Oh this is gonna be like a wet blanket at a bonfire hatred rally. Ya gotta love reality vs. hype. 
Everyone should be thrilled to see the USA is not in a recession
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Buster Bodine
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Ya gotta love reality vs. hype.
This is why I've become a Political Atheist. Republican or Democrat, nobody is crying foul about the shameless way the numbers are being juggled and more importantly, nobody is willing to even discuss doing anything meaningful to fix the economy.
Of course, decades of constant and unrelenting deficit spending have transformed the US Dollar, once the hardest of hard currencies, into nothing but fiat money which has value only because the American people have been conned into believing it has value. (Nobody else wants anything to do with it!) So I guess you can't blame the Gov for lying. After all, it's only the illusion of value which keeps the whole house of cards from falling. So essentially, the US Dollar is now based on nothing more than the gullability of the American people.
Destroy the illusion, destroy the economy. Despite what the talking heads say on Sunday morning, it's really that simple.
So here's the choice we face. Yell "FIRE!" in a burning building and create a panic, or sit quietly, hope nobody notices, and when your hair bursts into flames, try to keep the screaming to a minimum. It disturbs the neighbors.
Oh well, sic transit gloria mundi, right?
TIP AND RING
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LOL!!
Buster, may I use that as my new sigline??? I could not agree more with your entire post.Best Wishes,
T&R
NA8
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We all agree politicians are crooks, but there isn't much alternative. It appears white collar and/or organized crime has pretty much taken over a long time ago. Personally, I don't mind smart pirates. It's dumb pirates I don't like.
LED_Thrift
Flashlight Enthusiast
Great post Buster.
On the one hand I can't wait till we are rid of Little Prince Georgie and Darth Cheney, but on the other I don't know if any of the candidates will really be much better. Poor foreign policy, poor fiscal policy [huge deficit spending while cutting taxes], poor energy policy [Bushies latest plan for energy independence: drill for solar energy in Texas], and poor social policy [protect everyone from everything]. I hope the ship isn't too broke to fix.
On the one hand I can't wait till we are rid of Little Prince Georgie and Darth Cheney, but on the other I don't know if any of the candidates will really be much better. Poor foreign policy, poor fiscal policy [huge deficit spending while cutting taxes], poor energy policy [Bushies latest plan for energy independence: drill for solar energy in Texas], and poor social policy [protect everyone from everything]. I hope the ship isn't too broke to fix.
Political Atheist...that's a colorful cliche which I have heard before, but it is inherently bankrupt without a working flux capacitor. Whether we like it or not, we live in the current reality. You have a right to strenously object to the fiat maelstrom, but in the end you will be flattened with the rest of us lemmings.
Unless you are sitting near the back door, there is also a very good reason not to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theatre whereupon a pyrotechnical conflagration is lacking. Ultimately, everything in life is a house of cards. It matters not if your pockets are lined with gold, bulging with the hardest of currencies, or stuffed with a fiat of paper feathers. When your time here is done, you are returned to the dust from whence you came.
The thread was started to bring reality to the manipulative certainty of the current recessionary "FIRE" that has been trumpeted irresponsibly. All those ignoble sources with their wistful proclamations should now be seen for the specious charlatans they truly are. Pesky things, those facts can be.
Unless you are sitting near the back door, there is also a very good reason not to yell "FIRE" in a crowded theatre whereupon a pyrotechnical conflagration is lacking. Ultimately, everything in life is a house of cards. It matters not if your pockets are lined with gold, bulging with the hardest of currencies, or stuffed with a fiat of paper feathers. When your time here is done, you are returned to the dust from whence you came.
The thread was started to bring reality to the manipulative certainty of the current recessionary "FIRE" that has been trumpeted irresponsibly. All those ignoble sources with their wistful proclamations should now be seen for the specious charlatans they truly are. Pesky things, those facts can be.
Art Vandelay
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The glass is half full.
