lanes, for free, for the 470th time.
The electronic transponder on the dashboard – used to bill tollway users – is inactive. The Camry's owners, airport traffic officer Rudolph Duplessis and his wife, Loretta, have never had a toll road account, officials say.

They've never received a violation notice in the mail, either. Their car is registered as part of a state program which hides their home address on Department of Motor Vehicles records. The agency that operates the tollway does not have legal access to their address.

Their Toyota is one of 996,716 vehicles registered to motorists who are affiliated with 1,800 state and local agencies and who are allowed to shield their addresses under the Confidential Records Program.

An Orange County Register investigation has found that the program, designed 30 years ago to protect police from criminals, has been expanded to cover hundreds of thousands of public employees – from police dispatchers to museum guards – who face little threat from the public. Their spouses and children can get the plates, too.

This has happened despite warnings from state officials that the safeguard is no longer needed because updated laws have made all DMV information confidential to the public....

•Vehicles with protected license plates can run through dozens of intersections controlled by red light cameras and breeze along the 91 toll lanes with impunity.
•Parking citations issued to vehicles with protected plates are often dismissed because the process necessary to pierce the shield is too cumbersome.
•Some patrol officers let drivers with protected plates off with a warning because the plates signal that the drivers are "one of their own" or related to someone who is.
...
But by the time a California Highway Patrol officer recognized Loretta Duplessis' Camry from a "heavy hitter" list of toll evaders and pulled her over Feb. 27, the couple had racked up $34,805.95 in penalties from OCTA, according to a note the officer wrote on her citation. The couple did not respond to repeated requests for comment, including a note left on their front door in Riverside County...

Follow up article here.

Meanwhile, others expressed surprise at the scope of the protection. The Register found that since the DMV began withholding addresses of police in 1978, lawmakers have expanded the coverage to include everyone from politicians and police dispatchers to meter maids and museum guards. Their family members are shielded, too.

How many state and local government employees are there in California... From 2006 study (PDF), CA has ~486/10,000 state residents. 36,457,549 in 2006--Or, about 1.7 million... You do the rest of the math...

Government by the people--or simply subjects... :green:

-Bill

Mike Painter · Apr 18, 2008

geepondy said:
Why such an expensive ticket? $380 for failing to come to a complete stop before turning right?

Absolutely. I used to drive a taxi for senior citizens and got in teh habit of watching to see if people ran red lights, i.e. enter the intestection after the yellow turned to red. Since usually they cam from behind me and I had time to stop, so did they.
Two or three a week was the norm.
Now I see it almost everytine I drive into town and not stopping on red is *very* common.
You have to draw a line and that line is a complete stop. Anything else leads to long court battles about the speed at which the were going when they almost stopped.

I got back into the habit a few years ago in San Diego. A car came from well behind me and busted a light at about 50 a few seconds after the red. I got about half way through "I see why they have cameras now" when a seond one came through at probably 60.

JetskiMark · Apr 18, 2008

The exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. He tried to fight it and they showed him a video. He slowed way down before turning, to about one mph, but did not come to a complete stop. He was guilty.

What intersection was this at? My friend got tagged at De Soto & Roscoe in Canoga Park.

I don't like the cameras, but they are effective. I will hit the brakes on a yellow, even though I know I would make it.

After hearing of my friend's misfortune, I would not want to turn right on a red at a camera intersection.

Big brother is watching you....

Regards,
Mark

Diesel_Bomber · Apr 19, 2008

Similar to what Empath said, it's common here for people to stop at a stop light or stop sign after having rolled through the crosswalk, simply because they can't see cross traffic well enough to safely pull out into traffic from behind the crosswalk. The legal and correct way is to come to a complete stop before the crosswalk, then pull forward to where you can see and stop again to wait for a gap in traffic to pull into. A red light camera calibrated for the crosswalk or other painted line would read rolling through to a point where you can see as a car running the red light, regardless of the fact that the car stopped 4 feet later.

Red light cameras recently came to my city. Lots of people complaining. The yellow lights haven't been shortened, so I'm all for them. A red light really does mean STOP, not "only four more cars."

:buddies:

dudemar · Apr 19, 2008

Looked it up, turns out it's 21453a, or "Faliure to Stop at Red Light". I did a bit of research, turned up a good amount of info for anyone who's interested:

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamscameras.htm#San_Leandro

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamslinksref.htm

San Leandro (aka Scam Leandro) is where my mom got the ticket. In the second link, use your "Find" option in your browser to search for "# 27".