"The economy is weak but not collapsing," said Lynn Reaser, chief economist at Bank of America's Investment Strategies Group. "A recession can't be ruled out, although the stars are not lined up at this point to definitively say one way or the other."
"The economy is weak but not collapsing," said Lynn Reaser, chief economist at Bank of America's Investment Strategies Group. "A recession can't be ruled out, although the stars are not lined up at this point to definitively say one way or the other."
Mike Painter
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Supernam
Enlightened
...as long as there's a flashlight in them, everything will be fine.
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
Pesky facts, eh? Ignoble sources? Wistful proclamations? And . . . this is the best . . . "specious charlatans"?
So, you'd say these describe me, then Lux? And now you think that your little link is showing me for what I "truly am"?
Tell me, what would that be?
You think I'm part of a "bonfire hatred rally"?
Seriously?
Because, for starters, here's a quote you seemed to miss from your article:
So, gee, they're all charlatans and manipulators at a hatred rally, are they?
Tell me, Lux, do you understand what inflation means? Do you understand what a "falling dollar" means? Because, here's a fact for you: over the past year the dollar has lost 10 percent of its value as measured by the Consumer Price index (which some economists say underestimates the true inflation rate). So an increase of .6 percent could be entirely due to inflation, Lux. .6 percent could even mean an actual decline of the economy.
But in any case, given all the crazy extreme rate cuts the Fed has been doing, it doesn't surpise me that a very mild growth is showing up. I'm rather certain that it's not a real growth at all.
You're posts are insulting, Lux. Those of us who disagree with you shouldn't all be labeled charlatans and manipulators and hate-mongers attending a bonfire. Couldn't we be more civil than that, please?
You really can't blame the current Administration or any since FDR.
Two words............Federal Reserve. It is neither Federal or a Reserve.
Some interesting quotes.
Thomas Jefferson said "A nation that prints , coins , and regulates it's own money can never be in debt. He goes on to say "The only time a nation can be in debt is when it's beholding to a PRIVATE BANK".
Our FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM is comprised of 12 PRIVATE BANKS.
Thomas Jefferson also said "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency , first by inflation and then by deflation , the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
Rep. Henry Gonzales ( D- Texas)
on March 11th 1994 during the special orders made these following statements regarding the Federal Reserve ,"I think though that for the benefit of my colleagues , so many who have expressed surprise when I have explained exactly what the Federal Reserve Board is. It is not a Government Agency. It is a private corporation."
....... "the day will come when the people in full knowledge will rise in wrath and indignation and chase all of these moneylenders that have sold out their inheritance from this temple of democracy."
Food for thought.
Two words............Federal Reserve. It is neither Federal or a Reserve.
Some interesting quotes.
Thomas Jefferson said "A nation that prints , coins , and regulates it's own money can never be in debt. He goes on to say "The only time a nation can be in debt is when it's beholding to a PRIVATE BANK".
Our FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM is comprised of 12 PRIVATE BANKS.
Thomas Jefferson also said "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency , first by inflation and then by deflation , the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
Rep. Henry Gonzales ( D- Texas)
on March 11th 1994 during the special orders made these following statements regarding the Federal Reserve ,"I think though that for the benefit of my colleagues , so many who have expressed surprise when I have explained exactly what the Federal Reserve Board is. It is not a Government Agency. It is a private corporation."
....... "the day will come when the people in full knowledge will rise in wrath and indignation and chase all of these moneylenders that have sold out their inheritance from this temple of democracy."
Food for thought.
JS, it should be VERY CLEAR that no one in particular was singled out in my post, so I'm not sure why again you felt the need to move it into a personal matter....but it is quite distasteful. Yes there is intense and repeated trashing and hatred of President Bush and conservative viewpoints in these Cafe forums, and little tolerance for anyone who has opposing viewpoints. In any case, I started this thread to report the FACTS.
The fact of how a recession is defined is independent of anyone's opinion or suspicion, including economists quoted in my link which of course I read. It simply requires two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Period.
There have now been 6 1/2 YEARS of consecutive positive growth quarters. Last two quarters grew at 0.6%. (Emphasis on "grew")
Once again with such vitriolic responses PERSONALLY directed at me with no justification, and your status as a moderator, I can only withdraw and not post further in this thread. Congratulations again.
The fact of how a recession is defined is independent of anyone's opinion or suspicion, including economists quoted in my link which of course I read. It simply requires two consecutive quarters of negative growth. Period.
There have now been 6 1/2 YEARS of consecutive positive growth quarters. Last two quarters grew at 0.6%. (Emphasis on "grew")
Once again with such vitriolic responses PERSONALLY directed at me with no justification, and your status as a moderator, I can only withdraw and not post further in this thread. Congratulations again.
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js
Flashlight Enthusiast
Lux,
I know I have told you at least once that I will never use my status as moderator to further any debate I am involved in, so I don't understand why you bring it up. What does it have to do with anything? I am, as a CPF member, allowed an opinion of my own. I do not always wear my moderator hat.
Now, that said, it was NOT clear that your post was so diffuse and general in nature. THAT should be obvious.
Seriously, Lux, you can't expect to use all the sorts of terms that you did in your posts and then be surprised if you ruffle some feathers. Congratulations on me? Fine. If so, then congratulations on you, too, Lux. This is like classic passive agressive technique here, in my opinion.
Your fact wasn't presented neutrally at all. If the main reason you started this thread was to report the facts, you wouldn't have titled your freaking link "OK this is gonna be like a wet blanket at a bonfire hatred rally." And you wouldn't have then gone on in the very next sentence to say "You gotta love reality vs. hype." But, even better, let me just quote you back to you: here is why you started this thread:
You get upset with "intense and repeated trashing and hatred of President Bush and conservative viewpoints in these Cafe forums"? Fine. Well, I get upset with statements like those you made above. I happen to agree with those "charlatans". I'll go further: I think they are downplaying our current situation.
As for your contention that there is little tolerance for those with opposing view points, I can't see where you would draw that conclusion except that a lot of people disagree with you. Disagreeing with you is not the same as not tolerating an opposing view point. Disagreement is part of what happens when opposing view points meet.
As for the "fact" of recession, I don't argue with the definition. I simply am pointing out that real growth must be determined after adjusting for inflation.
You can't walk into a grey area like this, spout a link and a few facts in obnoxious language, and then get all indignant and take the moral high ground and go pouting away at the first unpleasantness.
Come back and talk about this, Lux. I'm not sending you away. But I'm not going to tone down my language until you tone down yours. And just like you, I get ruffled when someone attacks something with which I agree.
That's life, Lux. Either deal with it, or not, but I'm not taking the blame for this situation, Lux. Not this time. And I'll be back again the next time you post inflammatory material like this. And any time after that.
On the other hand, if you had just presented your link in slightly less sarcastic and insulting language, I wouldn't even have posted here. You set the tone on this one, Lux. Not me.
Supernam
Enlightened
I'm no economist, so I had to read the posts over a couple of times to understand what's going on here. Also, the big words threw me off.
I believe Lux originally wanted to say "Told you so" to everyone who kept on saying the "R" word when the economy is in fact by definition, not in a recession. In many ways I agree that the media in particular has thrown the word around a little too much. In a way, they (the media), scared consumer confidence down the drain.
JS's retort is basically saying, screw technicalities, our dollar is junk and getting junkier. Basically, you don't need the "R" word to experience the same effects. I see this viewpoint also. The weakening dollar and inflation go hand in hand with recession as far as I am concerned. As far as I know, if we have negative growth, then our dollar will be/get weaker.
The numbers could have gone either way. In reality, what we experience as consumers would not have changed had the report showed a -0.6% instead of a +0.6%. Gas still costs around $4, food is more expensive, and companies are going out of business. In a way, I don't see how it is important for me to KNOW about .06% growth anyway other than for trivial knowledge. Doesn't change a thing.