IMHO the "Letter of the Law" is anal as it is, yet we have traffic cameras which can't even judge how fast you were going, much less stopped. In the context of my mom's situation (right turns on red) this is just downright ridiculous. $380 for not stopping exactly at the line, completely vile IMO.

Ugh, I'm already sick and tired of researching this, I feel like I waded through mud and muck. I guess I've learned to be more careful at "Photo Enforced" intersections. Thanks so much guys for all your help and input!

Dudemar

adamlau · Apr 19, 2008

I was tagged for the very offense via camera last year. Full stop before the crosswalk before proceeding with a right turn. Period .

GadgetProne · Apr 19, 2008

dudemar said:
Looked it up, turns out it's 21453a, or "Faliure to Stop at Red Light". I did a bit of research, turned up a good amount of info for anyone who's interested:

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamscameras.htm#San_Leandro

http://www.highwayrobbery.net/redlightcamslinksref.htm

San Leandro (aka Scam Leandro) is where my mom got the ticket. In the second link, use your "Find" option in your browser to search for "# 27".

IMHO the "Letter of the Law" is anal as it is, yet we have traffic cameras which can't even judge how fast you were going, much less stopped. In the context of my mom's situation (right turns on red) this is just downright ridiculous. $380 for not stopping exactly at the line, completely vile IMO.

Ugh, I'm already sick and tired of researching this, I feel like I waded through mud and muck. I guess I've learned to be more careful at "Photo Enforced" intersections. Thanks so much guys for all your help and input!

Dudemar

Hey Look for the No left Turn sign between 7-9am

Google Map 14862 Washington Ave (hit street view) Zoom past the truck!!!

Back in 92-93 I made the left turn and Motorcycle Cop stopped me, Hey there was a donut shop...guess he was close to home! I went to Church with an LT of San Leandro PD.....He said not worth fighting, Judge won't Listen!

By the Way The LT I mentioned above Here is His Daughter http://www.misscalifornia.org/archives/results/2002_results.html Nice Family!!

270winchester · Apr 19, 2008

wow, San Leandro must be REALLY desperate for income.

I stop fully at all turns before the first line before proceeding, but turn that into a 380 dollar ticket?

sigh. San Leandro used to be such a charming city to visit.:shakehead

Robocop · Apr 19, 2008

Empath is correct as most states allow right turn on red after a complete stop only. If going by the letter of the law here anything other than a complete stop rather turning right or left on red (left on one way to one way only) it is considered running a red light. So having said that the state could argue probably with success that she did indeed run a red light if a complete stop was not made.

Also saying there were no signs to indicate anything would not be a good defense to use. They will always use the driving test as the states defense here. On most written tests to obtain a license there are various common sense type questions. One common one is to say any right turn at an intersection controlled by a signal should be completed only after a complete stop. If one claims there were no sighns dictating the right turn on red they can always say "well maam did you not pass the written test when you obtained your license"....."this test clearly outlined the procedures for turning right on red and with no signs you know to follow the rules outlined in this test".

It is frustrating I know and clearly silly at times however traffic laws and fines are heavily protected by each state. Be assured the state will be prepared. With cameras I have seen some argue more successfully the workings of the camera rather than any posted signs. With any electronic device there are certain failure rates and as such some have shown mistakes or 'reasonable doubts" as to reliability of traffic monitoring devices.

This worked at first however most states keep detailed records of service and routine testing of cameras to defend this method of protesting a ticket. So as you see you are already at a disadvantage and all you can do is protest the charge and wish for luck.....if nothing else they may lessen the fine or offer some type of classes to prevent her driving record from being tarnished or keep it off your insurance. Good luck to you and if it helps any even as an officer I also feel these cameras are kind of a questionable way of bleeding motorists of their money.

TorchBoy · Apr 19, 2008

JetskiMark said:
After hearing of my friend's misfortune, I would not want to turn right on a red at a camera intersection.

Then you get tooted at, and then ... :poof:

mdocod · Apr 19, 2008

I seem to recall from the history books that it was an absurdly over enforced traffic violation system that triggered most revolutions in history... Get a bunch of people all in one place who've had a bogus ticket and they start a new country... right?

Traffic Ticket on Red Light?

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