*edit to add: Guys I know it's easy to get feathers ruffled as you call it, but this is just argument like in college. You can argue just the facts, but your argument would lack personality without your rhetoric. Lux was using colorful language and expression. JS I completely understand you point of view also, but I wouldn't be offended by his rhetoric and choice of words. I loved college because we can argue all day, but we don't get angry at each other. I think the same should hold true here. We're adults.
I believe Lux originally wanted to say "Told you so" to everyone who kept on saying the "R" word when the economy is in fact by definition, not in a recession. In many ways I agree that the media in particular has thrown the word around a little too much. In a way, they (the media), scared consumer confidence down the drain.
JS's retort is basically saying, screw technicalities, our dollar is junk and getting junkier. Basically, you don't need the "R" word to experience the same effects. I see this viewpoint also. The weakening dollar and inflation go hand in hand with recession as far as I am concerned. As far as I know, if we have negative growth, then our dollar will be/get weaker.
The numbers could have gone either way. In reality, what we experience as consumers would not have changed had the report showed a -0.6% instead of a +0.6%. Gas still costs around $4, food is more expensive, and companies are going out of business. In a way, I don't see how it is important for me to KNOW about .06% growth anyway other than for trivial knowledge. Doesn't change a thing.
*edit to add: Guys I know it's easy to get feathers ruffled as you call it, but this is just argument like in college. You can argue just the facts, but your argument would lack personality without your rhetoric. Lux was using colorful language and expression. JS I completely understand you point of view also, but I wouldn't be offended by his rhetoric and choice of words. I loved college because we can argue all day, but we don't get angry at each other. I think the same should hold true here. We're adults.
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PhantomPhoton
Flashlight Enthusiast
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome.
--George Orwell
I was just reading an article about a 1,000,000 fine being passed down in Canada. My initial reaction (as has been conditioned over the past couple decades) was "pffft thats like 10,000 American," after seeing it was Canadian Dollars. Just a politically incorrect gut reaction that was in no way accurate I know. But then I remembered that the Canadian dollar is about equal to an American dollar now.
Doh!
Something is just not right. When the Fed continues to print more and more money whenever we ask for it, but that money is not backed by gold, or silver, etc but instead propped up on credit; when the government has to continue borrowing from China; and when other countries have started refusing to lend us more money; -- There is a problem, and someone is trying really really hard to cover it up. Continuing to spin and trumpet any little, indefinite tidbit to those who don't pay attention they hope to put off the problems as long as they can.
--George Orwell
I was just reading an article about a 1,000,000 fine being passed down in Canada. My initial reaction (as has been conditioned over the past couple decades) was "pffft thats like 10,000 American," after seeing it was Canadian Dollars. Just a politically incorrect gut reaction that was in no way accurate I know. But then I remembered that the Canadian dollar is about equal to an American dollar now.
Doh!Something is just not right. When the Fed continues to print more and more money whenever we ask for it, but that money is not backed by gold, or silver, etc but instead propped up on credit; when the government has to continue borrowing from China; and when other countries have started refusing to lend us more money; -- There is a problem, and someone is trying really really hard to cover it up. Continuing to spin and trumpet any little, indefinite tidbit to those who don't pay attention they hope to put off the problems as long as they can.
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
I'm no economist, so I had to read the posts over a couple of times to understand what's going on here. Also, the big words threw me off.
I believe Lux originally wanted to say "Told you so" to everyone who kept on saying the "R" word when the economy is in fact by definition, not in a recession. In many ways I agree that the media in particular has thrown the word around a little too much. In a way, they (the media), scared consumer confidence down the drain.
JS's retort is basically saying, screw technicalities, our dollar is junk and getting junkier. Basically, you don't need the "R" word to experience the same effects. I see this viewpoint also. The weakening dollar and inflation go hand in hand with recession as far as I am concerned. As far as I know, if we have negative growth, then our dollar will be/get weaker.
The numbers could have gone either way. In reality, what we experience as consumers would not have changed had the report showed a -0.6% instead of a +0.6%. Gas still costs around $4, food is more expensive, and companies are going out of business. In a way, I don't see how it is important for me to KNOW about .06% growth anyway other than for trivial knowledge. Doesn't change a thing.
*edit to add: Guys I know it's easy to get feathers ruffled as you call it, but this is just argument like in college. You can argue just the facts, but your argument would lack personality without your rhetoric. Lux was using colorful language and expression. JS I completely understand you point of view also, but I wouldn't be offended by his rhetoric and choice of words. I loved college because we can argue all day, but we don't get angry at each other. I think the same should hold true here. We're adults.
Good post, supernam. For the record, I wasn't offended with Lux's rhetoric or choice of words--but I was ruffled and uppity and ready to argue it with verve and vivacity. Something so fundamental as the value of our currency and inflation must be taken into account when stating "facts". And acting as if this link was like a wet blanket on a bon fire was(is) to my mind, ridiculous. So far so good.
Enter Lux's parentally disapproving post disciplining a potty mouthed child. Now I'm angry. Lux doesn't get to talk to me that way. If he can dish it out, he needs to be able to take it. You wouldn't, for example, walk into a Boston pub and say that a certain popular sports team sucks and then get all indignant when you got some energetic responses.
I don't accept Lux's take on my actions and my post. I don't accept Lux's criticism of me. I don't grant Lux the moral high ground.
I'm happy to debate and argue, but there's got to be some measure and give and take to it. It can't be that the least little thing makes someone storm off in a huff.
Anyway, back on topic, I think that the "R" word probably does get bandied about by the press too much. But at the same time, they really haven't made it at all clear what our current situation really is.
And I think people deserve the truth; deserve to understand the basis of our crazy economy and money supply. I refuse to be cowed by an admonishment not to disturb the coyote walking on thin air beyond the cliff, otherwise he'll fall. Sorry, but we're way beyond that now. The coyote is going to fall, and what the fed is doing now is just making things worse for the long run.
js
Flashlight Enthusiast
PhantomPhoton said:
Yes. Nicely concise summary. Especially about the cover up part. The "manipulation" isn't being done by those pointing out that the Emperor has no clothes. No. The manipulation is being done by the Fed and the government--BOTH parties, for decades now.
powernoodle
Flashlight Enthusiast
Its hogwash that we have to borrow money from China. We don't. We are doing so only because of the choice to engage in grotesque overspending. It could end today if we elected fiscal conservatives.
And it should be obvious by now that the strength of the dollar rests not on a pile of gold bullion but on the strength of American system of government and the resilience of the American people.
Some folks are always eager - eager - for doom and gloom. Illusory global warming, illusory "recession", illusory Y2K, illusory bird flu, on and on. And in virtually every case, its proven to be hogwash. But by then the doom and gloomers have already moved on to the next illusion.
This demonstrably non-existent "recession" is hogwash too. It simply does not exist.
I have spoken.
And it should be obvious by now that the strength of the dollar rests not on a pile of gold bullion but on the strength of American system of government and the resilience of the American people.
Some folks are always eager - eager - for doom and gloom. Illusory global warming, illusory "recession", illusory Y2K, illusory bird flu, on and on. And in virtually every case, its proven to be hogwash. But by then the doom and gloomers have already moved on to the next illusion.
This demonstrably non-existent "recession" is hogwash too. It simply does not exist.
I have spoken.
Buster Bodine
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2006
- Messages
- 87
LOL!!
First, thanks! I'm always pleased when somebody realizes I actually have a sense of humor. Most of the time, people just think I'm being a smartazz. If you want to use that in your sigline, be my guest, I'd be flattered.
Lux Luthor said:
Lux, I get the distinct feeling I've managed to insult you in some way but for the life of me, I can't figure out how. Please accept that it is certainly not my intent to do so.
As for the "cliche" of Political Atheism, I've noticed oftentimes when someone dislikes a particular comment, it is called a cliche. If they like it, they refer to it as a "truism." Go figure.
Either way, I didn't claim to have coined the term. I don't remember where I first heard it but the moment I did, I realized it summed up my attitudes perfectly and adopted the term as my own. As for being "inherently bankrupt" I have no idea what you mean. Bankrupt in what way? Do you mean the term is devoid of meaning, or are you implying something else?
It doesn't seem to be devoid of meaning. I think its pretty clear what I mean. I have no faith in either the Demlicans or Republicrats. While I was once a staunch Republican and have never voted for any candidate who was not a Republican, I feel the Republican party has abandoned me and those who hold similar values. To put it as succinctly as possible, it appears the Republicans have decided the only way they can win an election is to become Democrats. Weak and ineffectual 5th carbon copy Democrats but Democrats none the less.
By the same token, the Democrats have made great efforts to steer clear of the "lunatic fringe" they once courted with such fervor. After several stunning defeats, they finally realized the extreme left in this country was not a large enough demographic to give them the wins they wanted. In response, they chose to take a seemingly more "middle of the road" stance in an effort to woo "Middle America" and more importantly, Corporate America, to their side of the ballot. In short, they are trying to act more like Republicans.
Neither party, all protestations to the contrary, has any desire to unscrew our currently well screwed economy.
As for the whole "flux capacitor" thing, uhm...
Okeydokey!
Oh, of this I am well aware. Otherwise, I'd sleep much better at night.
George Santayana is quoted as saying "Those who do not study their history are doomed to repeat it." The unspoken corrolary to this is, those of us who do study our history are doomed to repeat it right along side them.
So, I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make here, unless it was to say that by opting out of the whole political sham, I abdicate my right to comment. Something like the old bit about "If you don't vote, don't complain."
Well, I've voted in every election I have been able since the day I turned 18. (My first ballot was cast for Ronald Reagan and against Jimmy Carter.) I voted because I believed my vote made a difference. Because I believed it made a difference which party was in power, and which man sat in the big chair.
All experience hath shewn this is untrue. Perhaps the debate of that point would be better served with it's own thread.
To quote Lux once again...
LuxLuthor said:
Ah, now we're dealing in facts! I really like facts. Unfortunately, many people like to pick and choose which facts they wish to deal in. Kind of like now.
What you say in the above quote is true as far as it goes. Except for that "Period." at the end. You stopped way too soon.
Yes, "Recession" is currently defined as two consecutive quarters of "negative growth." Wow. talk about bankrupt terms! "Negative growth." I love it. Its like calling an inoperable brain tumor "Negative health." Call it what it is. LOSS!
Wow, that's an awfully slim margin of growth there. 6/10ths of 1%. WEEOOH! I'm gonna run right out and buy a new bass boat! (Not!) In fact, the margins have been pretty slim for most of that 6.5 year period you refer to as well.
The disheartening truth is, the only way the econowonks can come up with that laughably slim margin is by juggling the GDP and CPI numbers. One of the ways they do this, is (are you ready for this?) be excluding food and energy costs from their calculations!
Yup, that's right! The only way they get the numbers to show any growth at all, is by REMOVING all food and energy costs from their calculations and figuring those costs separately.
Don't believe me?
Go here, do the homework for yourself.
http://www.bls.gov
Be prepared to do a lot of heavy reading.
Now the question I put to those who insist we are not in a recession is this...
Do you really believe, if the cost of ALL food and ALL energy were factored into the equations, we would still be seeing this wonderous .6% growth?
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imfrogman
Newly Enlightened
As a moderator you should know that you attack the post, not the poster. In the above post you mention Lux's name 6 different times, paint it like you want but you are attacking the poster. If Lux would have done the same thing, no doubt he would have been banned.
Just like a typical liberal.
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